. Here follows the whole thread Deborah May 6 , 2016
See the article:
www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/06/airbnb-racism-civil-rights-laws-sharing-economyA 2015 study by researchers at Harvard Business School found evidence of “widespread discrimination against African-American guests” by Airbnb hosts, and many Twitter users have shared their experiences of rejection on the short-term rental platform using the hashtag #AirbnbWhileBlack.
For many, Airbnb serves as a functional equivalent to a hotel, but the startup – and other similar internet marketplaces – exist in a grey area, potentially beyond the reach of the hard-won reforms of the civil rights movement.
“What Airbnb and many other sharing economy businesses are doing is ... moving hundreds of thousands of transactions out of the realm where they are unquestionably governed by public accommodations laws and into a realm where the legality is at best unclear,” says Nancy Leong, a law professor at the University of Denver who examines how civil rights legislation applies to companies like Airbnb in the Georgetown Law Journal.
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SOme thoughts on this: I have concerns about this article -- which has statements in it that make me quite angry. This article pastes together questionable research conclusions with outrageous suggestions. The Harvard Study about the acceptance rate of those with "black sounding names" -- is not a study about blacks, it is a study about those with "black sounding names" -- and there is a difference! People have some associations to "black sounding names" that they do not necessarily have to blacks as a group -- for instance, some would perceive/have a prejudice that use of a black-sounding name indcates lower socioeconomic class, and some might perceive/have a prejudice it suggests to that someone was more militant or political about their black identity. Given the failure to reduce the variables under study, it is hard to believe someone would buy that it was done by a major university and not Reader's Digest)
You get a call for changing the Civil Rights Laws of the United States to force people to accept people in their own private homes who they don't want in their homes, you get arguments for turning hosts into Airbnb employees who no longer have a say who they can accept or reject, and whose homes for all intents and purposes become the property of Airbnb, arguments for the "unfairness" of requiring guests to use their real names and real photos. In other words you get a heck of a lot of nonsense. I"m afraid that this kind of thinking, and this degree of "political correctness", has led to things like the ascendancy of Trump.
IN particular, I am aghast at the idea that anyone would argue that it is wrong to want to see/know who you are renting to, before you rent. THose in this article express that it is problematic to see a photo of the person who wants to stay at your house. What? We can't be trusted to make decisions on who we want in our own homes?!?! This is a view that expresses such contempt for homeowners. To argue that people should NOT be able to know to whom they rent, is both a gesture of bad faith in the homeowners themselves, as well as an incredibly arrogant view that renters should be able to occupy other's homes forcibly or by stealth.
If this is the direction the "progressives" in the nation are going, why are we surprised to see people voting for a megalomanic showman??
Just today I had an inquiry from a prospective guest. She did not have a photo of herself on her profile. WHen I asked her to add one on, it turned out she was a black woman, and a strikingly likeable one at that -- so cheery and radiant looking, and a professional woman, the purpose of whose visit sounded absolutely legitimate -- all in all, a perfect match for my house. It took me no time at all to hit the "accept" button. I can't imagine that most others with whom she inquires wouldn't do likewise.
Last Edit: May 15, 2016 at 6:14pm by Deborah
maggie
Knows the Neighborhood
***
maggie Post by maggie on May 6, 2016 at 9:29am
Show me who you are so i don't need
' 3 references, proof of stable employment, 1st last & security and interview'! Sorry, I am not running a hotel here!
andrewMay 6, 2016 at 1:28pm
Deborah, the fact that you aren't personally practicing racial discrimination does not mean that it isn't a very real thing that minorities live with, that reaches deeply into every facet of our everyday lives and shapes our opportunities, and that wouldn't be drastically worse in the absence of legal protections against discrimination. One thing that is utterly sick about the discourse on the matter in the US is that virtually any discussion about the real-world impact of inequality (be it gender, race, sexuality, religion, or immigration status) is instantly hijacked by the right wing by being derided as "political correctness." Many efforts to address inequality are deeply flawed and may do more harm than good. But can we not assess them on their merits without foaming at the mouth about the fact that, to people who might not have the same set of privileges others do, they are still deeply consequential? Is it really a reasonable reaction to elect authoritarian, race-baiting demagogues into high office?
The article does raise some interesting points that, whether we as in-home hosts like it or not, are going to become increasingly relevant as Airbnb and similar companies take a larger share of the market. I do agree that hosts should not be forced to accept any guest into their homes against their will, for any reason - and by no means would I choose to be one if this were not the case. But let's get a bit slippery-slope for a moment. Imagine a hypothetical place in which Airbnb has come to dominate the accommodation market so thoroughly that all available rooms (be they in homes or hotels, etc.) are listed there. And on top of that, the hosts with vacancies in this place overwhelmingly share the same bias against people like yourself. (Whatever demographic detail you want to zoom in on there is fine, but I can't help but mention that the vast majority of the world's countries are deeply hostile to lesbians). Now, of course this place is not going to be your first choice of a holiday destination, but perhaps a dear friend is getting married there (like the gay couple in Texas that you posted about) and you need a place to stay for their wedding. But as you request accommodations with your public profile, you keep getting declined over and over - to the point that it seems nowhere will take you. Perhaps you finally do get a booking, and when you arrive the host promptly turns you away because they don't take kindly to Deborahs around here. Ultimately, you're left with no options, for reasons entirely beyond your control.
This is what life has been like for black people in America for most of our history, only the reality is a lot worse. It's what life is like for LGBT people in most of the world to this day. It's a scenario that we have good reason to take measures to prevent.
The scenario may sound outlandish, and of course it would be very much so in a diverse and cosmopolitan place like the Bay Area. But most places are not anything like Berkeley. The progressivism that's easy to deride when expressed in extremes is still responsible for your community being a place where people like you and me can feel safe and able to live our lives in peace. It's 2016 and we're still fighting for trans people to be able to use a public bathroom, so it would be ludicrous to say that the battles against discrimination have been settled by the free market.
What this means for the sharing economy is a subject that I would like to see settled without lumping private homes in with "public accommodations." Your house is not the same thing as a Walgreen's or a post office, and as a B&B it exists at an intersection between public and private that has yet to be defined in any nationwide legislation. But the long-term goal of achieving that distinction is not well-served by accusations of "political correctness" made at those who point out the ramifications of ignoring the "public" aspect of that intersection too broadly. It's in our best interests to not be associated with bigotry or any loopholes allowing for it.
I stand by my advice to hosts - even in countries without anti-discrimination laws - to never post discriminatory statements in their listings, nor to reveal discriminatory intentions when declining guests. I would also fully support Airbnb in making the good-business-sense choice of removing hosts who did otherwise. If regulatory policy were to take a similar approach - allowing private discretion but forbidding explicit bias - I suppose it would be a fair compromise.
carolyncarolyn Avatar
May 6, 2016 at 5:31pm
Deborah and Andrew, you both make good points. I think that, if Airbnb ever has to legislate this issue, I'd support the removal of hosts who blatantly discriminate. And, I appreciate anti-discrimination legislation in the US. Bigotry and ignorance is so pervasive here that we NEED regulation to insure opportunity and fair treatment for all.
As for "political correctness:" It is unfortunate that the term has been hijacked by extremists. We need a new phrase. How about "Decency?"
Deborah May 6, 2016 at 8:37pm
Andrew I hope that you didn't read into my comments that I was advocating hosts discriminate against any group of people! I definitely do not advocate that, and like you, I would not encourage any host to make any explicitly discriminatory statements in their ad. I take the same approach as you on this and suggest hosts never make any statements revealing any discrimination when declining guests. I say this as much from a belief that it is the right thing to do, as well as to protect them from legal consequences, as well as to protect guests from feeling hurt.
One of the things I find most ironic, is that in this article referred to here, as well as in other articles on the same topic of black individuals feeling discriminated against, (and there are many articles on this now) , I have not read of one single instance of any host actually making a discriminatory statement regarding race, or even any evidence which showed intent to discriminate on the basis of race. All of this has been hypothetical -- perhaps presumed or imagined -- and for that reason, the amount of hullaballoo over this is concerning to me. (Doubtless there is some discrimination on race by some hosts, as racism and other "isms" exist everywhere, but I have not seen any clear evidence of this being presented...) By contrast, there have been several cases in the news about people discriminating against gays -- one of an Airbnb host in Texas who evicted a gay guest, another of an owner of a B&B in Hawaii who refused to accept a lesbian couple, the case on the New HOst Forum itself of the host who actually posted there asking how to filter out gay people so she needn't have us as guests! ANd then the infamous wedding cake court case -- folks who are reluctant to bake a cake for gays -- as well as the refusal of one County Clerk to marry gay individuals. So if we go on cases of overt discrimination, we see a lot more directed at gays.
As well -- there is doubtless some very real "bigotry" in the world and distrust. Yet from my training in psychology and psychotherapy I know that you cannot heal something by rejecting it and approaching with a scolding attitude. THis is the impasse we are in with racism today. I would love to see racism be healed, but instead I see it being scolded and those accused of it, called names and shoved off into corners -- as if we would like to see them fall off the edge of the earth. I don't think this approach is one consistent with real healing.
Whatever society tries to push away, into the shadow, to scold and banish into corners, will not be contained there.
As Carl Jung said, "Whatever is relegated to the unconscious, comes to us as fate."
For instance, I always find it ironic and dorky to see (scolding) signs and protests such as "stop the hate," "hate is bad", "dont' hate" -- in essence these people are hating hate. Everyone "hates" something or someone at some time, and the massive amount of denial of hate, simply creates a huge counterforce, because now we have to "hate" the dorks who sanctimoniously indicate that they hate hate.
A sure way to stop hate: make signs saying "stop hate."
If I get declined because I'm a lesbian -- and I agree it is quite possible that many people out there dont' like Deborahs! --- one of the very last things I would want to do is try to force my way into the home of someone who didnt' want me there. I am glad you also would not want to see that happen Andrew!! In fact, one of the reasons I believe so strongly in supporting hosts' right to decline whoever they dont' want, and for whatever reason, is because the world is not always a safe place for women, and I believe that women have a right to feel safe in their own home -- when it may be hard to find that feeling of safety just out the front door.
As far as getting declined from all sorts of AIrbnb's if I tried to go to Texas -- I dont' really know what I would do -- but one thing I would definitely not do is start a TWitter Column called #AirbnbWhileLesbian. If I was declined by someone, how could I know why? Was it because I'm female? Because I'm a lesbian? Because I'm an astrologer? Because I'm not a Christian? Because I'm Pagan? Because I practice Divination? Is the person worried I might be a Devil Worshipper? Do they think I might be a Krazy Kalifornian? I am a multifaceted person and I cannot assume to know what facet a person might be reacting to, unless they tell me, or I get an intuition about that -- (and intuitions are much more likely to be obtained in person, as opposed to through email message) Or then again, perhaps I could do a Tarot reading to try to find out why I was declined. I might believe the answer I got that way, but I wouldn't call CBS news and insist on it as God's own truth.
Last Edit: May 15, 2016 at 11:48am by Deborah
andrewMay 7, 2016 at 5:22am
The reason you can visibly *see* more discrimination directed at gays than at black people is that racial discrimination is illegal in all 50 states, whereas anti-gay discrimination is only illegal in 22 of them. Sexual orientation is not considered a protected class under the remaining states' non-discrimination laws, and that enables people who choose not to provide goods and services to gays to be more overt about their reasons for doing so. But refusal of services is just one of hundreds of ways that discrimination can occur, and it ranks fairly low in impact compared to stuff like mass incarceration. If you believe it's happening more to gays than to blacks, that's probably because you are gay and not black, and you have more intimate experience of one than the other.
There are all kinds of ways to make bad arguments in support of a good cause. "Stop Hate" is, of course, as empty and witless of a slogan as "Make America Great Again." But this is not a reason to denigrate those who are trying to deal with the issues that would cause someone to carry such a sign. I'd rather respond to a bad argument with a better one - not an exasperated gripe about the fact that we have to have that conversation in the first place. And that's ultimately what those decrying "political correctness" are doing. That argument is every bit as shrill and sanctimonious as what it claims to be opposing.
I don't think we disagree about this inasmuch as it effects our liberties as Airbnb hosts. Neither of us would wish to lose the right to refuse a stranger entry into our homes. But this is a Straw Man, because no one is actually trying to take that right away. The debate referenced in the Guardian article is, crucially, about the legal question of whether Airbnb itself is a public accommodation - not about whether an individual host is. And if using the platform has caused people to experience the kind of discrimination that would be unlawful in other contexts, that is a valid consideration to make. As I've posted on before, I definitely know the frustration of being declined by a dozen hosts in a small city for no good reason and ultimately settling for a hotel that I couldn't really afford. It's far from the worst type of oppression one could encounter, but it's the kind of issue that will be a much bigger deal if Airbnb is an industry leader than if it remains an underdog.
There's a lot of content to unpack in that conversation without dragging in Trump and Jung and protest signs and other things that don't have the slightest thing to do with it.
DeborahMay 7, 2016 at 8:28am
Andrew, you're right about the issues why gay discrimination could be more "visible." , particularly in regards to what you say about the laws in the various US states. Yet as regards these articles on Airbnb rentals discrimination on the basis of race, I strongly feel that it is incumbent upon those alleging racism, to do so responsibly, with demonstrable proof. I have not seen that happening in several of these articles, which seems irresponsible.
At the same time, regarding my views or those of anyone else on this topic -- whether we are part of the group being discussed or not (whether we are black or not ) is not something I view as relevant in terms of our right to and our ability to apply critical thinking to the subject. To suggest that someone like myself who has been thinking about these topics for 20-30 years, may not be well informed because we dont' happen to be of the right race, is not a passable argument. That is a view that issues out of Identity Politics and I don't accept that philosophy.
The Identity Politics philosophy can be dismissive of the right of those outside a group to comment upon issues bearing upon that group. In fact I think actually the reverse may at times be true -- that those who are members of a particular group, may at times be less capable of objectivity on issues where they have a significant personal investment in their own pet theory. If people are very motivated to see racism here there and everywhere, are they likely to be as objective as someone who does not have a similar investment in proving their own theory? This was some of the point I was trying to make about presumptions about other's motives.
Trump and Jung -- if you don't see how something I mention is relevant, it might be better to ask me to explain rather than dismiss it as irrelevant. Carl JUng -- his thoughts on the unconscious are relevant to this topic, but you'd have to bear with me through at least 10 -15 pages to explain it decently-- so wait for my book on the subject!! Re Trump -- it's probably too confusing and getting too far off the subject to start talking about Trump in relation to this, I admit -- again I should write a long essay or book on it, rather than try to get into that here -- this issue is certainly not central to the topic at hand, but I think it provides information on the importance of how we talk about these issues.
For instance --- comments like this from the article above:
Fifty years later, however, the segregated lunch counter is making a stealthy comeback, thanks to the innovations (and regressions) of what has become known as the sharing economy. ..Leong worries that our acceptance of discrimination on platforms like Airbnb is indicative of a broader trend in US public opinion.. Leong's view is that there is a colorable argument that features of the platform, such as encouraging users to post pictures of themselves and use their real first names, are actions by Airbnb that increase the likelihood of discrimination.”
And it's this kind of thing -- making assertions about widespread racism at work (and racism of a level that takes us back to the 1950's?!!?really?) , with little evidence of that -- that makes people angry -- I find myself angry at Leong's expression of distrust for average Airbnb hosts -- apparently we can't be trusted to see the guest's photo and know their name, because we are likely to be racists! That makes me livid.
. I think the rise of Trump is a phenomenon feeding on a groundswell of people feeling both angry and helpless. Because I'd rather that there not be such a large number of people supporting someone like Trump, and because I'd like racism in society to be healed rather than scolded, I think that the way we approach these issues does matter. Taking action to heal brings people together. Scolding and punitive measures drive wedges that split off large number of folks, and they dont' just fall off the face of the earth, (as some might wish they would) but emerge in a force somewhere else.
www.nytimes.com/2016/05/05/upshot/what-i-got-wrong-about-donald-trump.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-newsEg One New York City commenter on that article wrote:
Liberals have abandoned the working classes to instead focus endlessly on identity and racial politics that inevitably turn into attacks on heterosexual white males, who are tired of hearing how it is they and their "privilege" who are the cause of any and all social ills in America and, in fact, the entire world.
The Left comes off as insufferable snobs and scolds who seem clueless that their smug sense of superiority and endless moralizing has the opposite effect - they make even politically moderate people support and sympathize with Trump and his followers, the very people who the Left denigrates as "racists" and "xenophobes", without any recognition that they might, just might, have legitimate grievances and worries concerning their marginalization and economic conditions.
Enter Trump, stage Right.
Last Edit: May 15, 2016 at 11:53am by Deborah
DeborahMay 7, 2016 at 8:56am
Here's another article about alleged racism/discrimination on Airbnb -- there are a lot of these articles appearing now -- which goes to support the point I was making, that this issue, which may actually turn out to be often an issue of guests learning how to use suitable profile photos , is getting a disproportionate amount of media attention. This is concerning when we live in a setting where any allegations of racism can provoke serious consequences. Airbnb doesn't often speak out to address a group of guests' or host's concerns, but they have been pressured to speak out on this issue, which I think emphasizes how important it is that we speak responsibly on these issues, since accusations can have such high-level consequences.
uproxx.com/life/airbnbwhileblack-racism-sharing-economy/
In this case, it still is not clear to me that one can presume, as the author did, that "racism happened." The Richmond Virgina man asked to stay as a guest at a man's home, using his own photo, and was declined. He submitted a couple other requests using fake profiles, this time including photos of white men in the requests. (Which by the way is a violation of Airbnb terms and conditions to do...one can't create more than one account...and I would guess that setting up a profile and using someone else's photo on the account is also prohibited) THose were accepted by that same host.
Did the host reject the guest initially solely because he was black? Or did he reject him because something in the man's face seemed unfriendly, or threatening, the guest wasn't smiling, or was covering up part of his face, or because the man looked too young, or bore a resemblance to a neighbor or work colleague he didn't like, or due to some other "gut" response, or any other of a myriad of reasons? Was the photo unprofessional? Perhaps the host rightly intuited that this guest was someone who was looking to set up a trap for someone to fall into, a racism "Gotcha" Game. Or did the photos of the white men just appear eminently likeable to the host for some reason, perhaps resembling his brother, father, friend? THe problem is, we can't know. Because we cannot know, I think it is irresponsible to say, "Racism happened." And because a person was accused of something which in our culture can result in much social opprobrium being directed at them (it is a very serious and heavy accusation to call someone a "racist" in our society -- yet this is often done so very casually, almost offhandedly), I would say that to irresponsibly impute racism to someone's motivations, is also unethical.
The host community has actually often helped hosts with getting an appropriate photo on their profile. A surpising number of hosts use photos that are unprofessional...or if not unprofessional, may just not come across well to someone of another generation or way of life. If hosts often use poor judgement in their profile photo, it stands to reason guests are just as likely to make the same mistake. ANd younger guests in particular I think may make mistakes this way. We live in times when young people sometimes show up at work with their pants hanging down to their knees. So it stands to reason that some people may not know how to select appropriate profile photos.
Even if there was a way to prove that this particular hosts' motivations were discriminatory on the basis of race...that would only prove that there is one host who had a discriminatory motivation in one instance. It doesn't indicate that would happen in every instance with the same host and it doesn't imply anything about any other host. ANother question to ask would be -- did this guest intentionally send a request to someone he thought was more likely to decline him, in order to get a story out of it? We know nothing about why this guest selected this host. WE deserve to know more, particularly if someone is being accused of racism, and even more so, if the whole Airbnb enterprise is being accused of supporting racism. There are so many problems with trying to build a case alleging widespread racism based on one or a few instances. The more accusations emerge from such a weak argument, the more unethical, in my view, are the emergent accusations.
I also consider it a form of harassment to do something like this to a host....to issue 3 requests, 2 fake ones in disguise. This is a "bad faith" attempt to gain weak evidence for a claim that someone clearly has an investment in being able to "prove".
gothamist.com/2016/05/06/public_advocate_accuses_airbnb_of_w.php
money.cnn.com/2016/05/06/news/airbnb-black-discrimination-airbnbwhileblack/
philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2016/05/06/airbnbwhileblack-black-users-snubbed-over-race-on-airbnb/
Last Edit: May 15, 2016 at 11:56am by Deborah
becksMay 7, 2016 at 12:13pm
I haven't examined the methodology used in the research article but I do think it would be incredibly naive to believe that there are no racist Airbnb hosts! Of course there are. It's nothing to do with "political correctness" (god I loathe that phrase). They will not advertise the fact, of course, because they are well-schooled in the legal ramifications and the moral repugnance that many others will feel. (Having said that, I did come across a listing in Moscow that stated "White Europeans only". I was going to message him and ask if he could make an exception for my black partner who was born and bred in England). However, when it comes to discriminating against certain nationalities - there are many examples on the Airbnb Groups where hosts have openly stated that they will no longer host anyone from, say, Asia, because they had one bad experience and therefore assume the other 4 billion people will be the same. I've even seen hosts recommending to others that they decline guests from Korea and China.
Today there is another example on the Community Centre, this time openly discriminating against Muslims:
community.airbnb.com/t5/General-Hosting/dont-like-the-look-of-a-guest-who-has-booked-can-i-decline-or/m-p/83607#M22802
And another nice example here where a host rants on a reply to a review calling the guest a 'stinky Indian':
community.airbnb.com/t5/General-Hosting/Warning-bad-guest/m-p/68149#M18591
although I see that his reply has been taken down from his profile. But I read it and it was pretty shocking.
Last Edit: May 7, 2016 at 12:14pm by becks
DeborahMay 7, 2016 at 12:36pm
Definitely, becks I am sure there are hosts who are "racist" --- given the vast number of people who are now Airbnb hosts, that would stand to reason!!! I just think it's a big leap to assert that anyone in particular is "racist" because they declined someone, or that "racism" was involved when a black person got declined, or that Airbnb is "racist" due to the results of a study that involves shoddy research and lazy intellectualism. But definitely I do not disagree with you or Andrew or anyone who asserts that there is racism out there in the world, and in the hosting world too. That can't be denied.
Thanks too for including the links to those threads on the Community Center.
I think one of the difficulties with looking at racism in a context like this, is that you have hosts who make a variety of separate decisions about guests, each decision being potentially a complex mix of mental and emotional factors, gut responses, subjective assessments of the guest's presentation in their photo, their message, their self-description, their stated purpose, as well as the whole history of the hosts' past experience with guests, as well as their experience with any individuals that this present guest may bear similarity to in their own mind. So the whole decision making process can be quite complex.
As well, there are some cultural differences, which at times correlate to ethnicity, and to what extent a host is concerned is able to unpack the concerns about culture and its impact on guest expectations, vs concerns about race/ethnicity which may be misplaced, is hard to know. For instance -- in response to many hosts posting about problems with guests from CHina or India, other hosts have chimed in that people from those nations may come from upper classes and be used to having servants who take care of cleaning chores, and expect the same of their host. So to what extent can the culture be disentangled from the race -- ideally hosts take every situation on its own merits when deciding whether to accept or decline. But the reality is, hosts have had their places trashed and not always had Airbnb reimbursement, so sometimes an effort to be cautious and protect one's home might result in a strategy that from the outside could appear "racist." People tend to make decisions based on past negative experience. And it would be foolish for someone to knowingly accept guests who their past expereince suggests might not treat their place well, simply because someone has made them feel guilty that not to do so is "racist."
Also, I think our culture is too much in the habit of dismissing people completely as "racists" when in fact they may have simply made one or more unfair/discriminatory decisions based on race in one instance, whereas this may not be their general pattern. People are complex and can at times be unfair or prejudicial towards a certain group, while not necessarily being inveterate or hardened "racists". This sort of complexity of human nature is not something that one can sense in the reigning PC politics on racial issues, which are very unfortunately often too simplistic.
Add to that, that any given host might have a different way of making their decisions about guests, from one day to the next. So for instance even if someone is concerned about "Indian" guests, like the host who posted that thread in the CC -- perhaps eventually she ends up with an Indian guest who is quite the opposite of her expectations, and she learns to be more trusting, or how to more expertly screen guests. People can change.
I think part of the value of the host community is in helping people be more refined and sophisticated in their decision making process, so that they don't feel the need to exclude whole categories of people, or an entire race/ethnicity. IN order to be able to receive such help and education, people need to be able to honestly tell their stories and express their concerns without being shamed off the platform.
I would LOVE it if the issue of race/ethnicity or other minority status of guests (eg LGBT guests) would become something that the Airbnb host community could reveal it was capable of discussing, with more nuance, subtlety, tolerance, sophistication and openness to a variety of points of view, than is often found in general public discourse on these issues. Wouldn't it be great if hosts actually could model what a more open discussion could look like? I think that could greatly benefit everyone involved, and allow all sides to be heard. I think more than anything else, what human beings want is to be able to share their experiences and be heard. I say this as someone who has struggled to contribute to the important public dialogue(s) on racial issues, and often have experienced being utterly dismissed, sometimes called "racist", simply because I refused to tow the progressive party line. (The exceptional intolerance and hostility to free exchange of thought of many progressives actually strikes me as bearing more resemblance to what has traditionally been referred to as conservatism....)
In fact I think that laws in most places do not prohibit hosts discriminating on any basis, could be viewed in a positive light, in that this could potentially allow hosts to be more honest and open about their decision making process, than they would otherwise.
Last Edit: May 7, 2016 at 1:01pm by Deborah
becks
May 7, 2016 at 1:28pm
I agree Deborah that open discussion is always good! And I'll admit that I find it very hard to be generous to people who, in my opinion, display breathtakingly arrogant assumptions about an entire culture/nation based on nothing but hearsay. I'm not including you in this group, by the way, but I have to ask what do you mean by "our culture"? Do you mean white, educated, western...? But that assumes such a lot! It's like that whole debate you mention about Chinese tourists being rich and used to servants - it's just bollocks, really. Yes, there is plenty of evidence that the Chinese nouveau riche now travelling the world often behave appallingly. The Chinese government has got involved, its been so bad. But these are not people who use Airbnb. They are on package tours, for the most part. It's not so much about culture but about background, class, expectations, I think. Poorly educated people who have never travelled outside their own region (let alone country) before are often going to be problematic guests because the excitement of travel can quickly become resentment and frustration that things aren't like back home. I've had my share of them and none of them have been from Asia..... maybe you can guess where they were from.... I don't even like saying 'poorly educated', to be honest! I've met plenty of well-educated people who are complete and utter feckwits, likewise people with no education who are very wise.
A student traveller, keen to explore the world on a budget, is going to be a vastly different guest from a couple with more money than they can spend in a lifetime and who are constantly looking for new excitements. Doesn't matter their ethnicity or what country they're from.
Last Edit: May 7, 2016 at 1:29pm by becks
becksMay 7, 2016 at 3:47pm
Meant to also say that hosts who have never travelled and have a very insular view of the world are more likely to have problems dealing with guests from other countries. It works both ways. I have a prime example right now. One guest is super cool and keen to embrace her trip, asking all kinds of questions about Scottish politics and history, it's all very interesting! The other one... not so much. She's here visiting her son and when I pointed her in the direction of the local large supermarkets as she asked, she immediately said 'oh no, my son said that was a dodgy area, I won't go there'. You what?? I felt insulted, frankly. I do my shopping there regularly. Yes, it's a neighbourhood with a lot of immigrants and is not very genteel. But it's perfectly safe and friendly. I wanted to say nobody will give a flying shit about you there lady, unless you openly display your stupid snootiness. Then they'll let you have it and you'll deserve it. Actually, that's not true! No matter how rude and ignorant she is, I'm sure that everyone would still be polite and friendly. They'd just roll their eyes after she left!
Last Edit: May 7, 2016 at 3:54pm by becks
DeborahMay 7, 2016 at 4:50pm
Becks, you mean where I said this?
Deborah Avatar
May 7, 2016 at 12:36pm Deborah said:
Also, I think our culture is too much in the habit of dismissing people completely as "racists" when in fact they may have simply made one or more unfair/discriminatory decisions based on race in one instance, whereas this may not be their general pattern.
Yes, I meant something like educated, Western, liberal US culture, perhaps First World Culture -- the "culture" one sees represented in articles in the mainstream media, predominant at major universities, an urban and educated culture, the culture issuing out of civil rights work, and out of the multicultural-diversity work and theories in academia, including Identity POlitics theory, the culture in government leadership, and the "values" of the more Democratic and liberal of my nation at least. As well as the culture that I find myself immersed in.
I dont' think that as hosts it is easy to escape the difficulty we are faced with, that we have to make decisions about who to accept, based on really very little information. ANd add to that, humans tend to be creatures of habit and who look for patterns. "I had a bad experience the last 3 times I _______ so I won't _____ any more." Fill in the blanks. It isn't skillful to make arrogant assumptions, but in fact that is what I am arguing that those who accused hosts and/or Airbnb of racism were doing in these various news stories, and the Harvard study. Making arrogant assumptions.
Olivier FrançoisMay 8, 2016 at 5:35am
Even if this is an US airbnb issue the same happens all over the world. Another 'topic' is hosts discrimination. As a gay host some guests do things they would never do to other host. At least once I personally heard guests whispering "No need to tidy up or to clean, we are not going to be bored for 2 gays" and let the house in a total mess.
DeborahMay 8, 2016 at 6:03am
Olivier, did your guests leave the place a mess because they didnt' want to clean up "for 2 gays"? I wasn't sure what you meant by bored for 2 gays.
I think that this attitude may bear some resemblance to the attitude of some guests if their host is a woman -- particularly if they come from a culture where women,not men, do the cleaning -- they may think it is beneath them to do that and leave it for the host to do!
More stories on this same issue --
thinkprogress.org/economy/2016/05/07/3776353/housing-discrimination-and-airbnb/
lawnewz.com/crazy/black-man-says-airbnb-host-only-accepted-him-when-he-used-his-white-profiles/
www.complex.com/life/2016/05/airbnb-racist-airbnbwhileblackDO hosts have any feedback on the photo this guest used on his profile?
After being declined, the guest decided to try to catch the host in a "gotcha" game, and created two fake profiles. WHen those were accepted, he called the host a "cowardly bigot" --
I think the guest's photo could be better. It does depict him clearly, but he's not smiling. Is this a friendly person or not? One can't tell, and hosts very often want to see a smiling person in the photo, as that helps them feel trust. OFten an expression in the guest's face helps a host "read into" their character. I find this guests' photo to be difficult to read -- his facial expression doesn't seem to invite engagement.
As well, this guests' photo strikes me as being too close up. Some guests make the opposite mistake of using a photo that shows them far in the background where you can hardly see them, and to me that suggests someone who wants to hide, or doesnt' feel comfortable or confident about their appearance. To do the opposite and use a photo where 50% of the photograph is one's own face, really a close up of one's face, could strike some, particularly if the individual is not smiling, as a statement of overconfidence in oneself, even arrogance. Eg, "I'm shoving my face into your face." Some people's style is a personal preference for some distance. Whether they are introverted, or more emotionally cool, or for other reasons, they don't like to be too physically close to others. So if a guest uses a photo which gives the impression of standing very close to the observer, that can not only strike one as a possibly arrogant person, but also, particularly if the person isn't smiling or appearing friendly to them, this could feel threatening. My guess would also be that women hosts are likely to feel more threatened than male hosts, by a guest photo that shows a close-up of a male guest's face, in which he is not smiling.
Finally, this photo appears taken a bit off-hand, casually, in a car. That is not necessarily a problem, but it is data that a host is taking in together with everything else. A photo taken sitting inside a car suggests a person who isn't concerned about composing a professional portrait or one that shows them to advantage, but simply snapping photos quickly wherever he is, as if any photo would do as well as any other. I think if a host feels the photo took some effort and thought, they may appraise the guest as being more capable of putting consideration and thought into their stay at the host's home. A very casual photo that seems snapped off without much effort might make a host worry that the guest wont' put much effort or thoughtfulness into a stay at their home.
So those are some things that "might" be taken in by a person looking at this photo.
Oddly --- one of the above articles (the law newz one) has a comments section. Among the comments posted are the usual thoughtless and sometimes crude one-liners. I posted a comment that I considered one of the most thoughtful of the entire bunch, and found later that my comment had been removed. I find this concerning, and this adds to what has been many years of experience of finding that intelligent discussion on this kind of topic is actually not wanted. It seems to me that people want to be able to make accusations of racism, but not permit their accusations to be contested.
I have lost count of the number of times I have had my comments removed from threads on like topics, comments which could hardly be considered offensive -- but they were intelligent.
This is the comment I posted:
"THere are so many problems with this article and this guest's arrogant presumptions about why he was declined. It is not only arrogant, and presumptuous, but also unethical, to accuse someone of racism because they did not invite you into their own home.
There have been many articles and stories about black individuals stating that they were declined because of their race. The fact is, no individual can know why they were declined unless that is explicitly stated. In these articles, I see no effort being made to understand the often complex and multi-faceted decision making process that hosts undergo, and I also see absolutely no willingness by these guests who were declined, to consider how they presented themselves in both their profile photo, as well as their message(s) to the host(s). Really , it is irresponsible and unethical to publish accusations of racism without giving thought to these things
In this case, the photo Greg used on his profile has some issues. Greg is not smiling. Hosts like to see a smiling person who looks friendly. THis helps them trust the individual. Greg also doesn't have an expression that can easily be read -- he does not appear to be engaging the viewer, rather he seems to be shoving his face at the viewer, choosing to use a photo which is a close-up of his face. THat could be viewed as suggesting arrogance, someone who is overconfident about himself, and it could also be experienced as threatening, particularly since Greg is not smiling.
Eg "OKay here is someone who "wants" to stay at my house, but he is shoving his face into mine, so it feels more like he is "demanding" to stay at my house. No thanks."
Apart from this, it is presumptuous to think you can know someone else's motivations for declining. If a guest looks like a colleague a host recently had problems with at work, or a neighbor who they are in conflict with, or a friend or partner they broke up with, the host may be less inclined to accept that guest based on their personal history that arises in conjunction with that photo. All of these are absolutely acceptable reasons for a person to not want someone in their home, and all of them are totally beyond the ability of the declined guest to know anything about.
As well, we have no idea if Greg may have intentionally sought out a host who he thought was likely to decline him, in order that he could play a bad faith "Gotcha" game with the host and pile onto the feeding frenzy of stories about racist discrimination on Airbnb.
In another article on this same issue, a black woman named Quirtina Crittenden complained she had continually been declined by hosts. When I looked at her photo, I saw what looked like a glamorous "party" girl --- the kind of guest I have had serious problems with in the past -- the women with a "high fashion" appearance have in my experience been demanding princesses who left the worst reviews. So it wasn't her race that would cause me to decline her, but the sense I got that she might be another demanding and ungrateful Glam Girl out to visciously slap me with a bad review on her way out of my home. So again, I'd suggest people should not be presumptuous that everything dififcult that they experience is happening to them because they are black, and keep an open minded attitude when you really dont' know. ALso it helps to learn more about what hosts look for when they decide whether to accept a guest. ONly of these articles on "racism in Airbnb" addressed how hosts screen guests. And it did that in a very perfunctory way.
So my thinking is, the Greg Seldens and Quirtina Crittendens and #AirbnbWhileBlack gals of the world would do best to not try to be quick to call others bigot, or racist, or set up traps to catch hosts in bad faith "gotcha" games, and concentrate on presenting themselves in a friendly and professional way in the profile photo. Yes, doubtless there are many black individuals who are getting declined based on racial discrimination. But unless you really know that this happened, it doesn't seem right or ethical to me to make such accusations.
Particularly in a social climate like we have where these allegations are taken quite serious. And there really is no "defense" one can make of oneself if one is called a bigot or racist. THere's really no way to respond. Accusing someone of being a racist has a horrible finality to it in our culture -- it concludes the discussion, period, nothing left to say -- it's like judge and jury have left the room and the convicted person is there ready to be hauled away to prison. People need to think before they heave out heavy accusations like that -- and be responsible.
Last Edit: May 14, 2016 at 8:45pm by Deborah
andrewMay 8, 2016 at 9:11am
Deborah, I think the distinction that is often missing from these discussions is the crucial one between overt and institutional racism. Overt racism is purely a matter of an individual's bias, and of course every individual you transact with is going to have their individual biases. But what the Harvard study and the Guardian article and the #Airbnbwhileblack discussion are really examining is institutional racism, wherein an institution entrenches a racial disparity despite having no bias in and of itself. Institutional racism can occur even when none of the individuals involved in the institution are demonstrably racist, which makes the concept very difficult for a lot of people to understand.
Being declined by a single host without an explicit reason does not in any way prove that it resulted from racism or any other bias. But the lived experience of racism is never about a single individual incident, but rather the cumulative weight of many of them. As a peer-to-peer platform, Airbnb transmits the prejudices of its users in ways that its conventional competitors generally don't. It logically follows that the likelier one is to be the target of negative prejudice, the more difficult it is to use the platform. There's no easy solution to this - people can't be compelled to abandon their biases. But it weighs heavily on the question of whether Airbnb has the capacity to be a responsible market leader.
The ethical question concerning the "gotcha" guest creating fake profiles is an interesting one. I think it would be both highly unethical and criminally fraudulent to actually book and stay in someone's home under a false identity. But here's where that public/private issue comes back into play. Our homes are private spaces, but our Airbnb listings are very public and very exposed. Every time we respond to an inquiry we do so in a public capacity, and we expose ourselves to the risk of having that correspondence plastered all over the internet. I tend to assume that many of the inquiries I receive (as opposed to Requests) come from people with intentions other than seeking accommodation. They could be from spammers, fraudsters, journalists, investigators, researchers conducting a study - who knows. I don't write anything in the correspondence that I'd be horrified to see on Buzzfeed. Many hosts are probably unprepared for just how public things on the internet really are - I mean, a decade ago it would have been unheard of for thousands of strangers to know what the inside of your house looks like.
The methodology of the guest's experiment was flawed and the conclusion that the host was a bigot was unscientific at best. But there's nothing wrong with his photo. Every guest I've ever had has had an imperfect photo at best. I'd never get any bookings if I were nitpicky about those details. The host might have had a non-racial reason for declining the request, but it seems extremely unlikely to me that the reason was that he was waiting for a guest with a better headshot to come along. At any rate, I think the discussion of racism on the platform is an important one but that focusing on an individual transaction is not a helpful way to illustrate it.
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May 8, 2016 at 9:32am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on May 8, 2016 at 9:32am
There may be a missing distinction between overt and institutional racism. HOWever, since Airbnb in its business offering rentals thru hosts is not an "institution" but rather a third party mediator between individuals, I would disagree that Airbnb is a place one can find "institutional racism" except perhaps in its own corporate business practices, hiring practices. Whatever level of institutional racism exists in its own corporate structure, this is not in my view disseminated upon millions of unrelated entrepreneureal hosts who are all engaged in their own business. I suppose an argument could be made that IF a large number of such hosts are engaging in racist practices or discriminatory views (which I don't believe there are) , that this could amount to institutional racism, but I would not agree with that view, since there is no real "institution" to which all these hosts belong -- just as I would say one can't claim there is "institutional racism" on Craiglist rentals. WHat you have is a mass of individuals doing their thing, which happens to be pasted together for access in one place. I view AIrbnb as similar to a bulletin board in that sense.
What happens in large group of people I believe could be described as cultural, but not institutional. I don't believe, as some do, that "institutional racism" surrounds us whenever we go out of our houses and engage in the world as it is in any way. Some would assert that is the case, but I don't accept such a watered-down interpretation of institutional racism that it is considered to permeate the very air everyone breathes. At that level I think we are talking about culture, not something institutional.
I would disagree that the Harvard Study, Guardian article and #AirbnbWhileBlack article were studying institutional racism. What I saw in those was a study of various hosts responding to a set of guests...not unlike Greg's experiment but done on a larger scale. Simply multiplying Greg's experiment or "gotcha" game to a larger scale doesn't change it, in my view, from being a study of individual host's responses, to a study of "INstitutional Racism". You and I may differ in our opinions on this, however, and I am sure hosts will vary in their opinions on these things.
You may find Greg's photo perfectly adequate, but I believe my comments on the photo are pertinent, and well represent responses that many hosts will have. (I shared this on another host community and one host commented that he thought the photo was problematic) Other comments you have made over the years about the kinds of guests you like and your own values suggest that you might differ from many hosts in your choices of guests or views on guests, particularly I would guess different from older hosts, hosts who have a family situation they are bringing guests into, and homeowner hosts.
IT would be interesting to present numerous guest photos and have hosts honestly state their responses to each, eg what their emotional responses were, any concerns raised, any insights they felt they had into the guest's character based on the photok, etc.
Last Edit: May 8, 2016 at 10:28am by Deborah
andrewMay 8, 2016 at 11:31am
We seem to be operating on different definitions of "institution" here, as the word refers not just to entities with a tangible structure but also to established social practices - like "religion" or "marriage." Generally when people in the media talk about Airbnb, they're using the tangible thing (a web service operated by a corporation) interchangeably with the social practice (which might better be termed "home sharing" or some such thing, as Airbnb is not the only player in the game). It's standard practice in sociology to measure trends in social institutions by sampling individual outcomes. It would be foolish to deny that race or any other bias trigger has an impact on outcomes in this sphere (I mean, how could it not?), but whether anything can or should be done about it is an altogether different matter.
I have no prescription for this, other than that I would urge hosts to take every measure available (updated calendars, well-considered max/min stay, accurate and thorough listings) to minimize the number of times they have to do decline a Request, and to give greater weight to the guest's communication than to the other visible details.
carolynMay 8, 2016 at 11:58am
Oh, it is so funny! I looked at this photo and thought "He's so cute! He looks friendly!"
I didn't even realize this was an example of a "problem" photo.
DeborahMay 8, 2016 at 5:35pm
Carolyn -- it just goes to show hosts have different responses. Elsewhere this was posted, one thought he looked like trouble, another thought he looked attractive and one other said they thought he looked arrogant. Some female hosts decline all single male guests! I thought, well-- what if he looks attractive, but is requesting to stay with a straight male guest -- that may present yet another set of problems --- do men get threatened by others who they perceive as wanting to out-dude them?
My own response to Greg is that I would probably (but not certainly) decline him for two reasons (1) in his photo he looks confrontational/arrogant, (2) I would have to ask him questions about his purpose of stay, and a few others, but he would probably not be the personality type I generally seek for a quiet, retreat-like setting and into which I obtain many students/researchers/introverts, and some interested in workshops, or meditation/spirituality.
Last Edit: May 23, 2016 at 6:56am by Deborah
becksMay 8, 2016 at 5:53pm
May 7, 2016 at 4:50pm Deborah said:
Becks, you mean where I said this?
Deborah May 7, 2016 at 12:36pm Deborah said:
Also, I think our culture is too much in the habit of dismissing people completely as "racists" when in fact they may have simply made one or more unfair/discriminatory decisions based on race in one instance, whereas this may not be their general pattern.
Yes, I meant something like educated, Western, liberal US culture, perhaps First World Culture -- the "culture" one sees represented in articles in the mainstream media, predominant at major universities, an urban and educated culture, the culture issuing out of civil rights work, and out of the multicultural-diversity work and theories in academia, including Identity POlitics theory, the culture in government leadership, and the "values" of the more Democratic and liberal of my nation at least. As well as the culture that I find myself immersed in.
I dont' think that as hosts it is easy to escape the difficulty we are faced with, that we have to make decisions about who to accept, based on really very little information. ANd add to that, humans tend to be creatures of habit and who look for patterns. "I had a bad experience the last 3 times I _______ so I won't _____ any more." Fill in the blanks. It isn't skillful to make arrogant assumptions, but in fact that is what I am arguing that those who accused hosts and/or Airbnb of racism were doing in these various news stories, and the Harvard study. Making arrogant assumptions.
Deborah May 8, 2016 at 5:58pm
I agree Andrew, that in the end, whether Airbnb renting contains institutional racism or individual cases of racism, and regardless to what extent this occurs ( I dont'see such things occuring on AIrbnb any MORE than we see these problems in society in general) I dont' think there is a convenient way to "solve" this. (I have some ideas for things that could help, though).
I tend to resent it when folks take a widespread social issue such as racism, sexism, heterosexism, or other phenomena such as housing crisis issues, and find ways to "scapegoat" Airbnb over that -- as if there were more of these problems associated with Airbnb than elsewhere in the whole society. Airbnb is a convenient target to beat up on for many people -- but Airbnb shouldn't have to apologize for issues that are pervasive in society and have existed long before it arose. It's polite of Airbnb leaders to respond to complaints with regard to these racism issues that have been raised, and express concern to try to make the system fair and open to all, but mostly the corporation itself cannot do that, since the business is that of the millions of hosts.
I do actually think there are some things Airbnb the company could do to help with race issues -- one would be, to continue to have advertisements/videos that show for instance a black guest staying at a white person's/family's home, and vice versa -- white guest in black family -- as well as Indian guest in black family, black guest in Asian family -- and so on. Airbnb is in the business of "depicting" hospitality -- through imagery, stories, videos -- and so they can try to do that in ways that can influence and advance racial harmony. Another way to work on this issue would be to encourage discussion on these topics among hosts. Maybe this can be done vis a vis discussions of "cultures". Or in the "Experiences" offerings that are to come later this year, maybe there will be more opportunity to go in this direction. Then too, Airbnb can do more to promote discussion/education among hosts about how they select guests, what they look for in accepting guests, which would help hosts not have to decline unskillfully, eg declining based on broad categories like age, race, sexual orientation. THe host community does this education but Airbnb could support this effort with workshops, events.
It might be pretty daring, perhaps over-bold or risky, but to have a "workshop" where various hosts were talking about how they chose guests, and showed sample fictitious material from fictitious guests -- including photo, message, verifications,profile statement , etc -- this could include examples of people from different races, and could serve as a demonstration that more goes into many decisions than mere race. HOsts need to understand the nuance and subtlety with which screening for guests can be conducted -- though not all hosts use a nuanced approach.
Last Edit: May 8, 2016 at 6:02pm by Deborah
becksMay 8, 2016 at 6:18pm
I tried to quote your post, Deborah, but couldn't seem to manage it sorry.
Yes, that was it. But there are many nuances within "educated, western, liberal culture". The US has a very different culture to the multi-culturalism in the UK, to my mind. I am often stunned by the focus on race that comes from the US, for example, and the hostility towards mixed-race partnerships. Nearer to home, I sometimes have difficulty with attitudes from my neighbouring country England. You might laugh but it's real. I was nearly arrested once for challenging a man who insulted my young son for having red hair and being Scottish. Yes, I probably challenged him a bit too strongly.... but it was a culmination of years of snide derogatory remarks, plus of course anyone who insults my child does so at their peril. The reality is that some cultures are deemed more worthy than others by the "mainstream". It causes a lot of problems. As an Airbnb host, and in my life generally, I tend to search for the good and don't really think too much about how this person could potentially be bad. I fundamentally disagree with you, by the way, about the photo of the guy who "tricked" the host. He looks like a nice guy to me. Very nice, actually
I'd host him and wish I was 20 years younger! You've commented on people's photos before now, saying that they look 'dodgey' or whatever. Surely, as a psychologist, you must know that such things are intrinsically subjective? Your dodgey is my nice. Your nice is my nightmare. After hundreds of guests I've concluded that profile photos mean absolutely nothing at all. Absolutely NOTHING. In my experience there is no correlation between a nice smiley face and a good guest, none at all.
Last Edit: May 8, 2016 at 6:20pm by becks
DeborahMay 8, 2016 at 6:32pm
I know becks that you and I disagree on photos -- I believe I recall you saying in posts on other threads, that you didn't think it was quite right to make any judgements based on photos of guests at all. That is a valid perspective that some hosts will have. I'll admit that one can be misled by photos -- one sees something there that turns out not to be there in the real person. PHotos can make a person look better than they really are, or perhaps worse. Yes, this is not an exact science. But then the whole screening process is difficult, and we have to make a decision about a person based on what amounts to very little information. So we can only do our best, and yes it is subjective. THe whole screening process is probably rather subjective for many.
I use photos to provide me some information --- and I do believe they can provide important information --- but I do not rely completely on them -- though as I indicated there are some guests I have declined based heavily (though not entirely) on the photo. BUt that actually is not so common. I think that if people get a GOOD photo of themselves, it really CAN reveal things about their soul. But they have to really pick a GOOD photo of themselves, and getting a truly good, representative one is not easy to do. People generally do not know how to take photos of themselves that will show them well, partly because they dont' know what they are looking for. People dont' necessarily have a sense of how soul and personality can be conveyed effectively in imagery.
andrewMay 8, 2016 at 6:48pm
"I posted this elsewhere and one host thought he looked like trouble, another female host thought he looked "hunky" and said she would definitely accept him, someone else said they thought he looked arrogant.
This is also an illustration of the subtle ways that racism can influence people's judgments even when they don't believe themselves to be biased. The idea that black men are "trouble" or "arrogant" are commonly held stereotypes that people around us often default to no matter how we behave or present ourselves. This is often a matter of life and death; if the person making a split-second decision about whether you are "trouble" is holding a gun, for example, you know what happens next."
I'd like to think that seasoned hospitality professionals are better than the average joe at looking past superficial biases and reaching out to the guest's humanity. That's why I find it deeply disturbing that even a highly experienced host would decline this man based on a photo of his face, or demand more information from him than any other guest. But I don't find it surprising, as it is the usual result when I request rooms on Airbnb as well. And it's not the case for my husband, who is white and most definitely trouble.
DeborahMay 8, 2016 at 6:49pm
I wonder if the greater focus on race in the US has to do with the US being less homogeneous than other cultures? And at times this can be a threat to people, particularly if they might live in an area that used to be more homogeneous, but is changing, and they fear the loss of a familiar culture. I wonder for instance how this will play out in European countries, especially Germany, which have recently accepted so many immigrants of non-European ethnicities.
As well, there are unique issues regarding the relationships of black Americans to white or non-black Americans, due to elements that are unique to US history and the history of blacks in slavery in the US, civil rights struggles in the US. If black individuals had come into America freely as immigrants and not as slaves, we would not have the very complex and difficult issues we have now. Many people look at almost everything that has to do with black-white relations in the context of slavery. WHat can make progress in racial harmony particularly fraught with difficulty in my view, is that it can feel like many folks (eg particularly those in academia, who get paid to study theories and write papers on these issues) are not willing to look at what can actually be done at the present time, but are focused on the past, and the wrongs there, and in explaining their theories of how colonialism, imperialism and slavery have led to the present time sociopolitical-racial landscape. It can feel to me like some who take this perspective are not willing to engage in dialogue with others who have not yet accepted their whole worldview of how things came to be where they are now, and who is to blame, including owning their "white privilege." I often feel like we are collectively bound up so tightly in theories that it can be difficult to just focus on practical matters. I think a practical focus, looking at what can actually be DONE to help in various situations, is going to be much more productive than going through hours, weeks and years of discussion of how things got to be the way they are now and who is to blame for it.
So the approach I like to take is more like "let's set aside the need to find blame, and let's create room for everyone to tell their story and be heard, and then let's see if we can find practical solutions."
becksMay 8, 2016 at 6:52pm
May 8, 2016 at 6:32pm Deborah said:
"I know becks that you and I disagree on photos -- I believe I recall you saying in posts on other threads, that you didn't think it was quite right to make any judgements based on photos of guests at all. That is a valid perspective that some hosts will have. I'll admit that one can be misled by photos -- one sees something there that turns out not to be there in the real person. PHotos can make a person look better than they really are, or perhaps worse. Yes, this is not an exact science. But then the whole screening process is difficult, and we have to make a decision about a person based on what amounts to very little information. So we can only do our best, and yes it is subjective. THe whole screening process is probably rather subjective for many.
I use photos to provide me some information --- and I do believe they can provide important information --- but I do not rely completely on them -- though as I indicated there are some guests I have declined based heavily (though not entirely) on the photo. BUt that actually is not so common. I think that if people get a GOOD photo of themselves, it really CAN reveal things about their soul. But they have to really pick a GOOD photo of themselves, and getting a truly good, representative one is not easy to do. People generally do not know how to take photos of themselves that will show them well, partly because they dont' know what they are looking for. People dont' necessarily have a sense of how soul and personality can be conveyed effectively in imagery."
Yes, that all very nice but a) You can't see anybody's 'soul' in a photo. Fact. Charles Manson was very photogenic, for example. And b) People pick photos that represent what they like about themselves and that's usually an old photo or one where they were happy (and they're not anymore) or one that caught them in a flattering light. I can count on one hand the times where the photo clearly matched the face that showed up at my door. Ergo, it's meaningless to me. It does show a willingness to comply with transparency, I agree. Other than that, I don't care. Their communication is all that matters to me. I don't mind if they don't speak English, as long as they make an effort to communicate with me, it's good. Don't care what they look like.
Deborah
May 8, 2016 at 7:01pm
May 8, 2016 at 6:48pm andrew said:
"I'd like to think that seasoned hospitality professionals are better than the average joe at looking past superficial biases and reaching out to the guest's humanity. That's why I find it deeply disturbing that even a highly experienced host would decline this man based on a photo of his face, or demand more information from him than any other guest. But I don't find it surprising, as it is the usual result when I request rooms on Airbnb as well. And it's not the case for my husband, who is white and most definitely trouble."
It may indeed be a stereotype that black men are "trouble" or "arrogant" --- but does this mean that no black men are arrogant? I have had several black male guests at my home (I've accepted all the black guests who requested to stay except one woman, who presented in such a confused way, with conflicting information,that I wasn't sure she was telling the truth) and I didnt' appraise any of their photos as someone who looked arrogant. BUt this man does "look" that way to me. (eg that is an intuitive hit I get -- a subjective resonse which could be wildly wrong) I can see that it might be disturbing to someone who was used to experiencing negative effects of a stereotype, to hear something that sounds like a stereotype...but in this case that is my honest reaction, made from whatever elements it is made up of. I have no doubt that it is difficult to be perceived in a negative light or as a dangerous individual -- and how upsetting this could be and stressful, to happen on a regular basis. Actually I can only imagine since it is not in my experience.
I wouldn't demand more info from this guest than any other guest -- what I meant was that if Greg only wrote me a short message which didn't contain much information , eg "Hi, Wanna stay there, thanks"(which is what some guests write!) I would ask more. I do actually demand a lot of info from some guests -- not just a black male, (actually I don't think I asked many questions of the black males who stayed with me , but some young white women concerned me because I worried they would socialize too much in my house) but anytime I get an intuitive hit that I need more info. Andrew, do you feel you have been declined solely on the basis of race? I will not doubt that this can indeed happen, and that it can happen to you or any black person. I get angry about specific people being accused of racism when there is no clear evidence of that but I will certainly agree that I am sure many black individuals male and female are declined based only on race, and I feel sad about that. It must make people feel both hurt and angry...and perhaps bitter.
May 8, 2016 at 7:03pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by becks on May 8, 2016 at 7:03pm
Deborah Avatar
May 8, 2016 at 5:35pm Deborah said:
Carolyn -- it just goes to show hosts have different responses. I posted this elsewhere and one host thought he looked like trouble, another female host thought he looked "hunky" and said she would definitely accept him, someone else said they thought he looked arrogant. Some female hosts decline all single male guests! I thought, well-- what if he looks "hunky" but is requesting to stay with a straight male guest -- that may present yet another set of problems --- do men get threatened by others who they perceive as wanting to out-dude them?
My own response to Greg is that I would decline him for two reasons (1) in his photo he looks confrontational/arrogant, (2) I would have to ask him questions about his purpose of stay, and a few others, but he would probably not be the personality type I generally seek for a quiet, retreat-like setting and into which I obtain many students/researchers/introverts, and some interested in workshops, or meditation/spirituality.
oh ffs Deborah, he looks arrogant? WTH? Deal with your prejudice, please, and don't post it as Airbnb Host mantra. Sure, he might not fit into your specialised space but you're really going to judge him on his photo?? Who the hell do you think you are to judge this guy as looking 'arrogant'? He is cute and friendly. Your opinion on him is just that - your own opinion.
DeborahMay 8, 2016 at 7:05pm
becks -- - but recall, you also said that you liked that one forum style that was completely absent of imagery, had no images at all, only words -- I thought it was ghastly, you said it was perfect and that you didn't like the style of this forum that you thought had too much distracting imagery. I think you are not an image-based person, while I am. I do see soul in photos. Not every photo --- but I can see it. IF we can see soul in people's faces when we meet them, why not in someone's photo?
By the way I dont' think Greg looks "Dangerous" or like "trouble" -- in fact in his eyes, he looks sincere and earnest ---- but he is a little too much in my face for my comfort. Maybe if he used a photo that had him standing further from the camera I might feel quite differently....
Last Edit: May 8, 2016 at 10:30pm by Deborah
DeborahMay 8, 2016 at 7:10pm
Yes I think he looks arrogant -- a bit too much in my face -- not a prejudice (though I like everyone no doubt carry some "prejudices" and we all have to struggle with that!) , that is my gut response. And a gut response or intuitive hit is not something I or anyone else has to apologize for. It's basically just being honest. No, I'm not "judging" him altogether on his photo, I'm not saying I know everything about him. Absolutely not. BE clear -- I am not saying he "is" arrogant as though I were capable of announcing that from the heavens. For gosh sakes --- I'm saying that is the hit I get. Really folks need to understand when we decide whether or not to accept a guest, and get a "hit" on a photo, that is not a "judgement" of that person, it's just a reaction, but one that we decide (and the decision might be quite spontaneous and arbitrary) to use as information.
I would make a decision based on whether to accept him, based in part on his photo. ANd I might have it all wrong, as I say, that is part of the deal -- this is not a science. IT is definitely subjective and intuitive, not scientific. I have declined others I thought looked arrogant -- though this is not common, it sometimes happens.
ANd I might find out Greg was a perfectly decent likeable person. But since I have to hit either the accept or decline key, I can't wait til I meet him and read the whole novel of his life, so I have to use an imperfect system to decide.
Last Edit: May 8, 2016 at 7:50pm by Deborah
becksMay 8, 2016 at 7:16pm
Ok Deborah, how about this lovely lady? omg, it's not exactly easy to insert an image on here is it..... give me a minute
becksMay 8, 2016 at 7:22pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by becks on May 8, 2016 at 7:22pm
Ok I can't work out how to insert a bloody image. I have to insert the whole address?? What?? AAAAHHH! It's like Noah's forum before the flood.
DeborahMay 8, 2016 at 7:27pm
Eagerly awaiting your lovely lady -- just hoping though that I am not being set up and someone standing by to slap me for my honesty -- if you don't find a way to do it maybe you have a link to where she is online.
To insert a photo, you can either save it on your computer, and then add it here as an "attachment" or you can post the URL Of the photo...generally if you get an address that starts "Http://" and then ends with ".jpg", you can then stick this at the front of the address [ and then img src and then =" and this at the end " and then ] and it will show the photo.,
Last Edit: May 8, 2016 at 7:28pm by Deborah
BecksMay 8, 2016 at 7:30pm
Anyways, photo is of a lovely smiley, kind-looking lady with her head on one side, as if saying 'oh I'm so nice, me'. She's white and around 30. Her messages are very straightforward and she's clearly read the listing. Yeah, you guessed it, she turns out to be an utter bitch. Anyways, this conversation is kind of circular now. You wouldn't accept Greg for your own reasons. I would. You're not racist but many many hosts are. Racism is rampant. Please don't deny it or try to excuse it. It's fine to twiddle with the minutiae of intellectual debate but meantime real people live with this real shit.
becksMay 8, 2016 at 7:32pm
I have a horrible feeling that I've just posted a load of empty replies. If so, apologies. Also, Deborah, I still love you! You make me mad, though.
andrewMay 8, 2016 at 7:33pm
When I'm declined with no reason given, and the dates remain available on the listing's calendar, I can't say with any certainty that it was solely on the basis of race. Though this is very likely to be the case a significant percentage of the time. What I can say with certainty that it was NOT on the basis of was lack of reviews, a negative review, insufficient verifications, incomplete profile, poor communication skills, failure to describe the purpose of my visit, failure to read or properly understand the listing, or any of the other things that would make a host logically wary of a prospective guest. I'm sure there are times when the host is simply disorganized with their listing, and times when perhaps a different bias is involved. But I don't find it coincidental that every person of color I've talked to about this has had similar experiences as guests and very few of the white people have.
And yes, I have used my husband's test profile (no reviews) to investigate a couple of hosts whose declines I found suspicious. On 2 of 3 occasions it was pre-approved. I did not feel inclined to report any of this to Airbnb or to the media, as I don't believe a host who doesn't want me in their home should have to take me. But it did strike me that if a black user with my track record gets declined more than half the time they request a listing, it must be quite a lot harder for a newer member to #airbnbwhileblack.
(On the flip side, my ability to get guests has never seemed to suffer, though I've never experimented to see how many requests I'd get without a photo of myself. This stuff tends to just flow one direction).
DeborahMay 8, 2016 at 7:43pm CC likes this
ANdrew, I am very sorry to hear that someone as incredibly bright, as marvelously articulate, as polite and respectful and thoughtful as you may experience getting declined just based on your race. I would expect this to happen to some extent, and it's true that I may not appreciate the extent of it, if it isn't my experience. I also live in a very progressive/liberal area, where racism is so heavily and widely criticized that one just doesn't see it as much.
I still think that it is not responsible to accuse any one person/host of racism when you don't know what was involved, but I think your experience and that of some others discussing this, does show, and I think it certainly is fair to say, that black individuals/guests may experience some degree of racism in seeking Airbnb reservations -- though to what extent that is, and where, is hard to say. HOwever, I think it's important to view this phenomenon as in the context of society at large, rather than anything particular or institutional unique to Airbnb. If there is racism, sexism, heterosexism in society in general, why would we NOT see these in any particular place, such as on Airbnb? But to speak specifically of racism on Airbnb, I expect someone to show that there is something MORE happening on Airbnb than is happening in like situations everywhere in society or the world -- and there is no evidence of that.
However, if an individual is experiencing that they "cannot book an AIrbnb for the life of them", as some black individuals are reporting, this doesn't really make sense either with respect to the Harvard Study (flawed as it was), or if we assume that there is "some" racism simply everywhere in society. The Harvard study only found a 16% difference in success obtaining bookings between those with "black sounding names" and "white sounding names" --- not a 100% difference. So when someone "can't book an Airbnb for the life of them" I think they need to start looking harder at how they present themselves, at what kind of listings they are applying to stay and if they are a match for that host/listing, etc.
ANd really, even with the Harvard study, since it was flawed and determined results based only on the use of "black sounding" guest names that could be linked with 2 other factors besides race (perceived socioeconomic status and perceived militancy/political stance regarding one's racial identity) , we still dont' have much evidence that clearly points to race-based decision making on Airbnb.
Ironically, the hosts who were most racially discriminatory in their acceptance practices in the Harvard Study, were the black male hosts, who preferred male guests with "white sounding names" 24% more often than they accepted male guests with "black sounding names."
Last Edit: May 10, 2016 at 7:48am by Deborah
DeborahMay 8, 2016 at 7:44pm
May 8, 2016 at 7:32pm becks said:
I have a horrible feeling that I've just posted a load of empty replies. If so, apologies. Also, Deborah, I still love you! You make me mad, though.
I love you too becks -- it's okay, we can make each other mad. We'll cope with it.
MiluMay 9, 2016 at 5:18am
I don't have any relevant experience or insight to share here except that last night I had a call from a guest that had just booked (an American woman from Indiana) and she said that she wanted to talk to me directly after booking because she was so worried that she'd booked with a foreigner. I told her that I am a foreigner, I'm a Canadian living in the US. She said "yeah, but you sound American". If there wasn't such harsh penalties for canceling, I would have canceled her booking just for that comment.
DeborahMay 9, 2016 at 7:44am
Milu --- I would have been curious what were the woman's concerns about booking with a foreigner?!? DId she worry that she might not be able to easily communicate with the host? THat there would be a language barrier (but it should be clear in reading your listing that you have a solid command of English!). I dont' think I would have been angry as much as confused.
DeborahMay 9, 2016 at 6:15pm
I've had a couple potential renters who verbally articulated some "issues" with others in certain groups. Both of these were non-Airbnb people, and this was before Airbnb existed.
One was an Indian man who dressed like a professional businessman -- I seem to recall he was about 40 or 45 years old, dressed in a suit and tie -- his appearance and nature were something like an office drone, a person who has been deadened by years of repetitive experience in a dead end job. (His flat demeanor and drooping appearance alone made me realize he wasn't the kind of person I wanted to rent to....realized I should have done a bit more screening before inviting him over...) He expressed concern that I might have black people in my house ---I got the sense he wouldn't have wanted to live in the same house as a black person. At the same time as he said this, he expressed this concern apologetically, saying he thought it might be "illegal" for him to say such a thing. I recall feeling very awkward. I recall trying to make the visit with him as short as possible and whisked him out, hoping he would not be calling or emailing me back since I didn't want to spend any more time with him.
ANother man who was interested in renting a room from me, was a young man, in his early 30's or so, tall and blond, who came to my home, and met me and he seemed cheerful and friendly and I toured him about my house. As he was departing, when I asked about what had brought him to my area, he told me that he worked with a church group. He began talking about how he had come here from some other state, to help convert gay people to what Jesus wanted for them, and how his church was starting a project to work with gay people. I suddenly felt extremely uncomfortable and creeped out, as I realized that this man who had just been all over my house, had this twisted view on gay people, that we were sinners who needed Jesus. He actually had the nerve to stand on my doorstep and start telling me what he thought Jesus wanted for me -- eg not to be who I am. I felt like I needed to take several baths and douse my whole premises with a good strong sage cleansing to get that icky energy out of my house.
These were quite rare experiences -- if others who have interviewed or rented at my house have had similar views, they have kept them to themselves as I have not heard other such comments expressed.
Last Edit: May 9, 2016 at 6:41pm by Deborah
MiluMay 10, 2016 at 9:20am
Deborah Avatar
May 9, 2016 at 7:44am Deborah said:
Milu --- I would have been curious what were the woman's concerns about booking with a foreigner?!? DId she worry that she might not be able to easily communicate with the host? THat there would be a language barrier (but it should be clear in reading your listing that you have a solid command of English!). I dont' think I would have been angry as much as confused.
The way that she said it gave me the distinct impression that it was a race issue and not a language issue. She said it in a very scornful way. I could be wrong, but that was the feeling I had during our conversation.
I see what you mean then Milu. I also would find myself feeling quite short with someone who expressed scorn about a huge (even: mega-huge!) group of people such as "foreigners"!! I think it's less likely I would see that in my area, because this major university town is cosmopolitan and absolutely chock-full of "foreigners" -- but if I did hear such a thing from a guest, I think my impulse would have been, to say something to the effect that I have a LOT of foreigners in my house! VERY MANY FOREIGNERS!!!! (ANd hopefully scare her away....)
helgaparisMay 11, 2016 at 6:53pm
I'm falling into this thread late (besides its 3 am)
I had wondered about the question at which point the market position of airbnb will be so dominant that consumer protection and anti discrimatory regulations will be expected to apply.
There are a lot of crazily biased people hosting now and some have very short fuses too and get insulting quickly. Sometimes I'm appalled by what I read on the forums.
There are racial biases in renting - we saw that sometimes before airbnb, when we met our guests in Paris to sign a contract dor the South. Sometimes our place seemed a bit above budget for our guests but instead of a last minute negotiation, we got grateful declarations how flad they were that we accepted them. Huh? We thought we were lucky to have them for 2 or 3 weeks, not a lot of short stays. We understood after a while: they were black or Arabs and had not expected a joyful and easy acceptance. We felt sad, because it spoke of a lot of discrimination to change expectations so profoundly.
The photo of the black guy gave me pause. The reason is the blue shade around the face, on chin and front. It makes it look like a helmet and the eyes look like highlighted too, by the light, but teminds of eyeshade.
I would ask him a question if there is no text in the request.
I use photos to reassure me and not ask ask questions. If the photo is not reassuring, I ask. The only one, where I saw the picture and thaught "Oh, my, looks like a serial killer!" Had instabooked. He was the guy locked in the bathroom, came twice, two other bookings upcoming.
My bed is mostly on IB but I rarely get black people for that. Maybe they don't want yo stay with elder white females either ;-)
Doing 3 different inquiries for the same dates seems pretty conclusive to me, at least to get a statistical confirmation, if you send it go different hosts. Of course, if hd uses a non-smiling picture for the teal name, he needs to use non smiling fake ones too. So maybe the method was not up to scientific standard. A picture where he looks straight and not fown his nose would be more neutral too.
I don't believe in energies. That seems like a way to externalise a prejudice, doesn't it? Not concerning a group, but concerning a person or better the conceived image of the person.
It's just too much work for me. I take most of them, let them do what they like as long as it does not result in damage and does not bother me too much and if it would do damage, I bark them into compliance.
Discrimination seems just so unnecessarily complicated. You have to uphold a complicated image of a world with many categories, categorize people and stuff them into those tiny boxes in your mind. If they don't fit, you loose business or friends or have to find another plumber when it's already hard to find one at all. And all the while adapt this complex building in your mind to the contradictions of the real world.
It is really strange: most people don't like ranging. They leave messes in houses, don't file documents in office and their computers are utter chaos. But for their perception of the world, they need complex structures to classify every living thing into very specific categories.
helgaparisMay 11, 2016 at 6:57pm
Sorry for the typo - I don't see well on the phone in bed ;-)
DeborahMay 14, 2016 at 9:58pm
Many times in the host community, hosts have written about using one's "gut sense" to make a decision about a guest. What is that "gut sense"? It is an energy, or better, an intuition. WHat I am advocating is nothing more nor less than using one's intuition to help make decisions about guests -- just like all these other hosts who advocate that. Intuition is often considered "women's way of knowing", and because it is women's way, and not men's, it often gets a bad rap in our society -- women who rely on intuition are accused of being "irrational". Yet intuition is a valid way of obtaining information --- albeit not as available for those who are less intuitive. Sensing energies is not "prejudice", it's intuition, or using one's "gut sense." The information one obtains through intuition is not exact as with factual data one gets from science, so it has to be reviewed with the mind and intellect, and considered on balance with everything else.
Also I think that whether one consciously believes in energies or not, or believes that photos have information or not, people do take in information from photos. For instance, how likely are you to accept the following people as guests:
(images of criminals)
I think even the most open-minded host most committed to generous hospitality and open doors to everyone, may feel at least " a little nervous" about these prospective guests. Why? They are getting info from these photos...perhaps they dont' know at a logical/rational level what that information is, but they "sense" the information as energy. THe host viewing these photos may "know" at some level that these guests will not be the "standard Airbnb guest."
These are extreme examples (these individuals are actually all criminals -- the photos are mug shosts) , quite different in that respect from the much more subtle things we may detect in "ordinary" photos, but I hope they make the point that images contain information. Of course it's possible that you can't REALLY tell these people are criminals or "unlikeable" people from these photos, and that they just had a bad day and the photo wasn't so flattering. But sometimes you can tell....it's not that the photo was just not done so well. There really is something there.
ANd there is something in these photos too, which give a very different energy:
(image of child)
So are photos useless, dont' provide any information? In most cases photos are not as "loud" as these extreme examples are in terms of the "energy" they project -- but I think they make the point that they have information. Information which can be considered on balance with all other information one has, when making a decision. And faced with a decision that seems hard to make, some people with my orientation will use divination to assist, and draw up an astrology chart or read the cards or what have you. It is not frequently that I use divination to make decisions about prospective renters, but I definitely have done this at times.
One of my concerns about the recent allegations of racism in Airbnb renting, is that since there can be so much political pressure to prevent racism where it is alleged to exist , (and Airbnb is definitely a scapegoat for many social ills these days) -- I worry that hosts could see a new level of corporate intrusiveness in their decision making processes about who stays at their home. Airbnb has responded to recent allegations of racism in the system by stating that they plan to make use of "technology" to deal with this. I worry -- what Big Brother tactics are next?
Lately hosts have been aghast to find out that Airbnb is actually overriding hosts' own minimum stay settings, and blocking hosts from getting 1-2 night bookings more than a certain amount of time in advance. Airbnb is pushing INstant Book on hosts, ever more aggressively. Hosts are required to accept or decline a guest within 24 hrs, and now if they dont' do so, Airbnb blocks the corresponding dates on their calendars. Airbnb has threatened to remove listings of hosts who have gotten too many sub 5-star ratings. Given this level of Airbnb involvement in hosts' listings, I don't think it is far fetched to worry that at some point, hosts will feel that Airbnb has basically appropriated their homes for its own use.
If Airbnb ever begins to "police" hosts' decision making process about accepting guests, I suggest that more hosts move to making decisions based on divination, as this would absolve them of the need to "explain" how they made a decision.
Last Edit: May 15, 2016 at 4:19pm by Deborah
becksMay 15, 2016 at 2:31pm
I want to reply to this with some images but can't seem to manage it. I can only insert as attachments? And after two photos I'm at my limit? Deborah, how did you insert so many images in your post? This has destroyed the joke in advance but I'm frustrated by not being able to do it...
DeborahMay 15, 2016 at 2:43pm
Becks, you can either add a photo as an attachment (if you have it on your computer) or follow the instructions here (on this thread) to post a photo in your post:
globalhosting.freeforums.net/thread/77/set-account-post-photos-forum
Basically, you can grab a photo from anywhere on the internet, and post it here using the image URL. Let me create an example of how to do that in more detail and I'll post it here in a minute....
DeborahMay 15, 2016 at 2:53pm
So, to post a photo in a reply --
If you are getting the photo from somewhere online, just to to the photo where you find it, put your mouse cursor on the photo, and right click on the photo. THis will cause a pop up box to come up which gives you options as shown here: (I am aiming to copy the Tarot card image that has the lady with the three eyes)
Next, RIGHT click or LEFT click on the line that says "copy image address".
Then you have copied that image address.
Next, paste that image address into your post. To do that, set the mouse cursor in the post and right click again, and you will get an option to paste the address there.
Now once the image address is there, you have to add certain things in front of and behind the image URL for it to show up in the post. Basically you need to add to the front of the image address a [ and then img src=" And at the end of the URL add "]Do that as here:
and then post the post and the image shows up in it, like this:
If you do it this way, there is no limit to how many photos you can post in any one post. It is much better to post them like this than as attachments, since this forum has a limited amount of space available for actual attachments. But when you post a photo not as an attachment but through the URL, it doesn't need to be saved in the memory on this forum, as it just finds the photo in its location elsewhere on the internet.
Last Edit: May 15, 2016 at 3:12pm by Deborah
becksMay 15, 2016 at 3:03pm
OK, I can see how to insert a link to the image, just that some of the images i wanted to insert are massive! I wanted to save space and be neat. Ah well... start again...
DeborahMay 15, 2016 at 3:11pm
If you have large images you can reduce them in size using
www.tinypic.com --- you can upload images there and resize them. You have to down load images first from the web, putting them on your computer, and then you can put them in tinypic from your computer. So it is an extra step involved. But you can use tinypic for free.
becksMay 15, 2016 at 3:32pm
Can you insert Dropbox links? Er no, apparently not!
Last Edit: May 15, 2016 at 3:35pm by becks
DeborahMay 15, 2016 at 4:27pm
I tried posting a link from dropbox and it doesn't work well. I suggest using one of two methods to post photos (either from your computer, or from an online location) , both of which are explained in my thread on how to post photos on this forum, here:
globalhosting.freeforums.net/thread/77/set-account-post-photos-forum
ALternatively, if you have trouble doing that, you can take a screenshot of the photo and add the screenshot as an attachment to your post.
DeborahMay 15, 2016 at 4:30pm
Or if you really can't figure a way to post a photo, send the photo to me in an email and I can post it for you!
becksMay 15, 2016 at 5:21pm
It's ok Deborah. I'm really not totally technically incompetent, honest. I just spent a bit of (fun) time choosing images and downloading them, imagining it would then be straightforward to upload directly. But I get that there's limited space!
DeborahMay 15, 2016 at 6:03pm
Well you can post them as attachments if you find it hard to do that another way...no prohibition on attachments...but if we get a lot of attachments I would have to start "pruning" them (probably remove some from older posts first) or then new ones wouldn't fit. But we aren't near that point yet - we still have a lot of room!
Last Edit: May 15, 2016 at 6:03pm by Deborah
helgaparisMay 16, 2016 at 2:39pm
I would probably have taken the tatooed guy - tell me what kind of criminal he is. Maybe after a search for the symbolic of the tatoos.
The fat guy looks like an actor on in Hawai 50 - could not take him, my furniture would break down.
No way the babies, even cute, enter here;-)
I wasn't able to see what kind of criminal the tatooed guy is -- the photo just came from a website that has some criminal mug shots on it, but no explanation of each individual.
You're quite brave, Helga!! But of course the babies dont' come free and in many cases no matter how cute they don't come at all.
DeborahMay 19, 2016 at 8:50am
Update: (and posted on Anecdotes:
www.airbnb.com/groups/content/content-222059 )
now Greg Selden is filing a Class Action lawsuit against Airbnb based on his 3 photo experiment:
money.cnn.com/2016/05/18/technology/airbnb-lawsuit-discrimination/
skift.com/2016/05/18/airbnb-sued-for-allowing-racial-discrimination-by-hosts/
mashable.com/2016/05/19/airbnb-lawsuit-racism-discrimination/#.PBs7M0l6Gqz
A copy of the lawsuit:
skift.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/airbnb_suit.pdf
"A new lawsuit accuses Airbnb of discriminatory housing practices.
Gregory Selden, a 25-year-old African American, filed a complaint on Tuesday May 17th against Airbnb in Washington, D.C.
He claims that an Airbnb host denied him accommodations when he requested a booking under his personal profile, which included a photo, but accepted the booking when he applied using two fake profiles of white males.
Selden went to Airbnb with the issue, but he claims the company ignored him.
When Selden questioned the host, he told a local NBC station that he received this response from the host: "It's a disappointment people like you always victimize yourselves solely on the basis of skin color."
The suit accuses Airbnb of denying Selden "full and equal enjoyment" of lodging and services because of his race.
"Under the Civil Rights laws, Airbnb qualifies as public accommodation. Airbnb serves essentially the same function as a hotel," attorney Ike Emejuru told CNNMoney. "We are confident that there are numerous persons out there who will potentially join the class."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am very curious to see how this will all fall out. I had earlier (years ago) predicted that the vulnerability faced by those advertising housing on Craigslist, regarding the potential to be accused of "discrimination" by someone who was denied housing, could emerge within Airbnb advertising as well. Which was why I found it surprising that so many hosts felt free to state things like "no children" in their ads, when this could expose them to accusations of illegal discrimination under the Federal Housing Act. Many times I warned hosts about putting "no children" in their listing, but for some reason hosts did not seem concerned about this issue.
I hope that the fact that this lawsuit is now being filed, will make it clear to hosts first that they DO need to be just as cautious and careful about how they handle requests from prospective guests, as they would with a Craiglist ad. And secondly I hope that this does make it clear that anyone can file suit or file a complaint alleging discrimination at any time, really on any basis. They dont' even really need to do a 3 photo experiment like Greg did. It would probably be sufficient simply to be declined by one host, without any explanation being given for the decline, to file suit alleging discrimination. WHich is why I find myself very curious where this will go...will we see a trend, of people leaping onto the discrimination-suit bandwagon and suing Airbnb when they are declined?
My own experience with the legal system has clarified that lawsuits can be filed really with the very thinnest of fragments of a possible allegation. And in many cases, as I found as well, the willingness of attorneys to take a case on contingency, is based not upon the strength of the evidence, but upon the political climate in which the case finds its context. The more the politics of a region/era support one's cause, the less "evidence" one may need, to win the support of an attorney for pushing the case through.
Last Edit: May 19, 2016 at 12:35pm by Deborah
DeborahMay 19, 2016 at 9:41am
ANother thought on this issue -- which will no doubt raise a great many thoughts among many hosts, particularly with lawsuit in place --- is that all along I have wondered about how Airbnb will be viewed legally, particularly the more involved it gets with hosts and hosts' listings. I have all along wished that Airbnb would be little more than a more "sparkly" version of Craiglist, thus to allow hosts the greatest measure of independence and freedom in offering what they themselves want to offer, at the prices they want to offer, without meddling from Airbnb in managing hosts' listings, ratings, threats to remove listing over low ratings, etc.
The fact that Airbnb collects the payments from guests and transmits them to host, makes it different than Craiglist, but if this third party payment were all that were involved, I think actually Airbnb could still be relatively comparable to Craiglist in terms of legal position regarding claims for discrimination.
It could be viewed as beneficial for hosts, if Airbnb is the party sued in allegations over discrimination, rather than the host themselves, since that could be viewed as protecting the host from liability. HOwever, the down side of that, is that if Airbnb is viewed as liable, rather than the individual hosts, who knows what this exposure to liability could result in, in terms of response from Airbnb ---- and how this could impact hosts and hosts' own freedom to run their own business, offer what they want to offer, to the kinds of guests they want to have, and be able to decline anyone on any basis without being required to give an explanation for that decline.
Could exposure to such liability result in more of a "Big Brother" company, which takes a heavier hand in running host's businesses, demands reasons for each decline, sets up a complaint and investigation department to handle complaints of discrimination, and is prepared to investigate every "decline" which results in a complaint by a would-be guest? Could hosts find themselves at some point required by AIrbnb to use instant book and accept all comers, as long as they agree to house rules? As I have expressed before I have considerable concern about greater "policing" of hosts, and so any new developments which seem poised to prompt this, are of concern to me.
Last Edit: May 19, 2016 at 9:41am by Deborah
MiluMay 19, 2016 at 1:16pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Milu on May 19, 2016 at 1:16pm
Article on Jezebel about this guy:
jezebel.com/airbnb-sued-by-black-guest-who-says-company-ignored-hos-1777549573
andrewMay 19, 2016 at 1:28pm Deborah likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on May 19, 2016 at 1:28pm
On the merits, this lawsuit bears a striking similarity to the landmark 1994 lawsuit against Denny's, in which the restaurant chain ultimately paid out a $54 million settlement to thousands of black customers who reported being denied service or treated poorly. In isolation, many of the incidents would have been harder to substantiate as racial discrimination; however, in aggregate, the vast number of allegations made the pattern undeniable. Like Airbnb, Denny's certainly had no top-down orders to discriminate against black patrons - the discriminatory acts were committed by unrelated individuals acting on their own.
On the broader implications, though, there are some huge differences that show us how this could turn out to be an important case - one whose results may actually benefit hosts in the long-term. The first being that a chain restaurant is unequivocally a "public accommodation" in the eyes of federal law, but there is currently no federal precedent on whether Airbnb is in itself a public accommodation. The plaintiffs' argument hinges on this notion:
Airbnb is an inn, hotel, motel or other establishment which provides
lodging to transient guests.
And, furthermore, the notion that hosts act as agents of Airbnb (like Denny's staff act as agents of their employer) rather than as independent lodging providers:
Airbnb’s agent, representative, servant or employee Hosts purposefully and
intentionally discriminated against Plaintiff because he was an African American
by race.
A ruling on this matter could clarify, in the eyes of the law, whether the accommodation provider is the platform or the individual host. I don't know which way the wind is blowing on this now, but it's a matter that will have to be settled before any cohesive legislative consensus can emerge about what the rights and responsibilities of hosts are, and which party bears the greater burden of liability.
The idea of hosts being treated as agents of Airbnb is quite a stretch, as Airbnb has no selection process for hosts that would establish a transfer of responsibility and accountability. Anyone with a vendetta against Airbnb could create a listing and purposefully use it abusively to attract litigation to the brand. In the event that Airbnb is indeed determined to be a public accommodation, we need not panic that Airbnb will force us to take all comers into our homes (which would obviously lead to far worse lawsuits from hosts who are harmed by guests they didn't want). Even more so than Uber, Airbnb's business model fully depends on the understanding that hosts are independent agents - I don't see how it would be able to operate in a jurisdiction that disagrees.
If there's any chance that this case could lead to a ruling that makes Airbnb the responsible party, I think they'll settle out of court to avoid the precedent. If that happens, I can see Airbnb taking greater measures to prevent stupid declines like the one Selden experienced. The host was wrong to say that the room was "unavailable" while leaving the dates open and offering it to what appeared to be other guests. It's never good business sense to make demonstrably false statements, especially when following them up with rhetoric that bolsters a claim of racial bias. A "Big Brother" approach is unlikely, as its immediate effect would be to drive hosts away from the platform in droves. Airbnb has no room inventory of its own; it depends on keeping us feeling comfortable and safe using their service, and our autonomy is critical to that.
At any rate, it will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
DeborahMay 19, 2016 at 1:35pm
@milu --- The article you provided a link to, has many comments posted on it, among which I found these:
yvanehtnioj
Anna Merlan
If I dig deep into the recesses of my Property Law memories, I recall that racial discrimination in housing is actually allowed when you’re renting in your own house or anything smaller than a 4-plex (if the owner also lives there). This was the Murphy exception? Any landlord-tenant lawyers want to correct me on this? If I’m right maybe this lawsuit and the “sharing economy” will finally get that challenged/changed.
40
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yvanehtnioj
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5/19/16 11:22am
Okay, it’s actually called the Mrs. Murphy Exemption. tinyurl.com/hsugj8d
Very interested to see if AirBnB rentals fall under it.
As discussed in this space in past posts, our federal Fair Housing Act (FHA) contains a handful of exceptions, the most famous of which is the “Mrs. Murphy Exemption.” This provision in the law provides that a home is exempt from the FHA if the dwelling has four or fewer rental units and the owner lives in one of those units. The exemption is based upon the hypothetical elderly widow, Mrs. Murphy, who would like to rent part of her home and who may desire to specifically pick out her tenants.
DarthPumpkin
yvanehtnioj
5/19/16 11:26am
Found this, tinyurl.com/gmfhnt9
www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/renters-rights-book/chapter5-2.htmlwhich seems to agree with your assessment.
That being said, might the court decide that Airbnb is governed by different rules, given that the tenant-landlord relationship involves them as a third party facilitator?
Last Edit: May 19, 2016 at 1:44pm by Deborah
DeborahMay 19, 2016 at 1:43pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on May 19, 2016 at 1:43pm
I agree Andrew that it will be very interesting to see how it all plays out. I'm hoping that some questions actually are answered by the suit, rather than simply resulting in a settlement, without answering or dealing with any legal questions. Many people are wondering exactly what the laws are and how they apply to Airbnb and hosts, how hosts are related to Airbnb, is Airbnb a public accomodation. I think it would be very surprising if a ruling stated that Airbnb was a public accomodation when laws currently clarify that hosts who offer space in their own homes, are generally not public accomodations.
It's true that Airbnb taking more control over hosts' homes would drive hosts away ---- which makes me all the more curious how Airbnb would react to this suit and others like it that may come down the pipeline. What policy decisions may come out of it.
I actually am surprised it took this long for a discrimination suit to appear, given the number of hosts who have very little or no experience renting out property, who may have absolutely no knowledge of antidiscrimination laws, and who thus could be expected to not take adequate care in how they respond to those interested in renting.
becksMay 19, 2016 at 6:22pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by becks on May 19, 2016 at 6:22pm
Sorry to butt in here but how do I create a thread? I checked the 'how to use this forum' post and it says to click on the black button at the top right of the page. Well, I ain't got no black button. I want to discuss the new terms of service. I can't access the site without agreeing to the terms, want to know what others think. Thanks in advance.
DeborahMay 19, 2016 at 6:30pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on May 19, 2016 at 6:30pm
HI Becks --- let me post this and then I'll answer your question below.
I found this, which is quite interesting - apparently Craigslist was in fact sued over the issue of discrimination. This apparently involved ads which were discriminatory on their face. Craigslist attorneys filed a motion to dismiss, claiming that Craiglist bore no responsibility for the ads users posted on its site. Their motion to dismiss was granted. See this webpage:
www.dmlp.org/threats/chicago-lawyers-committee-civil-rights-under-law-v-craigslistOn April 14, 2006, craigslist filed a motion to dismiss the case, arguing that section 230 of the Communication Decency Act ("CDA 230") provides total immunity against the CLC's FHA claims. The CLC opposed the motion, arguing that Craigslist was not entitled to immunity under CDA 230 because it failed to make a good-faith effort to screen the offending ads.
In November 2006, the district court granted craigslist's motion and dismissed the case. The court held that CDA 230 protects providers of interactive computer services from claims that require a finding that the provider published third-party content. Because the FHA bans publication of discriminatory advertisements, the court reasoned that craigslist cannot be liable for FHA violations of its users pursuant to CDA 230.
Last Edit: May 19, 2016 at 6:51pm by Deborah
DeborahMay 19, 2016 at 6:35pm
becks
In order to create a thread, you first have to be in the right place on the forum. You can't create a thread if you are within a thread -- and you can't create a thread from the forum main page. The first step in creating a thread is to click on one of the boards. So you would for instance click on AIrbnb Products and Updates....
Which would take you here:
ANd you can see the black "create thread" button in the upper right corner area of this page.
Last Edit: May 19, 2016 at 6:36pm by Deborah
becksMay 19, 2016 at 6:35pm
That's nice that websites can allow people to post racist/discrimatory ads. Woop de doo. That's just fab. Meantime, any thoughts on the new Terms? Sorry. My back is gone, I'm in pain and severely grumpy!!
DeborahMay 19, 2016 at 6:39pm
When were new terms announced? I didn't get a notice of that.
Actually if you have ever looked at Craigslist you'll see that they warn people in very strong terms, to not post discriminatory content on any ad, and they invite people to flag ads over discriminatory content, and they will remove them. THis lawsuit wasn't about "allowing" them to have such ads, it was more about the issue of legal liability and who was responsible for that. Ultimately only the poster is legally liable, but CL will remove such ads. In fact though, one of the problems with CL, is that they will pretty much remove ANY ad, regardless of whether it violates any terms, if more than one person flags it. So there is a real problem there as that leaves advertisers wide open to being bullied.
Last Edit: May 19, 2016 at 6:42pm by Deborah
becksMay 19, 2016 at 6:42pm Deborah likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by becks on May 19, 2016 at 6:42pm
Thank you! It's obvious really - pick your forum and then you get to create a thread....doh!
DeborahMay 19, 2016 at 6:43pm
Well....it isnt' necessarily obvious ...but it is logical!\
becksMay 19, 2016 at 6:45pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by becks on May 19, 2016 at 6:45pm
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May 19, 2016 at 6:43pm Deborah said:
Well....it isnt' necessarily obvious ...but it is logical!
LOL! Dr Spock versus.... I dunno... Van Gogh...ha ha!
DeborahOh wow!!! I just discovered something very interesting.
I had thought it remarkable that Greg Selden got his Class action lawsuit filed so rapidly after that event where he was declined and did the 3 photos experiment. I just found out why this lawsuit was filed in blazing record time. (usually it takes at least a couple months after an event to file suit about it, and class action suits typically take still longer).
AIrbnb's new terms of service go into effect today, and included in the new TOS is a waiver of the right to file class action lawsuits against Airbnb!! So Greg scooted in just in the nick of time. As of today, no AIrbnb user is permitted to file class action lawsuits against Airbnb.
However, I think Airbnb could still concievablly argue that in fact Greg still has no right to file a class action suit, as the TOS actually went into effect on March 29 2016, and so it could argue hosts have been bound by those terms since that date. See here:
www.airbnb.com/termLast Edit: May 19, 2016 at 9:46pm by Deborah
CCMay 20, 2016 at 2:15am
I love this whole discussion! So many insights & honest reactions. How about me: I live in a place where race is everything. It's the first thing we all think about in the morning, the last at night. It is more segregated here than in South Africa. I am proud of my race and prefer to be around white people--BUT I WILL RENT TO ANYONE! How's that?
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May 20, 2016 at 4:08am Deborah likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on May 20, 2016 at 4:08am
I was just asked to agree to the New Terms when I logged in today. At least two of them appear to be direct reactions to the lawsuit. In the summary, hosts in the United States were asked to take note of the following change (#34)
Dispute Resolution
If you reside in the United States, you and Airbnb agree that any dispute, claim or controversy arising out of or relating to these Terms or the breach, termination, enforcement, interpretation or validity thereof, or to the use of the Services or use of the Site, Application or Collective Content (collectively, "Disputes") will be settled by binding arbitration, except that each party retains the right to seek injunctive or other equitable relief in a court of competent jurisdiction to prevent the actual or threatened infringement, misappropriation or violation of a party's copyrights, trademarks, trade secrets, patents, or other intellectual property rights. You acknowledge and agree that you and Airbnb are each waiving the right to a trial by jury or to participate as a plaintiff or class member in any purported class action lawsuit, class-wide arbitration, private attorney-general action, or any other representative proceeding. Further, unless both you and Airbnb otherwise agree in writing, the arbitrator may not consolidate more than one person's claims, and may not otherwise preside over any form of any class or representative proceeding. If this specific paragraph is held unenforceable, then the entirety of this "Dispute Resolution" section will be deemed void. Except as provided in the preceding sentence, this "Dispute Resolution" section will survive any termination of these Terms.
Arbitration Rules and Governing Law. This agreement to arbitrate evidences a transaction in interstate commerce, and thus the Federal Arbitration Act governs the interpretation and enforcement of this provision. The arbitration will be administered by the American Arbitration Association ("AAA") in accordance with the Commercial Arbitration Rules and the Supplementary Procedures for Consumer Related Disputes (the "AAA Rules") then in effect, except as modified by this "Dispute Resolution" section. (The AAA Rules are available at
www.adr.org/arb_med or by calling the AAA at 1--800--778--7879.) The Federal Arbitration Act will govern the interpretation and enforcement of this section.
Arbitration Process. A party who desires to initiate arbitration must provide the other party with a written Demand for Arbitration as specified in the AAA Rules. (The AAA provides a form Demand for Arbitration.) The arbitrator will be either a retired judge or an attorney licensed to practice law in the state of California and will be selected by the parties from the AAA's roster of consumer dispute arbitrators. If the parties are unable to agree upon an arbitrator within seven (7) days of delivery of the Demand for Arbitration, then the AAA will appoint the arbitrator in accordance with the AAA Rules.
Arbitration Location and Procedure. Unless you and Airbnb otherwise agree, the arbitration will be conducted in the county where you reside. If your claim does not exceed $10,000, then the arbitration will be conducted solely on the basis of documents you and Airbnb submit to the arbitrator, unless you request a hearing or the arbitrator determines that a hearing is necessary. If your claim exceeds $10,000, your right to a hearing will be determined by the AAA Rules. Subject to the AAA Rules, the arbitrator will have the discretion to direct a reasonable exchange of information by the parties, consistent with the expedited nature of the arbitration.
Arbitrator's Decision. The arbitrator will render an award within the time frame specified in the AAA Rules. The arbitrator's decision will include the essential findings and conclusions upon which the arbitrator based the award. Judgment on the arbitration award may be entered in any court having jurisdiction thereof. The arbitrator's award damages must be consistent with the terms of the "Limitation of Liability" section above as to the types and the amounts of damages for which a party may be held liable. The arbitrator may award declaratory or injunctive relief only in favor of the claimant and only to the extent necessary to provide relief warranted by the claimant's individual claim. If you prevail in arbitration you will be entitled to an award of attorneys' fees and expenses, to the extent provided under applicable law. Airbnb will not seek, and hereby waives all rights it may have under applicable law to recover, attorneys' fees and expenses if it prevails in arbitration.
Fees. Your responsibility to pay any AAA filing, administrative and arbitrator fees will be solely as set forth in the AAA Rules. However, if your claim for damages does not exceed $75,000, Airbnb will pay all such fees unless the arbitrator finds that either the substance of your claim or the relief sought in your Demand for Arbitration was frivolous or was brought for an improper purpose (as measured by the standards set forth in Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 11(b)).
Changes. Notwithstanding the provisions of the "Modification" section above, if Airbnb changes this "Dispute Resolution" section after the date you first accepted these Terms (or accepted any subsequent changes to these Terms), you may reject any such change by sending us written notice (including by email) within 30 days of the date such change became effective, as indicated in the "Last Updated" date above or in the date of Airbnb's email to you notifying you of such change. By rejecting any change, you are agreeing that you will arbitrate any Dispute between you and Airbnb in accordance with the provisions of this "Dispute Resolution" section as of the date you first accepted these Terms (or accepted any subsequent changes to these Terms).
Here's a summary of all the changes:
Updates to the Terms of Service
We moved the payments terms into a separate document, the Payments Terms of Service.
We clarified our dispute resolution process.
We further clarified our existing relationship with customers, including that hosts on our platform are independent third party contractors.
We clarified Intellectual Property Ownership and Rights Notices and incorporated our Trademark and Branding Guidelines.
We clarified how customers and Airbnb can terminate the agreement and what actions Airbnb can take against customers that violate our Terms of Service, applicable laws or otherwise pose a risk for Airbnb or other members of our community.
Of course these terms don't retroactively apply to the Selden case, but they clearly hope it to be the last of its kind.
andrewMay 20, 2016 at 4:12am maria likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on May 20, 2016 at 4:12am
Apparently the updated terms apply to existing users as of May 19, and to first-time users as of March 29. If Selden's account was created prior to that date (as it appears to have been), he's covered by the previous terms.
DeborahMay 20, 2016 at 7:30am CC likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on May 20, 2016 at 7:30am
CC --- I love you for your honesty and candor, CC!!
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May 20, 2016 at 8:55am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by maria on May 20, 2016 at 8:55am
About his picture (the potential guest now claiming discrimination). Maybe I am used to host so many interns. I like his expression, a casual picture took on the spot, probably from a car camera.
spontaneous, his lips slightly open, not ready for the shot. I like his picture.
Now, for my own picture, at my age....no close-ups please. ;-)
Last Edit: May 20, 2016 at 1:26pm by maria
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May 20, 2016 at 2:27pm via Tapatalk Deborah likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by CC on May 20, 2016 at 2:27pm
And furthermore, I DID host every one of those pictured guys--last week! I don't "choose" guests, see... I HAVE 8 LISTINGS ON INSTANT BOOK!!
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May 20, 2016 at 5:19pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on May 20, 2016 at 5:19pm
Airbnb issues statement on "A Fair Community For Everyone" from Airbnb's Director of Diversity, David King:
www.airbnbaction.com/a-fair-community-for-everyone/By David King, Director of Diversity
In recent days, there have been reports about people who were discriminated against because of their race when they tried to book an Airbnb listing. Racial discrimination is unacceptable and it flies in the face of our mission to bring people together.
We take this issue incredibly seriously and we want you to know more about how we address this matter.
We have clear goals: we want to eliminate unconscious bias in the Airbnb community and fight discrimination. Airbnb has demonstrated the ability to bring people together and make it easier for more people to explore the world and we’ve seen how the simple act of sharing a home can unite people from all walks of life. We want to bring people together and fight the hidden biases that can prevent people from connecting.
We realize these goals will be difficult to reach and we have a lot to learn, as we are confronting an age-old problem. Discrimination based on race has plagued societies for centuries and sadly, this kind of contemptible behavior takes place online and offline. We are a company that has developed a truly global people-to-people platform and every day, we learn an unbelievable amount from our community. While no single company is going to eliminate discrimination in the world, we have long been committed to fighting discrimination and working to eliminate unconscious bias on our platform.
As a starting point, we have policies in place that prohibit discrimination on our platform. We prohibit content that promotes discrimination, bigotry, racism, hatred, harassment or harm against any individual or group, and we require all users to comply with local laws and regulations. We have removed hosts from our community who discriminate against guests because of their race or sexual orientation or other factors and we will continue to do so.
We also offer a feature called Instant Book that makes certain listings available to be booked on demand. Instant Book helps ensure guests can book an Airbnb listing without prior host approval of a specific guest. Right now, we have 550,000 listings around the world available for Instant Book. There is no additional fee for confirming a reservation with Instant Book and you can filter your search to only view listings that are available through Instant Book.
Going forward, we are taking a series of steps to build on our current policies and help achieve our goals. Some of this work includes:
Unconscious Bias Training. Studies have shown that many people have biases they never think about. Fighting unconscious bias is difficult, but there are proven trainings that can work. We made unconscious bias training available to over 5,000 hosts who attended the Airbnb Open, and we will conduct additional trainings for hosts both in-person in key markets and through webinars before the end of the year. We will evaluate the effectiveness of this program to inform subsequent trainings.
A Bigger Spotlight on Reviews. Recently, we’ve conducted research about trust with experts at Stanford University. Not surprisingly, the research revealed we are more likely to trust people with similar characteristics -- it's a natural social bias researchers call homophily. But the same research found that reputation systems -- like the star ratings on Airbnb -- are even more powerful. The research found that when people were choosing who to trust, reputation scores were more important than whether users shared similar characteristics. In short, high reputation beats high similarity.
There’s still a lot of work to be done in this field (this particular study didn’t examine race) but we think doing more to promote the reviews members of the Airbnb community receive from one another is one promising way to fight bias and discrimination. We’re exploring the best ways to achieve that goal.
Strengthened Customer Service. Our Customer Experience Team has helped millions of travelers have a positive trip, but we’re constantly trying to do more for our community. In the coming months, we will enhance the trainings these teams receive to include specific instruction on how to identify and combat hosts who may be inappropriately refusing to share their space with certain guests.
Fighting Bias With Technology. Our data science teams will closely examine machine learning models and other tech tools we can use to help enforce our anti-discrimination policy.
Many well-intentioned people have suggested a range of different ideas for tackling these problems. In some cases, we’ve determined that some of the ideas could create unintended negative consequences -- like eroding trust for our hosts and users. We continue to encourage everyone who shares our commitment to working to eliminate unconscious bias and fighting discrimination to tell us what they think.
We don’t have all the answers and we will continue to reach out to experts and members of our community to get their ideas and advice. We built the Airbnb community by listening and responding to that kind of honest feedback from our community and we’ve heard countless stories of hosts and guests from different communities and cultures who have become lifelong friends and never would have met without Airbnb. Those kinds of positive people-to-people interactions are what Airbnb is all about and we will continue to work as hard as we can to break down barriers and bring people together.
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It's the "fighting bias with technology" part that sounds eerily big brotherish to me. Also I am wondering what is involved in the "combat" with certain hosts who refuse to share the space with "certain" guests. LIke my "Fifteen GUests you don't want" blog globalhosting.freeforums.net/thread/2001/fifteen-guests-blog -- is CX now going to bully us if we barricade the door against Sally the Scammer?
But, joking aside, Airbnb is clearly going beyond the laws about discrimination, and its language as stated here suggests that it would prohibit hosts from utilizing their protections under the "MRs Murphy Exemption" stated above (see here: fairhousing.foxrothschild.com/2013/04/articles/fha-basics/the-fhas-mrs-murphy-exemption-a-50-state-guide/ ) I wonder about the legality of this -- if US law states clearly that property owners can discriminate on any basis under circumstances outlined in the Mrs Murphy Exemption, is Airbnb on solid ground when trying to remove that exemption? The legal fact of the matter is that while Airbnb is opposed to "bias", property owners have a right to employ such bias in their selection of renters. Airbnb can argue that it would hold its users to a higher standard than the law, but another way of looking at this is that Airbnb is removing freedoms which the law provides.
As well --- I wonder about the potentially "biased" way that Airbnb is viewing "bias." Statements like those above, and national politics about discrimination issues, are now heavily focused mostly on race and sexual orientation, as well as gender identity. However, laws about discrimination cover several other categories, which Airbnb may have a "bias" against not paying attention to, yet those would be equally worthy concerns from a strictly legal standpoint. For instance, the category of "familial status", whereby the law prohibits discrimination against those with children. Airbnb's rhetoric on bias, bigotry, hate etc, as politically correct as it is, does not actually pertain as well to this issue of familial status, since there is no political issue of "bigotry" lr "hate" regarding those with children. It's just that children are often not wanted by property owners, particularly Airbnb hosts who have all their worldly belongings in their home.
So this makes me wonder -- is Airbnb going to address "discrimination" issues in a legal way, or in a political way? My take is that they are primarily concerned with being politically correct rather than with applying laws about discrimination, which is what I read into their choice of what "bias" to be biased towards having concern about. This could result in a big "blind" spot as to the "no children" issue for hosts.
Last Edit: May 21, 2016 at 9:55am by Deborah
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May 20, 2016 at 5:22pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on May 20, 2016 at 5:22pm
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May 20, 2016 at 2:27pm CC said:
And furthermore, I DID host every one of those pictured guys--last week! I don't "choose" guests, see... I HAVE 8 LISTINGS ON INSTANT BOOK!!
I'd love to hear the stories, CC!
At CC's -- everyone is invited in, but not everyone stays....some end up chased down the street with a frying pan flying through the air not far behind them...
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May 20, 2016 at 5:39pm via Tapatalk ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by CC on May 20, 2016 at 5:39pm
Yeah--and others just leave cuz they can't take it!
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May 24, 2016 at 4:07pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on May 24, 2016 at 4:07pm
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May 7, 2016 at 5:22am andrew said:
Neither of us would wish to lose the right to refuse a stranger entry into our homes. But this is a Straw Man, because no one is actually trying to take that right away. .
Actually it does seem that Airbnb, at least in some instances, is quite willing to take that right away!
Olivier posted today that certain new hosts will be required to use INstant Book! SEe here: globalhosting.freeforums.net/thread/2354/instant-booking-available-newbies
I don't want to have to say, "Toldja so", but now it seems I'm saying it much earlier than I thought I would --- "Toldja so!" Having seen the kinds of things Airbnb is doing with getting so overinvolved in hosts' listings -- I think we should all have some concerns about where this is all headed.
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May 24, 2016 at 5:37pm via mobile ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by kiyomiandtoshio on May 24, 2016 at 5:37pm
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May 24, 2016 at 4:07pm Deborah said:
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May 7, 2016 at 5:22am andrew said:
Neither of us would wish to lose the right to refuse a stranger entry into our homes. But this is a Straw Man, because no one is actually trying to take that right away. .
Actually it does seem that Airbnb, at least in some instances, is quite willing to take that right away!
Olivier posted today that certain new hosts will be required to use INstant Book! SEe here: globalhosting.freeforums.net/thread/2354/instant-booking-available-newbies
I don't want to have to say, "Toldja so", but now it seems I'm saying it much earlier than I thought I would --- "Toldja so!" Having seen the kinds of things Airbnb is doing with getting so overinvolved in hosts' listings -- I think we should all have some concerns about where this is all headed.
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May 31, 2016 at 8:32am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on May 31, 2016 at 8:32am
The concerns/news stories about alleged racism in Airbnb rentals, is being exploited by a group called "Share Better", which began a while back as an anti-Airbnb organization. Its entire purpose seems to be to fight Airbnb rentals, and push for heavier restrictions or bans on home sharing.
nypost.com/2016/05/30/airbnb-targeted-by-group-alleging-racism/
See more about "Share Better" here:
www.sharebetter.org/story/share-better-campaign-goes-national/www.sharebettersf.com/www.facebook.com/sharebetterSF/mashable.com/2014/12/04/share-better-coalition/#n_ZOZHqXtaqG
ballotpedia.org/City_of_San_Francisco_Initiative_to_Restrict_Short-Term_Rentals,_Proposition_F_(November_2015)
twitter.com/share_better
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May 31, 2016 at 12:08pm Deborah likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Karen on May 31, 2016 at 12:08pm
I think this Instant Book requirement for new hosts is an Airbnb reaction to all the media attention to racially-based rejections. Airbnb does need to stand against racial discrimination but this policy is more than a little scary to me. I think it will be just a matter of time before Airbnb enforces this new policy on all hosts.
Before accepting a guest, I communicate with them, look at their photo and verifications, and then I go with my gut. I would never reject anyone based on race, gender identity, age, etc. but I would based on what their photo says to me. I do know my gut reaction can be wrong. For instance, andrew, your Airbnb profile photo in the dark clothing makes you look sinister and scary. But the photo of you smiling is a totally different feeling. My gut would accept smiling Andrew but would find a reason to decline sinister Andrew. And, if I had rejected sinister Andrew, I would have missed an opportunity to host a bright, charming young man; my loss. However, being able to reject someone because of my gut feeling should be my right; we are hosting strangers in our homes. I really don't want Airbnb to mandate Instant Booking.
(andrew, I met you in Paris at our dinner and I am confused. Are you black? Or, maybe just black-ish? Whatever, I find you very insightful and informative and I really appreciate your posts!)
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May 31, 2016 at 12:18pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on May 31, 2016 at 12:18pm
Karen, I feel the same way....I'm very concerned about the "mandatory" instant book that Airbnb is forcing on select new hosts. Airbnb has been pushing instant book for quite some time, so the way I view it, they may be exploiting the recent political issues regarding racial discrimination in society generally, and also specifically, with regard to Airbnb rentals, to further their interest in pushing instant book on hosts.
Someone else too said they thought this policy would be forced on all hosts. I find that a very chilling idea. I also think it is one frought with legal problems -- AIrbnb wants to force IB on hosts but simultaneously is saying that the insurance it offers isnt real insurance....in other words, here hosts take much greater liability and much more risk of serious problems with guests, and we will offer you less coverage and protection in exchange.
In particular, offering instant book for long term bookings -- eg a guest who wants to stay 3 or 4 months -- would be totally unworkable. It would be viewed as an easy way for scammers and squatters to gain instant access not only to other's homes, but to a right to stay there as tenants with all legal rights and protections -- something that property owners never give away, particularly in cities with strong rent control, without a very thorough screening process.
ALso, the whole idea of taking away someone's right to control whom they have in their own home, would be detestable to a great number of hosts. However, it may turn out that so many are desperate for the income that they are willing to hand over this right and this freedom and security, for the money they can get.
About the automatical IB it seems it would be a stillborn project(at least in Europe): UE authorities are on the way to adopt global rules for Europe, with less regulation but with a slight difference:
"dès lors que ces derniers (les utilisateurs) perdent leur liberté de fixation de prix ou de choix de leurs clients, ils pourraient être considérés comme salariés des sociétés, ce qui constituerait un coup très dur pour le modèle économique de ces dernières."
'Since users would loose they free right to set prices or to choose their client, they should be considered as platform employees, what would constitute a hard blow for their economic model'
From
www.lesechos.fr/industrie-services/tourisme-transport/021982951514-uber-airbnb-bruxelles-veut-en-finir-avec-la-zizanie-europeenne-2002700.phpandrew
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May 31, 2016 at 2:19pm maria likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on May 31, 2016 at 2:19pm
Karen , yes I am black, that is my heritage, and I also recognize that the word means something different in every location. In countries in which your basic civil rights were historically determined by whether you had a black grandparent or great-grandparent (the US being one of the latter) the term "black" has a broader meaning - one that includes many people you might have even presumed to be Nordic - than in those for which black residents are a relative novelty. I've lived in six countries now, so I'm personally used to people being perplexed about my origins. But as a general rule, it's safe to assume that any individual is a better expert on his own origins and identity than any person observing him.
It's funny that you find the former photo "sinister"; it's actually the work of a very famous art photographer who also happens to be a friend that interprets the image quite differently (his style tends to be a bit dark). I think the huge variance in reactions to that image only reveal how utterly ridiculous it is to think one can make a reasonable judgment of a person's character based on a photograph. If you've been in Europe for the last 10 years you've probably seen my face on a print ad or a magazine at some point, in an image even I wouldn't recognize as myself. Some of them are mortifying and some simply photoshopped to death, but none of them would ever go onto my profile - I only chose ones that look somewhat like the way I see myself. I agree with Deborah that photos contain information, but here's where we diverge - I can say after being a model for 20 years and a photographer for 15 that photos reveal vastly more about the photographer than about the subject, and that we'd be extremely misguided to make an important decision on the basis of them. Half the time you're just seeing a hastily chosen snap thrown in while trying to complete a profile and find a room. Guests don't have the kind of deeply-rooted investment in their profiles that hosts do.
The photo that you liked more - well, people have also used words such as "deranged," "werewolf," and "moronic" to describe it. And those are just nice people who I like. For the record, changing the photo has not increased my odds of being accepted by a non-IB host. The fact is, every request I've sent has come attached to a lengthy and personable message and is backed up by over 100 positive reviews. It's unusual to get a request from someone more fully vetted and experienced in the system than I am as a longtime host and frequent guest. So if someone takes that overwhelming amount of supporting information validating my trustworthiness as an Airbnb member and decides that I'm still unworthy of their accommodation based on a photograph or the "energy" they think it communicates, frankly I don't think they're qualified to work with the public in any capacity.
I'm still totally with you, though, that the right to decline a booking is essential, even if I dislike the reasons many have for doing so. Hotels have resources for managing problem guests that we don't; a private home can't be expected to have security detail, surveilance cameras, buttloads of insurance, and staff who can grin and bear it and then clock out and go somewhere else when the shift is over. We have to physically live with our guests, or at least have them staying in our personal living space, and to my mind that degree of intimacy comes with a need for selectivity that public facilities don't share. I oppose any measure to make Instant Book non-optional and would not choose to list with Airbnb if it became a requirement. However, I take experiments conducted on "a select group of new hosts" with a grain of salt, considering that very few new listings actually become full-time listings on Airbnb. They can afford to lose 75% of their new hosts, as statistically most of them are not going to stick around anyway, and this is especially true in major markets that are already oversaturated with listings. Where I live, Airbnb already has enough listings, so if they want to raise the bar for a new one so that it has to be instant-book or free-infants or business-ready or £10 per night, then so be it - the new hosts can decide for themselves if those demands are acceptable. If they try to apply any of those demands to me as well, then I can walk away and list with a competing site. I don't see having an Airbnb listing as a fundamental right, but as a contractual agreement that has to be beneficial to both parties in order to work.
They may decide one day that it's worthwhile to them to host only Instant Book listings. They have every right to make that choice, and I think it would be a very bad one, but they can't force me to offer my own home for this purpose.
Last Edit: May 31, 2016 at 2:21pm by andrew
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