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Post by carolyn on May 8, 2016 18:58:35 GMT
Oh, it is so funny! I looked at this photo and thought "He's so cute! He looks friendly!" I didn't even realize this was an example of a "problem" photo.
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Post by High Priestess on May 9, 2016 0:35:01 GMT
Carolyn -- it just goes to show hosts have different responses. Elsewhere this was posted, one thought he looked like trouble, another thought he looked attractive and one other said they thought he looked arrogant. Some female hosts decline all single male guests! I thought, well-- what if he looks attractive, but is requesting to stay with a straight male guest -- that may present yet another set of problems --- do men get threatened by others who they perceive as wanting to out-dude them?
My own response to Greg is that I would probably (but not certainly) decline him for two reasons (1) in his photo he looks confrontational/arrogant, (2) I would have to ask him questions about his purpose of stay, and a few others, but he would probably not be the personality type I generally seek for a quiet, retreat-like setting and into which I obtain many students/researchers/introverts, and some interested in workshops, or meditation/spirituality.
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Post by becks on May 9, 2016 0:53:35 GMT
Becks, you mean where I said this?
Also, I think our culture is too much in the habit of dismissing people completely as "racists" when in fact they may have simply made one or more unfair/discriminatory decisions based on race in one instance, whereas this may not be their general pattern. Yes, I meant something like educated, Western, liberal US culture, perhaps First World Culture -- the "culture" one sees represented in articles in the mainstream media, predominant at major universities, an urban and educated culture, the culture issuing out of civil rights work, and out of the multicultural-diversity work and theories in academia, including Identity POlitics theory, the culture in government leadership, and the "values" of the more Democratic and liberal of my nation at least. As well as the culture that I find myself immersed in.
I dont' think that as hosts it is easy to escape the difficulty we are faced with, that we have to make decisions about who to accept, based on really very little information. ANd add to that, humans tend to be creatures of habit and who look for patterns. "I had a bad experience the last 3 times I _______ so I won't _____ any more." Fill in the blanks. It isn't skillful to make arrogant assumptions, but in fact that is what I am arguing that those who accused hosts and/or Airbnb of racism were doing in these various news stories, and the Harvard study. Making arrogant assumptions.
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Post by becks on May 9, 2016 0:54:36 GMT
Becks, you mean where I said this?
Also, I think our culture is too much in the habit of dismissing people completely as "racists" when in fact they may have simply made one or more unfair/discriminatory decisions based on race in one instance, whereas this may not be their general pattern. Yes, I meant something like educated, Western, liberal US culture, perhaps First World Culture -- the "culture" one sees represented in articles in the mainstream media, predominant at major universities, an urban and educated culture, the culture issuing out of civil rights work, and out of the multicultural-diversity work and theories in academia, including Identity POlitics theory, the culture in government leadership, and the "values" of the more Democratic and liberal of my nation at least. As well as the culture that I find myself immersed in.
I dont' think that as hosts it is easy to escape the difficulty we are faced with, that we have to make decisions about who to accept, based on really very little information. ANd add to that, humans tend to be creatures of habit and who look for patterns. "I had a bad experience the last 3 times I _______ so I won't _____ any more." Fill in the blanks. It isn't skillful to make arrogant assumptions, but in fact that is what I am arguing that those who accused hosts and/or Airbnb of racism were doing in these various news stories, and the Harvard study. Making arrogant assumptions.
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Post by High Priestess on May 9, 2016 0:58:38 GMT
I agree Andrew, that in the end, whether Airbnb renting contains institutional racism or individual cases of racism, and regardless to what extent this occurs ( I dont'see such things occuring on AIrbnb any MORE than we see these problems in society in general) I dont' think there is a convenient way to "solve" this. (I have some ideas for things that could help, though).
I tend to resent it when folks take a widespread social issue such as racism, sexism, heterosexism, or other phenomena such as housing crisis issues, and find ways to "scapegoat" Airbnb over that -- as if there were more of these problems associated with Airbnb than elsewhere in the whole society. Airbnb is a convenient target to beat up on for many people -- but Airbnb shouldn't have to apologize for issues that are pervasive in society and have existed long before it arose. It's polite of Airbnb leaders to respond to complaints with regard to these racism issues that have been raised, and express concern to try to make the system fair and open to all, but mostly the corporation itself cannot do that, since the business is that of the millions of hosts.
I do actually think there are some things Airbnb the company could do to help with race issues -- one would be, to continue to have advertisements/videos that show for instance a black guest staying at a white person's/family's home, and vice versa -- white guest in black family -- as well as Indian guest in black family, black guest in Asian family -- and so on. Airbnb is in the business of "depicting" hospitality -- through imagery, stories, videos -- and so they can try to do that in ways that can influence and advance racial harmony. Another way to work on this issue would be to encourage discussion on these topics among hosts. Maybe this can be done vis a vis discussions of "cultures". Or in the "Experiences" offerings that are to come later this year, maybe there will be more opportunity to go in this direction. Then too, Airbnb can do more to promote discussion/education among hosts about how they select guests, what they look for in accepting guests, which would help hosts not have to decline unskillfully, eg declining based on broad categories like age, race, sexual orientation. THe host community does this education but Airbnb could support this effort with workshops, events.
It might be pretty daring, perhaps over-bold or risky, but to have a "workshop" where various hosts were talking about how they chose guests, and showed sample fictitious material from fictitious guests -- including photo, message, verifications,profile statement , etc -- this could include examples of people from different races, and could serve as a demonstration that more goes into many decisions than mere race. HOsts need to understand the nuance and subtlety with which screening for guests can be conducted -- though not all hosts use a nuanced approach.
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Post by becks on May 9, 2016 1:18:52 GMT
I tried to quote your post, Deborah, but couldn't seem to manage it sorry. Yes, that was it. But there are many nuances within "educated, western, liberal culture". The US has a very different culture to the multi-culturalism in the UK, to my mind. I am often stunned by the focus on race that comes from the US, for example, and the hostility towards mixed-race partnerships. Nearer to home, I sometimes have difficulty with attitudes from my neighbouring country England. You might laugh but it's real. I was nearly arrested once for challenging a man who insulted my young son for having red hair and being Scottish. Yes, I probably challenged him a bit too strongly.... but it was a culmination of years of snide derogatory remarks, plus of course anyone who insults my child does so at their peril. The reality is that some cultures are deemed more worthy than others by the "mainstream". It causes a lot of problems. As an Airbnb host, and in my life generally, I tend to search for the good and don't really think too much about how this person could potentially be bad. I fundamentally disagree with you, by the way, about the photo of the guy who "tricked" the host. He looks like a nice guy to me. Very nice, actually I'd host him and wish I was 20 years younger! You've commented on people's photos before now, saying that they look 'dodgey' or whatever. Surely, as a psychologist, you must know that such things are intrinsically subjective? Your dodgey is my nice. Your nice is my nightmare. After hundreds of guests I've concluded that profile photos mean absolutely nothing at all. Absolutely NOTHING. In my experience there is no correlation between a nice smiley face and a good guest, none at all.
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Post by High Priestess on May 9, 2016 1:32:07 GMT
I tried to quote your post, Deborah, but couldn't seem to manage it sorry. Yes, that was it. But there are many nuances within "educated, western, liberal culture". The US has a very different culture to the multi-culturalism in the UK, to my mind. I am often stunned by the focus on race that comes from the US, for example, and the hostility towards mixed-race partnerships. Nearer to home, I sometimes have difficulty with attitudes from my neighbouring country England. You might laugh but it's real. I was nearly arrested once for challenging a man who insulted my young son for having red hair and being Scottish. Yes, I probably challenged him a bit too strongly.... but it was a culmination of years of snide derogatory remarks, plus of course anyone who insults my child does so at their peril. The reality is that some cultures are deemed more worthy than others by the "mainstream". It causes a lot of problems. As an Airbnb host, and in my life generally, I tend to search for the good and don't really think too much about how this person could potentially be bad. I fundamentally disagree with you, by the way, about the photo of the guy who "tricked" the host. He looks like a nice guy to me. Very nice, actually I'd host him and wish I was 20 years younger! You've commented on people's photos before now, saying that they look 'dodgey' or whatever. Surely, as a psychologist, you must know that such things are intrinsically subjective? Your dodgey is my nice. Your nice is my nightmare. After hundreds of guests I've concluded that profile photos mean absolutely nothing at all. Absolutely NOTHING. In my experience there is no correlation between a nice smiley face and a good guest, none at all. I know becks that you and I disagree on photos -- I believe I recall you saying in posts on other threads, that you didn't think it was quite right to make any judgements based on photos of guests at all. That is a valid perspective that some hosts will have. I'll admit that one can be misled by photos -- one sees something there that turns out not to be there in the real person. PHotos can make a person look better than they really are, or perhaps worse. Yes, this is not an exact science. But then the whole screening process is difficult, and we have to make a decision about a person based on what amounts to very little information. So we can only do our best, and yes it is subjective. THe whole screening process is probably rather subjective for many.
I use photos to provide me some information --- and I do believe they can provide important information --- but I do not rely completely on them -- though as I indicated there are some guests I have declined based heavily (though not entirely) on the photo. BUt that actually is not so common. I think that if people get a GOOD photo of themselves, it really CAN reveal things about their soul. But they have to really pick a GOOD photo of themselves, and getting a truly good, representative one is not easy to do. People generally do not know how to take photos of themselves that will show them well, partly because they dont' know what they are looking for. People dont' necessarily have a sense of how soul and personality can be conveyed effectively in imagery.
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Post by High Priestess on May 9, 2016 1:49:38 GMT
I wonder if the greater focus on race in the US has to do with the US being less homogeneous than other cultures? And at times this can be a threat to people, particularly if they might live in an area that used to be more homogeneous, but is changing, and they fear the loss of a familiar culture. I wonder for instance how this will play out in European countries, especially Germany, which have recently accepted so many immigrants of non-European ethnicities.
As well, there are unique issues regarding the relationships of black Americans to white or non-black Americans, due to elements that are unique to US history and the history of blacks in slavery in the US, civil rights struggles in the US. If black individuals had come into America freely as immigrants and not as slaves, we would not have the very complex and difficult issues we have now. Many people look at almost everything that has to do with black-white relations in the context of slavery. WHat can make progress in racial harmony particularly fraught with difficulty in my view, is that it can feel like many folks (eg particularly those in academia, who get paid to study theories and write papers on these issues) are not willing to look at what can actually be done at the present time, but are focused on the past, and the wrongs there, and in explaining their theories of how colonialism, imperialism and slavery have led to the present time sociopolitical-racial landscape. It can feel to me like some who take this perspective are not willing to engage in dialogue with others who have not yet accepted their whole worldview of how things came to be where they are now, and who is to blame, including owning their "white privilege." I often feel like we are collectively bound up so tightly in theories that it can be difficult to just focus on practical matters. I think a practical focus, looking at what can actually be DONE to help in various situations, is going to be much more productive than going through hours, weeks and years of discussion of how things got to be the way they are now and who is to blame for it.
So the approach I like to take is more like "let's set aside the need to find blame, and let's create room for everyone to tell their story and be heard, and then let's see if we can find practical solutions."
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Post by becks on May 9, 2016 1:52:49 GMT
I know becks that you and I disagree on photos -- I believe I recall you saying in posts on other threads, that you didn't think it was quite right to make any judgements based on photos of guests at all. That is a valid perspective that some hosts will have. I'll admit that one can be misled by photos -- one sees something there that turns out not to be there in the real person. PHotos can make a person look better than they really are, or perhaps worse. Yes, this is not an exact science. But then the whole screening process is difficult, and we have to make a decision about a person based on what amounts to very little information. So we can only do our best, and yes it is subjective. THe whole screening process is probably rather subjective for many.
I use photos to provide me some information --- and I do believe they can provide important information --- but I do not rely completely on them -- though as I indicated there are some guests I have declined based heavily (though not entirely) on the photo. BUt that actually is not so common. I think that if people get a GOOD photo of themselves, it really CAN reveal things about their soul. But they have to really pick a GOOD photo of themselves, and getting a truly good, representative one is not easy to do. People generally do not know how to take photos of themselves that will show them well, partly because they dont' know what they are looking for. People dont' necessarily have a sense of how soul and personality can be conveyed effectively in imagery. Yes, that all very nice but a) You can't see anybody's 'soul' in a photo. Fact. Charles Manson was very photogenic, for example. And b) People pick photos that represent what they like about themselves and that's usually an old photo or one where they were happy (and they're not anymore) or one that caught them in a flattering light. I can count on one hand the times where the photo clearly matched the face that showed up at my door. Ergo, it's meaningless to me. It does show a willingness to comply with transparency, I agree. Other than that, I don't care. Their communication is all that matters to me. I don't mind if they don't speak English, as long as they make an effort to communicate with me, it's good. Don't care what they look like.
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Post by High Priestess on May 9, 2016 2:01:53 GMT
This comment by Andrew came just before: I posted this elsewhere and one host thought he looked like trouble, another female host thought he looked "hunky" and said she would definitely accept him, someone else said they thought he looked arrogant. This is also an illustration of the subtle ways that racism can influence people's judgments even when they don't believe themselves to be biased. The idea that black men are "trouble" or "arrogant" are commonly held stereotypes that people around us often default to no matter how we behave or present ourselves. This is often a matter of life and death; if the person making a split-second decision about whether you are "trouble" is holding a gun, for example, you know what happens next. I'd like to think that seasoned hospitality professionals are better than the average joe at looking past superficial biases and reaching out to the guest's humanity. That's why I find it deeply disturbing that even a highly experienced host would decline this man based on a photo of his face, or demand more information from him than any other guest. But I don't find it surprising, as it is the usual result when I request rooms on Airbnb as well. And it's not the case for my husband, who is white and most definitely trouble. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is also an illustration of the subtle ways that racism can influence people's judgments even when they don't believe themselves to be biased. The idea that black men are "trouble" or "arrogant" are commonly held stereotypes that people around us often default to no matter how we behave or present ourselves. This is often a matter of life and death; if the person making a split-second decision about whether you are "trouble" is holding a gun, for example, you know what happens next. I'd like to think that seasoned hospitality professionals are better than the average joe at looking past superficial biases and reaching out to the guest's humanity. That's why I find it deeply disturbing that even a highly experienced host would decline this man based on a photo of his face, or demand more information from him than any other guest. But I don't find it surprising, as it is the usual result when I request rooms on Airbnb as well. And it's not the case for my husband, who is white and most definitely trouble. It may be a stereotype that black men are "trouble" ( I have never heard it as a stereotype that black men are "arrogant") --- but does the fact that a stereotype exists, mean that no one can actually be the thing the stereotype suggests? Of course not. It would be ludicrous to argue that if there is a stereotype that people of a certain type are arrogant, this must mean that NONE of them are truly arrogant. Stereotypes arise because they are based on something true.
Actually the stereotype of looking arrogant I think applies more to white males than others. I have had several black male guests at my home (I've accepted all the black guests who requested to stay except one woman, who presented in such a confused way, with conflicting information,that I wasn't sure she was telling the truth) and I didnt' appraise any of their photos as someone who looked arrogant. BUt this man does "look" that way to me. (eg that is an intuitive hit I get -- a subjective resonse which could be wildly wrong) I can see that it might be disturbing to someone who was used to experiencing negative effects of a stereotype, to hear something that sounds like a stereotype...but in this case that is my honest reaction, made from whatever elements it is made up of. I have no doubt that it is difficult to be perceived in a negative light or as a dangerous individual -- and how upsetting this could be and stressful, to happen on a regular basis.
I wouldn't demand more info from this guest than any other guest -- what I meant was that if Greg only wrote me a short message which didn't contain much information , eg "Hi, Wanna stay there, thanks"(which is what some guests write!) I would ask more. I do actually demand a lot of info from some guests -- not just a black male, (actually I don't think I asked many questions of the black males who stayed with me , but some young white women concerned me because I worried they would socialize too much in my house) but anytime I get an intuitive hit that I need more info. Andrew, do you feel you have been declined solely on the basis of race? I will not doubt that this can happen. I get angry about specific people being accused of racism when there is no clear evidence of that but I will certainly agree that I am sure it does at times occur that black individuals are declined based just on race. Just like I am sure that at other times they are not declined based on race. If someone is declined 100% of the time we have to ask what they are doing wrong in their presentation.
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Post by becks on May 9, 2016 2:03:53 GMT
Carolyn -- it just goes to show hosts have different responses. I posted this elsewhere and one host thought he looked like trouble, another female host thought he looked "hunky" and said she would definitely accept him, someone else said they thought he looked arrogant. Some female hosts decline all single male guests! I thought, well-- what if he looks "hunky" but is requesting to stay with a straight male guest -- that may present yet another set of problems --- do men get threatened by others who they perceive as wanting to out-dude them?
My own response to Greg is that I would decline him for two reasons (1) in his photo he looks confrontational/arrogant, (2) I would have to ask him questions about his purpose of stay, and a few others, but he would probably not be the personality type I generally seek for a quiet, retreat-like setting and into which I obtain many students/researchers/introverts, and some interested in workshops, or meditation/spirituality. oh ffs Deborah, he looks arrogant? WTH? Deal with your prejudice, please, and don't post it as Airbnb Host mantra. Sure, he might not fit into your specialised space but you're really going to judge him on his photo?? Who the hell do you think you are to judge this guy as looking 'arrogant'? He is cute and friendly. Your opinion on him is just that - your own opinion.
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Post by High Priestess on May 9, 2016 2:05:10 GMT
Yes, that all very nice but a) You can't see anybody's 'soul' in a photo. Fact. Charles Manson was very photogenic, for example. And b) People pick photos that represent what they like about themselves and that's usually an old photo or one where they were happy (and they're not anymore) or one that caught them in a flattering light. I can count on one hand the times where the photo clearly matched the face that showed up at my door. Ergo, it's meaningless to me. It does show a willingness to comply with transparency, I agree. Other than that, I don't care. Their communication is all that matters to me. I don't mind if they don't speak English, as long as they make an effort to communicate with me, it's good. Don't care what they look like. becks -- - but recall, you also said that you liked that one forum style that was completely absent of imagery, had no images at all, only words -- I thought it was ghastly, you said it was perfect and that you didn't like the style of this forum that you thought had too much distracting imagery. I think you are not an image-based person, while I am. I do see soul in photos. Not every photo --- but I can see it. IF we can see soul in people's faces when we meet them, why not in someone's photo?
By the way I dont' think Greg looks "Dangerous" or like "trouble" -- in fact in his eyes, he looks sincere and earnest ---- but he is a little too much in my face for my comfort. Maybe if he used a photo that had him standing further from the camera I might feel quite differently....
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Post by High Priestess on May 9, 2016 2:10:51 GMT
Carolyn -- it just goes to show hosts have different responses. I posted this elsewhere and one host thought he looked like trouble, another female host thought he looked "hunky" and said she would definitely accept him, someone else said they thought he looked arrogant. Some female hosts decline all single male guests! I thought, well-- what if he looks "hunky" but is requesting to stay with a straight male guest -- that may present yet another set of problems --- do men get threatened by others who they perceive as wanting to out-dude them?
My own response to Greg is that I would decline him for two reasons (1) in his photo he looks confrontational/arrogant, (2) I would have to ask him questions about his purpose of stay, and a few others, but he would probably not be the personality type I generally seek for a quiet, retreat-like setting and into which I obtain many students/researchers/introverts, and some interested in workshops, or meditation/spirituality. oh ffs Deborah, he looks arrogant? WTH? Deal with your prejudice, please, and don't post it as Airbnb Host mantra. Sure, he might not fit into your specialised space but you're really going to judge him on his photo?? Who the hell do you think you are to judge this guy as looking 'arrogant'? He is cute and friendly. Your opinion on him is just that - your own opinion. Yes I think he looks arrogant -- a bit too much in my face -- not a prejudice (though I like everyone no doubt carry some "prejudices" and we all have to struggle with that!) , that is my gut response. And a gut response or intuitive hit is not something I or anyone else has to apologize for. It's just being honest. No, I'm not "judging" him altogether on his photo, I'm not saying I know everything about him. Absolutely not. BE clear -- I am not saying he "is" arrogant as though I were capable of announcing that from the heavens. For gosh sakes --- I'm saying that is the hit I get. Really folks need to understand when we decide whether or not to accept a guest, and get a "hit" on a photo, that is not a "judgement" of that person, it's just a reaction, but one that we decide (and the decision might be quite spontaneous and arbitrary) to use as information. Any host not only has the right to use info that they obtain in a photo, but in my view, it would be wise to do so. To accuse someone of using info they obtain in a photo of having done something "deeply disturbing" is quite offensive. It's essentially to say to someone that for them to use their own intuitive capacity to make a decision, is disturbing. Such a comment is arrogant and more than a little controlling as it essentially says, "You can't be trusted to make your own decisions based on your intuition, wisdom and common sense."
I would make a decision based on whether to accept him, based in part on his photo. ANd I might have it all wrong, as I say, that is part of the deal -- this is not a science. IT is definitely subjective and intuitive, not scientific. I have declined others I thought looked arrogant -- though this is not common, it sometimes happens. It's my home, and I will make my decisions as I please, whether by reason, intution, or Tarot Card Readings.
ANd I might find out Greg was a perfectly decent likeable person. But since I have to hit either the accept or decline key, I can't wait til I meet him and read the whole novel of his life, so I have to use an imperfect system to decide.
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Post by becks on May 9, 2016 2:16:37 GMT
Ok Deborah, how about this lovely lady? omg, it's not exactly easy to insert an image on here is it..... give me a minute
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Post by becks on May 9, 2016 2:22:26 GMT
Ok I can't work out how to insert a bloody image. I have to insert the whole address?? What?? AAAAHHH! It's like Noah's forum before the flood.
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