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Post by High Priestess on May 6, 2016 15:15:54 GMT
NOte: significant portions of this thread were removed by Andrew, since after he left the forum, he deleted many of his posts on the forum. In this thread, see the quotes within adjacent posts which contain the missing material. See the last post on this thread to read the thread in its entirety. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- See the article: www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/06/airbnb-racism-civil-rights-laws-sharing-economyA 2015 study by researchers at Harvard Business School found evidence of “widespread discrimination against African-American guests” by Airbnb hosts, and many Twitter users have shared their experiences of rejection on the short-term rental platform using the hashtag #AirbnbWhileBlack. For many, Airbnb serves as a functional equivalent to a hotel, but the startup – and other similar internet marketplaces – exist in a grey area, potentially beyond the reach of the hard-won reforms of the civil rights movement. “What Airbnb and many other sharing economy businesses are doing is ... moving hundreds of thousands of transactions out of the realm where they are unquestionably governed by public accommodations laws and into a realm where the legality is at best unclear,” says Nancy Leong, a law professor at the University of Denver who examines how civil rights legislation applies to companies like Airbnb in the Georgetown Law Journal. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SOme thoughts on this: I have concerns about this article -- which has statements in it that make me quite angry. This article pastes together questionable research conclusions with outrageous suggestions. The Harvard Study about the acceptance rate of those with "black sounding names" -- is not a study about blacks, it is a study about those with "black sounding names" -- and there is a difference! People have some associations to "black sounding names" that they do not necessarily have to blacks as a group -- for instance, some would perceive/have a prejudice that use of a black-sounding name indcates lower socioeconomic class, and some might perceive/have a prejudice it suggests to that someone was more militant or political about their black identity. Given the failure to reduce the variables under study, it is hard to believe someone would buy that it was done by a major university and not Reader's Digest)
You get a call for changing the Civil Rights Laws of the United States to force people to accept people in their own private homes who they don't want in their homes, you get arguments for turning hosts into Airbnb employees who no longer have a say who they can accept or reject, and whose homes for all intents and purposes become the property of Airbnb, arguments for the "unfairness" of requiring guests to use their real names and real photos. In other words you get a heck of a lot of nonsense. I"m afraid that this kind of thinking, and this degree of "political correctness", has led to things like the ascendancy of Trump.
IN particular, I am aghast at the idea that anyone would argue that it is wrong to want to see/know who you are renting to, before you rent. THose in this article express that it is problematic to see a photo of the person who wants to stay at your house. What? We can't be trusted to make decisions on who we want in our own homes?!?! This is a view that expresses such contempt for homeowners. To argue that people should NOT be able to know to whom they rent, is both a gesture of bad faith in the homeowners themselves, as well as an incredibly arrogant view that renters should be able to occupy other's homes forcibly or by stealth.
If this is the direction the "progressives" in the nation are going, why are we surprised to see people voting for a megalomanic showman??
Just today I had an inquiry from a prospective guest. She did not have a photo of herself on her profile. WHen I asked her to add one on, it turned out she was a black woman, and a strikingly likeable one at that -- so cheery and radiant looking, and a professional woman, the purpose of whose visit sounded absolutely legitimate -- all in all, a perfect match for my house. It took me no time at all to hit the "accept" button. I can't imagine that most others with whom she inquires wouldn't do likewise.
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Post by maggie on May 6, 2016 16:29:27 GMT
Show me who you are so i don't need ' 3 references, proof of stable employment, 1st last & security and interview'! Sorry, I am not running a hotel here!
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Post by carolyn on May 7, 2016 0:31:21 GMT
Deborah and Andrew, you both make good points. I think that, if Airbnb ever has to legislate this issue, I'd support the removal of hosts who blatantly discriminate. And, I appreciate anti-discrimination legislation in the US. Bigotry and ignorance is so pervasive here that we NEED regulation to insure opportunity and fair treatment for all. As for "political correctness:" It is unfortunate that the term has been hijacked by extremists. We need a new phrase. How about "Decency?"
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Post by High Priestess on May 7, 2016 3:37:05 GMT
This is ANdrew's missing comment which originally came after Carolyn's comment: Deborah, the fact that you aren't personally practicing racial discrimination does not mean that it isn't a very real thing that minorities live with, that reaches deeply into every facet of our everyday lives and shapes our opportunities, and that wouldn't be drastically worse in the absence of legal protections against discrimination. One thing that is utterly sick about the discourse on the matter in the US is that virtually any discussion about the real-world impact of inequality (be it gender, race, sexuality, religion, or immigration status) is instantly hijacked by the right wing by being derided as "political correctness." Many efforts to address inequality are deeply flawed and may do more harm than good. But can we not assess them on their merits without foaming at the mouth about the fact that, to people who might not have the same set of privileges others do, they are still deeply consequential? Is it really a reasonable reaction to elect authoritarian, race-baiting demagogues into high office? The article does raise some interesting points that, whether we as in-home hosts like it or not, are going to become increasingly relevant as Airbnb and similar companies take a larger share of the market. I do agree that hosts should not be forced to accept any guest into their homes against their will, for any reason - and by no means would I choose to be one if this were not the case. But let's get a bit slippery-slope for a moment. Imagine a hypothetical place in which Airbnb has come to dominate the accommodation market so thoroughly that all available rooms (be they in homes or hotels, etc.) are listed there. And on top of that, the hosts with vacancies in this place overwhelmingly share the same bias against people like yourself. (Whatever demographic detail you want to zoom in on there is fine, but I can't help but mention that the vast majority of the world's countries are deeply hostile to lesbians). Now, of course this place is not going to be your first choice of a holiday destination, but perhaps a dear friend is getting married there (like the gay couple in Texas that you posted about) and you need a place to stay for their wedding. But as you request accommodations with your public profile, you keep getting declined over and over - to the point that it seems nowhere will take you. Perhaps you finally do get a booking, and when you arrive the host promptly turns you away because they don't take kindly to Deborahs around here. Ultimately, you're left with no options, for reasons entirely beyond your control. This is what life has been like for black people in America for most of our history, only the reality is a lot worse. It's what life is like for LGBT people in most of the world to this day. It's a scenario that we have good reason to take measures to prevent. The scenario may sound outlandish, and of course it would be very much so in a diverse and cosmopolitan place like the Bay Area. But most places are not anything like Berkeley. The progressivism that's easy to deride when expressed in extremes is still responsible for your community being a place where people like you and me can feel safe and able to live our lives in peace. It's 2016 and we're still fighting for trans people to be able to use a public bathroom, so it would be ludicrous to say that the battles against discrimination have been settled by the free market. What this means for the sharing economy is a subject that I would like to see settled without lumping private homes in with "public accommodations." Your house is not the same thing as a Walgreen's or a post office, and as a B&B it exists at an intersection between public and private that has yet to be defined in any nationwide legislation. But the long-term goal of achieving that distinction is not well-served by accusations of "political correctness" made at those who point out the ramifications of ignoring the "public" aspect of that intersection too broadly. It's in our best interests to not be associated with bigotry or any loopholes allowing for it. I stand by my advice to hosts - even in countries without anti-discrimination laws - to never post discriminatory statements in their listings, nor to reveal discriminatory intentions when declining guests. I would also fully support Airbnb in making the good-business-sense choice of removing hosts who did otherwise. If regulatory policy were to take a similar approach - allowing private discretion but forbidding explicit bias - I suppose it would be a fair compromise. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew I hope that you didn't read into my comments that I was advocating hosts discriminate against any group of people! I definitely do not advocate that, and like you, I would not encourage any host to make any explicitly discriminatory statements in their ad. I take the same approach as you on this and suggest hosts never make any statements revealing any discrimination when declining guests. I say this as much from a belief that it is the right thing to do, as well as to protect them from legal consequences, as well as to protect guests from feeling hurt.
One of the things I find most ironic, is that in this article referred to here, as well as in other articles on the same topic of black individuals feeling discriminated against, (and there are many articles on this now) , I have not read of one single instance of any host actually making a discriminatory statement regarding race, or even any evidence which showed intent to discriminate on the basis of race. All of this has been hypothetical -- perhaps presumed or imagined -- and for that reason, the amount of hullaballoo over this is concerning to me. (Doubtless there is some discrimination on race by some hosts, as racism and other "isms" exist everywhere, but I have not seen any clear evidence of this being presented...) By contrast, there have been several cases in the news about people discriminating against gays -- one of an Airbnb host in Texas who evicted a gay guest, another of an owner of a B&B in Hawaii who refused to accept a lesbian couple, the case on the New HOst Forum itself of the host who actually posted there asking how to filter out gay people so she needn't have us as guests! ANd then the infamous wedding cake court case -- folks who are reluctant to bake a cake for gays -- as well as the refusal of one County Clerk to marry gay individuals. So if we go on cases of overt discrimination, we see a lot more directed at gays.
As well -- there is doubtless some very real "bigotry" in the world and distrust. Yet from my training in psychology and psychotherapy I know that you cannot heal something by rejecting it and approaching with a scolding attitude. THis is the impasse we are in with racism today. I would love to see racism be healed, but instead I see it being scolded and those accused of it, called names and shoved off into corners -- as if we would like to see them fall off the edge of the earth. I don't think this approach is one consistent with real healing.
Whatever society tries to push away, into the shadow, to scold and banish into corners, will not be contained there.
As Carl Jung said, "Whatever is relegated to the unconscious, comes to us as fate."
For instance, I always find it ironic and dorky to see (scolding) signs and protests such as "stop the hate," "hate is bad", "dont' hate" -- in essence these people are hating hate. Everyone "hates" something or someone at some time, and the massive amount of denial of hate, simply creates a huge counterforce, because now we have to "hate" the dorks who sanctimoniously indicate that they hate hate.
A sure way to stop hate: make signs saying "stop hate."
If I get declined because I'm a lesbian -- and I agree it is quite possible that many people out there dont' like Deborahs! --- one of the very last things I would want to do is try to force my way into the home of someone who didnt' want me there. I am glad you also would not want to see that happen Andrew!! In fact, one of the reasons I believe so strongly in supporting hosts' right to decline whoever they dont' want, and for whatever reason, is because the world is not always a safe place for women, and I believe that women have a right to feel safe in their own home -- when it may be hard to find that feeling of safety just out the front door.
As far as getting declined from all sorts of AIrbnb's if I tried to go to Texas -- I dont' really know what I would do -- but one thing I would definitely not do is start a TWitter Column called #AirbnbWhileLesbian. If I was declined by someone, how could I know why? Was it because I'm female? Because I'm a lesbian? Because I'm an astrologer? Because I'm not a Christian? Because I'm Pagan? Because I practice Divination? Is the person worried I might be a Devil Worshipper? Do they think I might be a Krazy Kalifornian? I am a multifaceted person and I cannot assume to know what facet a person might be reacting to, unless they tell me, or I get an intuition about that -- (and intuitions are much more likely to be obtained in person, as opposed to through email message) Or then again, perhaps I could do a Tarot reading to try to find out why I was declined. I might believe the answer I got that way, but I wouldn't call CBS news and insist on it as God's own truth.
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Post by High Priestess on May 7, 2016 15:28:58 GMT
This comment by Andrew came after my comment above and before my comment below, I"m re-inserting it here: The reason you can visibly *see* more discrimination directed at gays than at black people is that racial discrimination is illegal in all 50 states, whereas anti-gay discrimination is only illegal in 22 of them. Sexual orientation is not considered a protected class under the remaining states' non-discrimination laws, and that enables people who choose not to provide goods and services to gays to be more overt about their reasons for doing so. But refusal of services is just one of hundreds of ways that discrimination can occur, and it ranks fairly low in impact compared to stuff like mass incarceration. If you believe it's happening more to gays than to blacks, that's probably because you are gay and not black, and you have more intimate experience of one than the other. There are all kinds of ways to make bad arguments in support of a good cause. "Stop Hate" is, of course, as empty and witless of a slogan as "Make America Great Again." But this is not a reason to denigrate those who are trying to deal with the issues that would cause someone to carry such a sign. I'd rather respond to a bad argument with a better one - not an exasperated gripe about the fact that we have to have that conversation in the first place. And that's ultimately what those decrying "political correctness" are doing. That argument is every bit as shrill and sanctimonious as what it claims to be opposing. I don't think we disagree about this inasmuch as it effects our liberties as Airbnb hosts. Neither of us would wish to lose the right to refuse a stranger entry into our homes. But this is a Straw Man, because no one is actually trying to take that right away. The debate referenced in the Guardian article is, crucially, about the legal question of whether Airbnb itself is a public accommodation - not about whether an individual host is. And if using the platform has caused people to experience the kind of discrimination that would be unlawful in other contexts, that is a valid consideration to make. As I've posted on before, I definitely know the frustration of being declined by a dozen hosts in a small city for no good reason and ultimately settling for a hotel that I couldn't really afford. It's far from the worst type of oppression one could encounter, but it's the kind of issue that will be a much bigger deal if Airbnb is an industry leader than if it remains an underdog. There's a lot of content to unpack in that conversation without dragging in Trump and Jung and protest signs and other things that don't have the slightest thing to do with it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew, you're right about the issues why gay discrimination could be more "visible." , particularly in regards to what you say about the laws in the various US states. Yet as regards these articles on Airbnb rentals discrimination on the basis of race, I strongly feel that it is incumbent upon those alleging racism, to do so responsibly, with demonstrable proof. I have not seen that happening in several of these articles, which seems irresponsible.
At the same time, regarding my views or those of anyone else on this topic -- whether we are part of the group being discussed or not (whether we are black or not ) is not something I view as relevant in terms of our right to and our ability to apply critical thinking to the subject. To suggest that someone like myself who has been thinking about these topics for 20-30 years, may not be well informed because we dont' happen to be of the right race, is not a passable argument. That is a view that issues out of Identity Politics and I don't accept that philosophy.
The Identity Politics philosophy can be dismissive of the right of those outside a group to comment upon issues bearing upon that group. In fact I think actually the reverse may at times be true -- that those who are members of a particular group, may at times be less capable of objectivity on issues where they have a significant personal investment in their own pet theory. If people are very motivated to see racism here there and everywhere, are they likely to be as objective as someone who does not have a similar investment in proving their own theory? This was some of the point I was trying to make about presumptions about other's motives.
Trump and Jung -- if you don't see how something I mention is relevant, it might be better to ask me to explain rather than dismiss it as irrelevant. Carl JUng -- his thoughts on the unconscious are relevant to this topic, but you'd have to bear with me through at least 10 -15 pages to explain it decently-- so wait for my book on the subject!! Re Trump -- it's probably too confusing and getting too far off the subject to start talking about Trump in relation to this, I admit -- again I should write a long essay or book on it, rather than try to get into that here -- this issue is certainly not central to the topic at hand, but I think it provides information on the importance of how we talk about these issues.
For instance --- comments like this from the article above:
And it's this kind of thing -- making assertions about widespread racism at work (and racism of a level that takes us back to the 1950's?!!?really?) , with little evidence of that -- that makes people angry -- I find myself angry at Leong's expression of distrust for average Airbnb hosts -- apparently we can't be trusted to see the guest's photo and know their name, because we are likely to be racists! That makes me livid. . I think the rise of Trump is a phenomenon feeding on a groundswell of people feeling both angry and helpless. Because I'd rather that there not be such a large number of people supporting someone like Trump, and because I'd like racism in society to be healed rather than scolded, I think that the way we approach these issues does matter. Taking action to heal brings people together. Scolding and punitive measures drive wedges that split off large number of folks, and they dont' just fall off the face of the earth, (as some might wish they would) but emerge in a force somewhere else.
www.nytimes.com/2016/05/05/upshot/what-i-got-wrong-about-donald-trump.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
Eg One New York City commenter on that article wrote:
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Post by High Priestess on May 7, 2016 15:56:19 GMT
Here's another article about alleged racism/discrimination on Airbnb -- there are a lot of these articles appearing now -- which goes to support the point I was making, that this issue, which may actually turn out to be often an issue of guests learning how to use suitable profile photos , is getting a disproportionate amount of media attention. This is concerning when we live in a setting where any allegations of racism can provoke serious consequences. Airbnb doesn't often speak out to address a group of guests' or host's concerns, but they have been pressured to speak out on this issue, which I think emphasizes how important it is that we speak responsibly on these issues, since accusations can have such high-level consequences.
uproxx.com/life/airbnbwhileblack-racism-sharing-economy/
In this case, it still is not clear to me that one can presume, as the author did, that "racism happened." The Richmond Virgina man asked to stay as a guest at a man's home, using his own photo, and was declined. He submitted a couple other requests using fake profiles, this time including photos of white men in the requests. (Which by the way is a violation of Airbnb terms and conditions to do...one can't create more than one account...and I would guess that setting up a profile and using someone else's photo on the account is also prohibited) THose were accepted by that same host.
Did the host reject the guest initially solely because he was black? Or did he reject him because something in the man's face seemed unfriendly, or threatening, the guest wasn't smiling, or was covering up part of his face, or because the man looked too young, or bore a resemblance to a neighbor or work colleague he didn't like, or due to some other "gut" response, or any other of a myriad of reasons? Was the photo unprofessional? Perhaps the host rightly intuited that this guest was someone who was looking to set up a trap for someone to fall into, a racism "Gotcha" Game. Or did the photos of the white men just appear eminently likeable to the host for some reason, perhaps resembling his brother, father, friend? THe problem is, we can't know. Because we cannot know, I think it is irresponsible to say, "Racism happened." And because a person was accused of something which in our culture can result in much social opprobrium being directed at them (it is a very serious and heavy accusation to call someone a "racist" in our society -- yet this is often done so very casually, almost offhandedly), I would say that to irresponsibly impute racism to someone's motivations, is also unethical.
The host community has actually often helped hosts with getting an appropriate photo on their profile. A surpising number of hosts use photos that are unprofessional...or if not unprofessional, may just not come across well to someone of another generation or way of life. If hosts often use poor judgement in their profile photo, it stands to reason guests are just as likely to make the same mistake. ANd younger guests in particular I think may make mistakes this way. We live in times when young people sometimes show up at work with their pants hanging down to their knees. So it stands to reason that some people may not know how to select appropriate profile photos.
Even if there was a way to prove that this particular hosts' motivations were discriminatory on the basis of race...that would only prove that there is one host who had a discriminatory motivation in one instance. It doesn't indicate that would happen in every instance with the same host and it doesn't imply anything about any other host. ANother question to ask would be -- did this guest intentionally send a request to someone he thought was more likely to decline him, in order to get a story out of it? We know nothing about why this guest selected this host. WE deserve to know more, particularly if someone is being accused of racism, and even more so, if the whole Airbnb enterprise is being accused of supporting racism. There are so many problems with trying to build a case alleging widespread racism based on one or a few instances. The more accusations emerge from such a weak argument, the more unethical, in my view, are the emergent accusations.
I also consider it a form of harassment to do something like this to a host....to issue 3 requests, 2 fake ones in disguise. This is a "bad faith" attempt to gain weak evidence for a claim that someone clearly has an investment in being able to "prove".
gothamist.com/2016/05/06/public_advocate_accuses_airbnb_of_w.php
money.cnn.com/2016/05/06/news/airbnb-black-discrimination-airbnbwhileblack/
philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2016/05/06/airbnbwhileblack-black-users-snubbed-over-race-on-airbnb/
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Post by becks on May 7, 2016 19:13:33 GMT
I haven't examined the methodology used in the research article but I do think it would be incredibly naive to believe that there are no racist Airbnb hosts! Of course there are. It's nothing to do with "political correctness" (god I loathe that phrase). They will not advertise the fact, of course, because they are well-schooled in the legal ramifications and the moral repugnance that many others will feel. (Having said that, I did come across a listing in Moscow that stated "White Europeans only". I was going to message him and ask if he could make an exception for my black partner who was born and bred in England). However, when it comes to discriminating against certain nationalities - there are many examples on the Airbnb Groups where hosts have openly stated that they will no longer host anyone from, say, Asia, because they had one bad experience and therefore assume the other 4 billion people will be the same. I've even seen hosts recommending to others that they decline guests from Korea and China. Today there is another example on the Community Centre, this time openly discriminating against Muslims: community.airbnb.com/t5/General-Hosting/dont-like-the-look-of-a-guest-who-has-booked-can-i-decline-or/m-p/83607#M22802And another nice example here where a host rants on a reply to a review calling the guest a 'stinky Indian': community.airbnb.com/t5/General-Hosting/Warning-bad-guest/m-p/68149#M18591although I see that his reply has been taken down from his profile. But I read it and it was pretty shocking.
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Post by High Priestess on May 7, 2016 19:36:55 GMT
I haven't examined the methodology used in the research article but I do think it would be incredibly naive to believe that there are no racist Airbnb hosts! Of course there are. It's nothing to do with "political correctness" (god I loathe that phrase). They will not advertise the fact, of course, because they are well-schooled in the legal ramifications and the moral repugnance that many others will feel. (Having said that, I did come across a listing in Moscow that stated "White Europeans only". I was going to message him and ask if he could make an exception for my black partner who was born and bred in England). However, when it comes to discriminating against certain nationalities - there are many examples on the Airbnb Groups where hosts have openly stated that they will no longer host anyone from, say, Asia, because they had one bad experience and therefore assume the other 4 billion people will be the same. I've even seen hosts recommending to others that they decline guests from Korea and China. Today there is another example on the Community Centre, this time openly discriminating against Muslims: community.airbnb.com/t5/General-Hosting/dont-like-the-look-of-a-guest-who-has-booked-can-i-decline-or/m-p/83607#M22802And another nice example here where a host rants on a reply to a review calling the guest a 'stinky Indian': community.airbnb.com/t5/General-Hosting/Warning-bad-guest/m-p/68149#M18591although I see that his reply has been taken down from his profile. But I read it and it was pretty shocking. Definitely, becks I am sure there are hosts who are "racist" --- given the vast number of people who are now Airbnb hosts, that would stand to reason!!! I just think it's a big leap to assert that anyone in particular is "racist" because they declined someone, or that "racism" was involved when a black person got declined, or that Airbnb is "racist" due to the results of a study that involves shoddy research and lazy intellectualism. But definitely I do not disagree with you or Andrew or anyone who asserts that there is racism out there in the world, and in the hosting world too. That can't be denied.
Thanks too for including the links to those threads on the Community Center.
I think one of the difficulties with looking at racism in a context like this, is that you have hosts who make a variety of separate decisions about guests, each decision being potentially a complex mix of mental and emotional factors, gut responses, subjective assessments of the guest's presentation in their photo, their message, their self-description, their stated purpose, as well as the whole history of the hosts' past experience with guests, as well as their experience with any individuals that this present guest may bear similarity to in their own mind. So the whole decision making process can be quite complex.
As well, there are some cultural differences, which at times correlate to ethnicity, and to what extent a host is concerned is able to unpack the concerns about culture and its impact on guest expectations, vs concerns about race/ethnicity which may be misplaced, is hard to know. For instance -- in response to many hosts posting about problems with guests from CHina or India, other hosts have chimed in that people from those nations may come from upper classes and be used to having servants who take care of cleaning chores, and expect the same of their host. So to what extent can the culture be disentangled from the race -- ideally hosts take every situation on its own merits when deciding whether to accept or decline. But the reality is, hosts have had their places trashed and not always had Airbnb reimbursement, so sometimes an effort to be cautious and protect one's home might result in a strategy that from the outside could appear "racist." People tend to make decisions based on past negative experience. And it would be foolish for someone to knowingly accept guests who their past expereince suggests might not treat their place well, simply because someone has made them feel guilty that not to do so is "racist."
Also, I think our culture is too much in the habit of dismissing people completely as "racists" when in fact they may have simply made one or more unfair/discriminatory decisions based on race in one instance, whereas this may not be their general pattern. People are complex and can at times be unfair or prejudicial towards a certain group, while not necessarily being inveterate or hardened "racists". This sort of complexity of human nature is not something that one can sense in the reigning PC politics on racial issues, which are very unfortunately often too simplistic.
Add to that, that any given host might have a different way of making their decisions about guests, from one day to the next. So for instance even if someone is concerned about "Indian" guests, like the host who posted that thread in the CC -- perhaps eventually she ends up with an Indian guest who is quite the opposite of her expectations, and she learns to be more trusting, or how to more expertly screen guests. People can change.
I think part of the value of the host community is in helping people be more refined and sophisticated in their decision making process, so that they don't feel the need to exclude whole categories of people, or an entire race/ethnicity. IN order to be able to receive such help and education, people need to be able to honestly tell their stories and express their concerns without being shamed off the platform.
I would LOVE it if the issue of race/ethnicity or other minority status of guests (eg LGBT guests) would become something that the Airbnb host community could reveal it was capable of discussing, with more nuance, subtlety, tolerance, sophistication and openness to a variety of points of view, than is often found in general public discourse on these issues. Wouldn't it be great if hosts actually could model what a more open discussion could look like? I think that could greatly benefit everyone involved, and allow all sides to be heard. I think more than anything else, what human beings want is to be able to share their experiences and be heard. I say this as someone who has struggled to contribute to the important public dialogue(s) on racial issues, and often have experienced being utterly dismissed, sometimes called "racist", simply because I refused to tow the progressive party line. (The exceptional intolerance and hostility to free exchange of thought of many progressives actually strikes me as bearing more resemblance to what has traditionally been referred to as conservatism....)
In fact I think that laws in most places do not prohibit hosts discriminating on any basis, could be viewed in a positive light, in that this could potentially allow hosts to be more honest and open about their decision making process, than they would otherwise.
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Post by becks on May 7, 2016 20:28:08 GMT
I agree Deborah that open discussion is always good! And I'll admit that I find it very hard to be generous to people who, in my opinion, display breathtakingly arrogant assumptions about an entire culture/nation based on nothing but hearsay. I'm not including you in this group, by the way, but I have to ask what do you mean by "our culture"? Do you mean white, educated, western...? But that assumes such a lot! It's like that whole debate you mention about Chinese tourists being rich and used to servants - it's just bollocks, really. Yes, there is plenty of evidence that the Chinese nouveau riche now travelling the world often behave appallingly. The Chinese government has got involved, its been so bad. But these are not people who use Airbnb. They are on package tours, for the most part. It's not so much about culture but about background, class, expectations, I think. Poorly educated people who have never travelled outside their own region (let alone country) before are often going to be problematic guests because the excitement of travel can quickly become resentment and frustration that things aren't like back home. I've had my share of them and none of them have been from Asia..... maybe you can guess where they were from.... I don't even like saying 'poorly educated', to be honest! I've met plenty of well-educated people who are complete and utter feckwits, likewise people with no education who are very wise.
A student traveller, keen to explore the world on a budget, is going to be a vastly different guest from a couple with more money than they can spend in a lifetime and who are constantly looking for new excitements. Doesn't matter their ethnicity or what country they're from.
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Post by becks on May 7, 2016 22:47:52 GMT
Meant to also say that hosts who have never travelled and have a very insular view of the world are more likely to have problems dealing with guests from other countries. It works both ways. I have a prime example right now. One guest is super cool and keen to embrace her trip, asking all kinds of questions about Scottish politics and history, it's all very interesting! The other one... not so much. She's here visiting her son and when I pointed her in the direction of the local large supermarkets as she asked, she immediately said 'oh no, my son said that was a dodgy area, I won't go there'. You what?? I felt insulted, frankly. I do my shopping there regularly. Yes, it's a neighbourhood with a lot of immigrants and is not very genteel. But it's perfectly safe and friendly. I wanted to say nobody will give a flying shit about you there lady, unless you openly display your stupid snootiness. Then they'll let you have it and you'll deserve it. Actually, that's not true! No matter how rude and ignorant she is, I'm sure that everyone would still be polite and friendly. They'd just roll their eyes after she left!
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Post by High Priestess on May 7, 2016 23:50:01 GMT
I agree Deborah that open discussion is always good! And I'll admit that I find it very hard to be generous to people who, in my opinion, display breathtakingly arrogant assumptions about an entire culture/nation based on nothing but hearsay. I'm not including you in this group, by the way, but I have to ask what do you mean by "our culture"? Do you mean white, educated, western...? But that assumes such a lot! It's like that whole debate you mention about Chinese tourists being rich and used to servants - it's just bollocks, really. Yes, there is plenty of evidence that the Chinese nouveau riche now travelling the world often behave appallingly. The Chinese government has got involved, its been so bad. But these are not people who use Airbnb. They are on package tours, for the most part. It's not so much about culture but about background, class, expectations, I think. Poorly educated people who have never travelled outside their own region (let alone country) before are often going to be problematic guests because the excitement of travel can quickly become resentment and frustration that things aren't like back home. I've had my share of them and none of them have been from Asia..... maybe you can guess where they were from.... I don't even like saying 'poorly educated', to be honest! I've met plenty of well-educated people who are complete and utter feckwits, likewise people with no education who are very wise. A student traveller, keen to explore the world on a budget, is going to be a vastly different guest from a couple with more money than they can spend in a lifetime and who are constantly looking for new excitements. Doesn't matter their ethnicity or what country they're from. Meant to also say that hosts who have never travelled and have a very insular view of the world are more likely to have problems dealing with guests from other countries. It works both ways. I have a prime example right now. One guest is super cool and keen to embrace her trip, asking all kinds of questions about Scottish politics and history, it's all very interesting! The other one... not so much. She's here visiting her son and when I pointed her in the direction of the local large supermarkets as she asked, she immediately said 'oh no, my son said that was a dodgy area, I won't go there'. You what?? I felt insulted, frankly. I do my shopping there regularly. Yes, it's a neighbourhood with a lot of immigrants and is not very genteel. But it's perfectly safe and friendly. I wanted to say nobody will give a flying shit about you there lady, unless you openly display your stupid snootiness. Then they'll let you have it and you'll deserve it. Actually, that's not true! No matter how rude and ignorant she is, I'm sure that everyone would still be polite and friendly. They'd just roll their eyes after she left! Becks, you mean where I said this?
Also, I think our culture is too much in the habit of dismissing people completely as "racists" when in fact they may have simply made one or more unfair/discriminatory decisions based on race in one instance, whereas this may not be their general pattern.
Yes, I meant something like educated, Western, liberal US culture, perhaps First World Culture -- the "culture" one sees represented in articles in the mainstream media, predominant at major universities, an urban and educated culture, the culture issuing out of civil rights work, and out of the multicultural-diversity work and theories in academia, including Identity POlitics theory, the culture in government leadership, and the "values" of the more Democratic and liberal of my nation at least. As well as the culture that I find myself immersed in.
I dont' think that as hosts it is easy to escape the difficulty we are faced with, that we have to make decisions about who to accept, based on really very little information. ANd add to that, humans tend to be creatures of habit and who look for patterns. "I had a bad experience the last 3 times I _______ so I won't _____ any more." Fill in the blanks. It isn't skillful to make arrogant assumptions, but in fact that is what I am arguing that those who accused hosts and/or Airbnb of racism were doing in these various news stories, and the Harvard study. Making arrogant assumptions.
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Post by Olivier François on May 8, 2016 12:35:25 GMT
Even if this is an US airbnb issue the same happens all over the world. Another 'topic' is hosts discrimination. As a gay host some guests do things they would never do to other host. At least once I personally heard guests whispering "No need to tidy up or to clean, we are not going to be bored for 2 gays" and let the house in a total mess.
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Post by High Priestess on May 8, 2016 13:03:12 GMT
Olivier, did your guests leave the place a mess because they didnt' want to clean up "for 2 gays"? I wasn't sure what you meant by bored for 2 gays.
I think that this attitude may bear some resemblance to the attitude of some guests if their host is a woman -- particularly if they come from a culture where women,not men, do the cleaning -- they may think it is beneath them to do that and leave it for the host to do!
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Post by High Priestess on May 8, 2016 14:26:35 GMT
More stories on this same issue -- thinkprogress.org/economy/2016/05/07/3776353/housing-discrimination-and-airbnb/lawnewz.com/crazy/black-man-says-airbnb-host-only-accepted-him-when-he-used-his-white-profiles/www.complex.com/life/2016/05/airbnb-racist-airbnbwhileblackDO hosts have any feedback on the photo this guest used on his profile? After being declined, the guest decided to try to catch the host in a "gotcha" game, and created two fake profiles. WHen those were accepted, he called the host a "cowardly bigot" -- I think the guest's photo could be better. It does depict him clearly, but he's not smiling. Is this a friendly person or not? One can't tell, and hosts very often want to see a smiling person in the photo, as that helps them feel trust. OFten an expression in the guest's face helps a host "read into" their character. I find this guests' photo to be difficult to read -- his facial expression doesn't seem to invite engagement. As well, this guests' photo strikes me as being too close up. Some guests make the opposite mistake of using a photo that shows them far in the background where you can hardly see them, and to me that suggests someone who wants to hide, or doesnt' feel comfortable or confident about their appearance. To do the opposite and use a photo where 50% of the photograph is one's own face, really a close up of one's face, could strike some, particularly if the individual is not smiling, as a statement of overconfidence in oneself, even arrogance. Eg, "I'm shoving my face into your face." Some people's style is a personal preference for some distance. Whether they are introverted, or more emotionally cool, or for other reasons, they don't like to be too physically close to others. So if a guest uses a photo which gives the impression of standing very close to the observer, that can not only strike one as a possibly arrogant person, but also, particularly if the person isn't smiling or appearing friendly to them, this could feel threatening. My guess would also be that women hosts are likely to feel more threatened than male hosts, by a guest photo that shows a close-up of a male guest's face, in which he is not smiling.
Finally, this photo appears taken a bit off-hand, casually, in a car. That is not necessarily a problem, but it is data that a host is taking in together with everything else. A photo taken sitting inside a car suggests a person who isn't concerned about composing a professional portrait or one that shows them to advantage, but simply snapping photos quickly wherever he is, as if any photo would do as well as any other. I think if a host feels the photo took some effort and thought, they may appraise the guest as being more capable of putting consideration and thought into their stay at the host's home. A very casual photo that seems snapped off without much effort might make a host worry that the guest wont' put much effort or thoughtfulness into a stay at their home.
So those are some things that "might" be taken in by a person looking at this photo. Oddly --- one of the above articles (the law newz one) has a comments section. Among the comments posted are the usual thoughtless and sometimes crude one-liners. I posted a comment that I considered one of the most thoughtful of the entire bunch, and found later that my comment had been removed. I find this concerning, and this adds to what has been many years of experience of finding that intelligent discussion on this kind of topic is actually not wanted. It seems to me that people want to be able to make accusations of racism, but not permit their accusations to be contested. I have lost count of the number of times I have had my comments removed from threads on like topics, comments which could hardly be considered offensive -- but they were intelligent. This is the comment I posted: "THere are so many problems with this article and this guest's arrogant presumptions about why he was declined. It is not only arrogant, and presumptuous, but also unethical, to accuse someone of racism because they did not invite you into their own home. There have been many articles and stories about black individuals stating that they were declined because of their race. The fact is, no individual can know why they were declined unless that is explicitly stated. In these articles, I see no effort being made to understand the often complex and multi-faceted decision making process that hosts undergo, and I also see absolutely no willingness by these guests who were declined, to consider how they presented themselves in both their profile photo, as well as their message(s) to the host(s). Really , it is irresponsible and unethical to publish accusations of racism without giving thought to these things In this case, the photo Greg used on his profile has some issues. Greg is not smiling. Hosts like to see a smiling person who looks friendly. THis helps them trust the individual. Greg also doesn't have an expression that can easily be read -- he does not appear to be engaging the viewer, rather he seems to be shoving his face at the viewer, choosing to use a photo which is a close-up of his face. THat could be viewed as suggesting arrogance, someone who is overconfident about himself, and it could also be experienced as threatening, particularly since Greg is not smiling. Eg "OKay here is someone who "wants" to stay at my house, but he is shoving his face into mine, so it feels more like he is "demanding" to stay at my house. No thanks." Apart from this, it is presumptuous to think you can know someone else's motivations for declining. If a guest looks like a colleague a host recently had problems with at work, or a neighbor who they are in conflict with, or a friend or partner they broke up with, the host may be less inclined to accept that guest based on their personal history that arises in conjunction with that photo. All of these are absolutely acceptable reasons for a person to not want someone in their home, and all of them are totally beyond the ability of the declined guest to know anything about. As well, we have no idea if Greg may have intentionally sought out a host who he thought was likely to decline him, in order that he could play a bad faith "Gotcha" game with the host and pile onto the feeding frenzy of stories about racist discrimination on Airbnb. In another article on this same issue, a black woman named Quirtina Crittenden complained she had continually been declined by hosts. When I looked at her photo, I saw what looked like a glamorous "party" girl --- the kind of guest I have had serious problems with in the past -- the women with a "high fashion" appearance have in my experience been demanding princesses who left the worst reviews. So it wasn't her race that would cause me to decline her, but the sense I got that she might be another demanding and ungrateful Glam Girl out to visciously slap me with a bad review on her way out of my home. So again, I'd suggest people should not be presumptuous that everything dififcult that they experience is happening to them because they are black, and keep an open minded attitude when you really dont' know. ALso it helps to learn more about what hosts look for when they decide whether to accept a guest. ONly of these articles on "racism in Airbnb" addressed how hosts screen guests. And it did that in a very perfunctory way. So my thinking is, the Greg Seldens and Quirtina Crittendens and #AirbnbWhileBlack gals of the world would do best to not try to be quick to call others bigot, or racist, or set up traps to catch hosts in bad faith "gotcha" games, and concentrate on presenting themselves in a friendly and professional way in the profile photo. Yes, doubtless there are many black individuals who are getting declined based on racial discrimination. But unless you really know that this happened, it doesn't seem right or ethical to me to make such accusations. Particularly in a social climate like we have where these allegations are taken quite serious. And there really is no "defense" one can make of oneself if one is called a bigot or racist. THere's really no way to respond. Accusing someone of being a racist has a horrible finality to it in our culture -- it concludes the discussion, period, nothing left to say -- it's like judge and jury have left the room and the convicted person is there ready to be hauled away to prison. People need to think before they heave out heavy accusations like that -- and be responsible.
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Post by High Priestess on May 8, 2016 16:32:10 GMT
I am here inserting Andrew's missing comment: Deborah, I think the distinction that is often missing from these discussions is the crucial one between overt and institutional racism. Overt racism is purely a matter of an individual's bias, and of course every individual you transact with is going to have their individual biases. But what the Harvard study and the Guardian article and the #Airbnbwhileblack discussion are really examining is institutional racism, wherein an institution entrenches a racial disparity despite having no bias in and of itself. Institutional racism can occur even when none of the individuals involved in the institution are demonstrably racist, which makes the concept very difficult for a lot of people to understand. Being declined by a single host without an explicit reason does not in any way prove that it resulted from racism or any other bias. But the lived experience of racism is never about a single individual incident, but rather the cumulative weight of many of them. As a peer-to-peer platform, Airbnb transmits the prejudices of its users in ways that its conventional competitors generally don't. It logically follows that the likelier one is to be the target of negative prejudice, the more difficult it is to use the platform. There's no easy solution to this - people can't be compelled to abandon their biases. But it weighs heavily on the question of whether Airbnb has the capacity to be a responsible market leader. The ethical question concerning the "gotcha" guest creating fake profiles is an interesting one. I think it would be both highly unethical and criminally fraudulent to actually book and stay in someone's home under a false identity. But here's where that public/private issue comes back into play. Our homes are private spaces, but our Airbnb listings are very public and very exposed. Every time we respond to an inquiry we do so in a public capacity, and we expose ourselves to the risk of having that correspondence plastered all over the internet. I tend to assume that many of the inquiries I receive (as opposed to Requests) come from people with intentions other than seeking accommodation. They could be from spammers, fraudsters, journalists, investigators, researchers conducting a study - who knows. I don't write anything in the correspondence that I'd be horrified to see on Buzzfeed. Many hosts are probably unprepared for just how public things on the internet really are - I mean, a decade ago it would have been unheard of for thousands of strangers to know what the inside of your house looks like. The methodology of the guest's experiment was flawed and the conclusion that the host was a bigot was unscientific at best. But there's nothing wrong with his photo. Every guest I've ever had has had an imperfect photo at best. I'd never get any bookings if I were nitpicky about those details. The host might have had a non-racial reason for declining the request, but it seems extremely unlikely to me that the reason was that he was waiting for a guest with a better headshot to come along. At any rate, I think the discussion of racism on the platform is an important one but that focusing on an individual transaction is not a helpful way to illustrate it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ There may be a missing distinction between overt and institutional racism. HOWever, since Airbnb in its business offering rentals thru hosts is not an "institution" but rather a third party mediator between individuals, I would disagree that Airbnb is a place one can find "institutional racism" except perhaps in its own corporate business practices, hiring practices. Whatever level of institutional racism exists in its own corporate structure, this is not in my view disseminated upon millions of unrelated entrepreneureal hosts who are all engaged in their own business. I suppose an argument could be made that IF a large number of such hosts are engaging in racist practices or discriminatory views (which I don't believe there are) , that this could amount to institutional racism, but I would not agree with that view, since there is no real "institution" to which all these hosts belong -- just as I would say one can't claim there is "institutional racism" on Craiglist rentals. WHat you have is a mass of individuals doing their thing, which happens to be pasted together for access in one place. I view AIrbnb as similar to a bulletin board in that sense.
What happens in large group of people I believe could be described as cultural, but not institutional. I don't believe, as some do, that "institutional racism" surrounds us whenever we go out of our houses and engage in the world as it is in any way. Some would assert that is the case, but I don't accept such a watered-down interpretation of institutional racism that it is considered to permeate the very air everyone breathes. At that level I think we are talking about culture, not something institutional.
I would disagree that the Harvard Study, Guardian article and #AirbnbWhileBlack article were studying institutional racism. What I saw in those was a study of various hosts responding to a set of guests...not unlike Greg's experiment but done on a larger scale. Simply multiplying Greg's experiment or "gotcha" game to a larger scale doesn't change it, in my view, from being a study of individual host's responses, to a study of "INstitutional Racism". You and I may differ in our opinions on this, however, and I am sure hosts will vary in their opinions on these things.
You may find Greg's photo perfectly adequate, but I believe my comments on the photo are pertinent, and well represent responses that many hosts will have. (I shared this on another host community and one host commented that he thought the photo was problematic) Other comments you have made over the years about the kinds of guests you like and your own values suggest that you might differ from many hosts in your choices of guests or views on guests, particularly I would guess different from older hosts, hosts who have a family situation they are bringing guests into, and homeowner hosts.
IT would be interesting to present numerous guest photos and have hosts honestly state their responses to each, eg what their emotional responses were, any concerns raised, any insights they felt they had into the guest's character based on the photok, etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew then replied: We seem to be operating on different definitions of "institution" here, as the word refers not just to entities with a tangible structure but also to established social practices - like "religion" or "marriage." Generally when people in the media talk about Airbnb, they're using the tangible thing (a web service operated by a corporation) interchangeably with the social practice (which might better be termed "home sharing" or some such thing, as Airbnb is not the only player in the game). It's standard practice in sociology to measure trends in social institutions by sampling individual outcomes. It would be foolish to deny that race or any other bias trigger has an impact on outcomes in this sphere (I mean, how could it not?), but whether anything can or should be done about it is an altogether different matter. I have no prescription for this, other than that I would urge hosts to take every measure available (updated calendars, well-considered max/min stay, accurate and thorough listings) to minimize the number of times they have to do decline a Request, and to give greater weight to the guest's communication than to the other visible details.
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