London Home Trashed by Guest -- David's Story from 2015

David shared in Sept 2015 on NEw Hosts Forum


www.airbnb.com/groups/content/content-176450


London Apartment trashed by Airbnb guests


David


Just had my apartment trashed. Instant book, and phoned CX as had some doubts when booking came through.

And been totally shocked by Airbnb's total woeful and inadequate response. Basically,I was told to reach out ,to the guest to reach some agreement over the 'damage.' The 'guests' broke a window, stole load items including microwave, rugs, the Vacuum. And now waiting for police to arrive before start cleaning. They also hurled a chair from 3rd floor balcony - you can see fragments of wood - luckily it did not hit anyone . The smell of smoking is so bad and so annoying as we book children here who have allergies and we guarantee smoke and pet free home.

This weekend was to have been our last ever guests here, had to cancel them. And luckily deleted all but a couple of my listings now .



Deanna:

OMG such pigs.I hope they are arrested. You should twitter/instagram this or whatever. I've heard that Airbnb stands up and takes notice when they are getting bad publicity.


Maria and Larry: (Lula)


So unfair and David is such a hard working Host. Time for tweeter?

C C


I'm so sorry, David. You are one of the best hosts there are!


Joyce


I'm so sorry this happened to you and that the response from Airbnb has been disappointing!


Evelyn

I"m so sorry you're going through this.

David
Many thanks for all the support. To be told to open dialogue with these 'guests' who actually stole goods, they took all the sets of keys, is laughable really. All new hosts, please set a high security deposit, because when it comes to it, Airbnb do not seem to honour their 'host guarantee' at all. I mean I had 9 listings this year, so have contributed a few €'s to airbnb pot, you would think, they would be a little more understanding that when you have had your home and trust violated that you really want nothing more to do with perpetrators...


Evelyn
I believe Airbnb will honor their guarantee. You have to follow the protocol of contacting the police (which you did), taking photos (which you did), contact the guests.. and I will say escalate the issue within the Airbnb world. Call them again and ask to speak to a manager. Someone higher up.

Deborah


Agree that it always sounds dopey for you to be instructed by CX to dialogue with people who obviously aren't open to dialogue. I think they get these young wide-eyed lads and lasses in CX who read from a script --- sometimes you wonder if they've been out and about in the world. But keep in mind this is just the process to go through, not the end point. Eventually as Evelyn says Airbnb will come through. One just has to endure the canned, tinny, tin-eared responses at the start.

Drew


Deborah, although I agree with nearly everything you've said above...my reaction is 'why?!' Why must we have to 'endure the canned, tinny, tin-eared responses at the start"...?! This may have been acceptable in 2008-10, but now with the crazy amount of stays/night happening, it's time to step up the Support game at airbnb. This is why airbnb MUST break out ownership of Hosts to an independent cost center internally with dedicated leadership tasked to advocate for the Host community. David's case *exactly* punctuates why the present system is broken. Mindless and thoughtless canned responses coupled with little/no action plan to help Hosts (and upcoming Guests) maneuver past the damage caused by bad Guest(s). The current path is just terrible...as Deborah has pointed out.

Louise


It's ludicrous, and bloody insulting, for CX to instruct the victim to 'open a dialogue' with the perp. If the CX employee is so lacking in common sense and initiative that they can't figure out that following the script in this instance is wildly inappropriate, then they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a phone. Why does Airbnb continue to hire these drones? Who is responsible for their abysmal training and performance?

C C
Let me "reach out" to them, David.


David
Ha ha c c. You and me both!

Maria and Larry
C C would do a great job telling them off

Deborah
From what I recall of a previous post on bad guest behavior, CC would be chasing the guest down the street with a broom.... :-)))

Rhonda


C C......I just knew we could count on you.

Drew
David - sorry that you are going through this. Hate to say it....but your experience punctuates why I continue to strongly resist the push for IB. For all the Hosts that tout it and have only had positive experiences, your (others) sole negative experience is reason enough to just not do it (and, it's not a matter of 'if', but 'when').


Of course what's worse is how poorly the matter is being handled by airbnb. I encourage you to engage senior management at airbnb (Chip et al), and find someone in the press to illuminate the issue (preferably with an emphasis on IB and it's folly). I'd also flood @airbnbhelp on twitter.


Again, sorry for your trouble. Please keep us appraised.

C C
I have IB, but am onsite & you aren't just at people's mercy just because they're present. You're still in control & if it comes to it, it's a lot of trouble, but you can use police or your mob connections to bounce them.

Drew
Yeah...your comment does absolutely nothing to move my needle towards IB. Not one bit. Granted I only manage one property (two listings), but I'm > 95% booked nearly year-round. And with Guests appropriately vetted by yours truly. IB....pfft, who needs that drama. No thanks.

C C
That's excellent to be that booked without it. I still wonder if tou couldn't have a jerk get by all that vetting, too, though. In which case you still have a situation.

Drew
Never claimed to be foolproof. But...my way has some control over who enters my home. IB offers little to none. The end.

C C
I hear you. That's where the blank-eaters like me come in. Everybody's happy. Except David.

Alexina


David, this is so shocking! I'm so sorry to hear that you're going through all this. As other hosts have said, please keep us informed as to how it all comes out (Airbnb response, security deposit, mob connections...OK, maybe you won't be able to share that part...) I would go directly to Chip Conley, rather than the press. He's likely to get to the bottom of it in a positive way.

nathalie


i think if that happens to me , i would stop immediatly as well.


David
Police as obviously this is not a priority will be coming in several hours. And they asked me to to touch anything or start cleaning until after they have been. So been in local cafe most day working from there . But just discovering more damage, I looked up to find shower gel squirted all up on a ceiling and then odour of urime hit me. They have urinted over the linen case. I unlocked it to find soaked with urine bedding , blankets, etc. Perhaps,they could not unlock so did it in retaliation. But yes, email to Chip C is being composed next.


Joyce


Seriously?!?!? What a nightmare! I don't have any other words, except, again, so sorry this happened to you!!

Maria and Larry
Bunch of sociopaths! This us so infuriating. What gave you pause? You mentioned trust your instinct. Why?

Deborah
Disgusting!! Sociopaths indeed.

Susan

I hope it was shower gel and not something else! Wear gloves and mask when cleaning or bring in one of those haz mat crime scene people!

Mig


Eeeesh, what frickin lowlife scumbags. Sorry for your troubles.

C C
Omg. David. Why in the world... What vibe did you get initially when they intant booked?


David
Cc. Bad vibes, I actually phoned CX to cancel . My bad call here. CX said 'hey, they have paid , you have a good deposit, think it will be cool'. But I had lingering doubts, and to be honest needed the cash as this place is ££££ to run. So... YeP, I let cash rule my head .This apartment though it just it made for parties... I am going to move back in here and just rent by room, no longer full apartment, as you said that way can keep a track on things. Thanks for support CC.

David
It sounds like one heck of a party. Music blasting out all night. No one called the police - such a massive surprise, but apparently the music went on until this morning and then stopped at 10am and they all left. Just before my arrival for check out. All the keys though . Entrance and apartment door, need new lock barrels.

C C
Heard that, too, David. It does boil down to money sometimes. We're trying to do the best we can. I know I have financial pressures from every possible angle.


C C
God...my reputation.... Well, let's just say they wouldn't be whizzing on anything anymore.


Fiona


Forget the SOS team, I nominate you for the "they're SOL" team.

David
Emailed Chip C. Within 5 minutes an immediate response from him. He's Escalated it to 'SOS team' and to expect a call from them 'within hour' .

Amazing response from SOS team in California. They apologised for way case has so far been handled. I do not need to follow any of the directions as per instructions from earlier today - I.e trying to reach resolution with the 'guest.' They have released emergency funds to my accout for cleaning, new locks, repair window and will settle full claim when I have all costs to hand. Finally feel some support from Airbnb. Took 7 hours, but why oh why can they not get to this stage from get go? Senior staff always find them great, it is just the initial front liners who are so, so inadequate at dealing with issues.

Andrew


Glad to hear they've gotten it right this time. But you shouldn't have had to write to Chip to get to the SOS team. Airbnb makes it hard enough for newbies to figure out how to contact them at all - let alone get to someone who is competent enough to distinguished a heavy-damage scenario from a torn pillowcase.

Drew
"Took 7 hours, but why oh why can they not get to this stage from get go?" Word.

Evelyn
andrew - Exactly.. David you've handled this horrid situation beautifully.. You got all the right people involved. Imagine a new host, not even part of groups. What do they do if they received the "go to your guest" line?

David
I was so frustrated with lack of empathy, the guy told me he was a manager, but had no comprehension that I was a little in shock that I just opened door to find this mess. So I needed to contact to someone at chip C's level to get support? How outrageous is that? I am quite familiar with airbnb, but never even knew they had an SOS team. They need to connect hosts to this team immediately when damage is substantial . As you all state, how about the new hosts? Without that magic contact to Chip?

Deborah
Glad to hear it, David. See, it does usually get better once you get past the newbie CX staff who are just reading from a script and have no idea what to do with a situation that isn't on their script. Sadly this seems to be the case with so many situations like yours --- one has to deal with the frustration of ridiculous advice and help to start. It just seems obvious to me that some training is needed that would really improve the function here. Really a training one-liner: "if you get a host calling in with what seems like an emergency or criminal situation, don't handle it yourself, young peeps, get a senior staff person on the phone right away."

With the reimbursements coming, I agree with your plan to move in and rent by the room. I really think that that type of arrangement gives us so much more ability to control the situation! I think you will find it much more workable.

By the way, I sent you a private message earlier -- reply to me and I have a question for you.


David
Totally agree Deborah. This was line today from an email I received from so called manager. Hi David, Many thanks for your response. We know it takes time to gather this documentation and want to be sure you have enough of it to gather the materials necessary to process this claim. We hope you understand, though, that we also cannot hold your guest's security deposit indefinitely without documentation.' REALLY!!! I had already sent the images, but they are telling me they will release the deposit back to the guest!? I only discovered the damage today! Shocking, and the moment I got on twitter and then emailed Chip.

Hassen


Point hère is more to know how to avoid such disaster from happening again rather than get it treated in very smart and speedy way. I assume funds to revamp the place are much higher than any security deposit you could put though work upfront booking is the action as i have raised so many times for Airbnb to set on guest verification process. Now that the customer # is there guests quality should be next step

Juliet and Ed


I'm glad you are finally getting some help. And thank you for sharing this story; please keep us updated about how it all ends. I am going to de-activate my IB right now.


Andrew
Yes, I'm bookmarking this thread to share with the next new members who ask about the pros and cons of using IB.

Andrew
So sorry to hear about this disaster, David. Please do keep us updated on how this pans out. Your initial experience with CX is truly unacceptable, and I'd hate to think how this would be for a less experienced host without those coveted contact details for higher-ups. Whoever you spoke to gave you ridiculous advice - "reach out" to a criminal who trashed your property and work out an agreement during a police investigation? The mind boggles. Airbnb is incredibly lucky that you haven't gone public with this, as stories like yours go viral very quickly.

C C
David, I'm sure a lot os us still want to know WHAT SPEFICALLY gave you pause at the beginning. Help us learn.

David
It was a last minute booking . I had a feeling it would be cancelled by CX as had several card fraud bookings from different platforms this year , including airbnb. So i phoned CX and they assure me payment was processed, all legit. I was still not 100%, so I phoned the guest and he reassured me he was not a party person. I didn't believe him and should have cancelled. Airbnb said I would be penalised if I did . I have a large deposit (£750) so thought, ok it is only 3 days, I will risk it. Foolish decision....

Rachel


Oh heck David, I've only just read all this. Shocking stuff and you have my heartfelt sympathy. I assume that they are now all banned from ever making another booking - what effing little bits of crap some people are.


Ernest


David, I'm so sorry this has happened. Chip Conley is the first place to reach out in a case like this and, hearing the results of such contact, I'm certain that was the right move. I hope that you can find an acceptable resolution to this matter and move on. Again, so sorry. Some people really can be horrid. I hope that this incident won't deter you from providing great listings and continuing to be a strong host for the Airbnb community. We are all 100% behind you and look forward to this being fully behind you. Onward and upward. Wish I could buy you a beer.


Mary and David


So sorry this happened to you David! You have such a lovely place and my heart just crumbled for you - seeing this picture. I really can't relate at ALL, as to what goes through someone's head to be ok doing this to another person's property. And a lot of someone's all at the same time! Just terrible....


Hassen
David have you ever thought of any jealous neighbours? Have to keep it up you who gave us such a memorable 'what i learnt from one year of hosting' some time ago. All the best for your endeavour


David
The support from this group is amazing. Cannot thank you all enough. honestly it really got me through today, just having a place to relay my experience and frustration and to know fellow hosts would understand and 'get' what it feels like to open the door to this...

I am not going to let some scumbags get to me. Tomorrow a pro cleaning team are coming in to deep clean. They stole my vacuum so my excuse to not to it myself ... (Why steal a vacuum, they are so cheap) And then I will get ready for my next guests . But IB is off, ha, ha .


Louise
Why steal the vacuum cleaner? Well, it does sound like a pretty wild party. Maybe the vacuum cleaner wasn't deliberately 'stolen', just inextricably attached to one of the guests. Perhaps you should check your local hospital's ED for any recent admissions who claim to have 'slipped while vacuuming in the shower'

Jackie


I'm a new host and happy to say I haven't yet had a bad experience. But I wonder if the initial 'try to sort it out with the guest' response from support is because, lets face it, hosts are only people too and some try to make a claim for every little thing and blow it up out of all proportion so the front line staff are told "don't make it TOO easy to make a huge claim"? In your case it is genuine but maybe some hosts have tried to get their place redecorated on the back of a single cigarette burn?


David
Totally agree, but I had submitted over 80 photographs, there are stolen items, window smashed. They stole the keys. CX need to access, and ramp up the response accordingly . To do that, team members need to be trained correctly. As in so many cases it is the initial response that is so problematic and this is when hosts need the most support, when the incident first occurs.

Linda


Sorry to hear you had guest that trashed your place. Hope police nab 'em and you get full restoration of your property and worth. We know you lose much more then property and material worth from these horrible crimes - we are encouraged by you for sticking with it. Get em good!

Lisa

OMG David, I'm late to the party on this one as catching up on my shows tonight. Holy shitzen fartzen! WhaT a load of tossers! I'm sooo sorry you have had this damage!! I know how disillusioned you've been over the last few months and were moving away from Airbnb but needed to finish out your booked reservations. This absolutely reinforces your instincts and I find it tragic that people out there can carry out this level of disrespect. If I didn't have an overloaded work schedule over the next few days, I'd jump an East coast train and come help you clean. Best of luck with it all x

David
Thank you Lisa, means a lot. Luckily a lot is 'surface' dirt, and incident could have been a million times worse. I've seen much worse with other poor hosts. So onwards and upwards. Take care x

Lisa
But it's not just surface dirt. It's a group of Neds kicking dirt on you through blatant disregard and disrespect. This is not how any community should be treated much less us, hosts trying to earn honest money through care and hard work to have some random fucktards come through and trash what you've worked so hard for. They kicked dirt not only on your flat, but on you. And that is not OK in any way shape or form.

David
Yep, I was in tears of utter frustration this morning. I am a cleaning freak. The place is normally sparkling clean, to walk in and see this scene, was utterly distressing. Then I got really bloody angry, still am to be honest. What if that chair hurled from 3rd floor had hit someone ?

Rachel
As a fellow London host I've thought about this post pretty hard for the last little while and am going to take off IB and up my security deposit. Those are positives to come from this awful experience that David has had. Perhaps if everybody switched off IB then Airbnb would understand that the current system doesn't work and is unfair. Why should a host using IB have an advantage over other hosts in the search rankings? Why should we have to take risks with our homes just for the sake of being on page 1 rather than page 2? It's tantamount to bullying - "do things the way we prefer and we will reward you." But, as has been pointed out already, David is a well known and respected host and was "fortunate" to have the ear of Chip Conley. I doubt whether I would get the same treatment as I am sure that Chip Conley doesn't know me from a bar of soap and I would have had to accept what I was initially told by some kid in CX, but being told to "reach out" and start a bloody dialogue with some little scrote who had just trashed my house would NOT be my way forward. Something has to be done about the totally ineffective, patronising, misty eyed, worn out hippy attitude of the response team and they have to be taught that there are real people who need help quickly - not in several days time when the sun is reflecting on the correct part of whatever planet they are on. Who is going to tell them that I wonder, or do we have to wait for an actual tragedy to happen to a host.

Lisa
Like like like like!! Sing it Rachel!!!!

David
Totally appalling handling for several hours Rachel. I was on the phone for hours. The first guy didn't even know what cover I was entitled too. I apologised but said however long I was on hold I needed to speak with a manager. 'I cannot transfer you, it is different department.' So had to email. Manager was actually pretty rude. I told him this. So lacking in sympathy,and no support at all. Some hosts may feel beaten down at this stage. I was actually close to just giving up . Then I got really bloody furious and emailed Chip. 1. Why the hell are airbnb pushing IB so much? 2. Why did I have to fight the system for several hours to get any support (this happens time after time) 3. If there is this SOS team. Why cannot hosts be immediately connected when it is obvious a place has been trashed/ criminal activity has occurred. I am so exasperated and want any new hosts out there to check to ensure they have adequate security deposit set up, and know that when things go wrong airbnb is not in your corner unless you shoot loud enough . Surely that cannot be right?

Laura


This is really horrid, I am so sorry. I am glad they finally sorting it.


Laura
Plus I am taking off instant booking.

Serafina


David, I am so shocked and appalled. So sorry you have had to live through every host's nightmare. I'm glad you're getting the support you need from Airbnb now, but sheesh.

I'm wrapping up what may be my last Airbnb guests for a while. We're going on sabbatical to Germany at the end of the year, and I considered continuing to rent via Airbnb with a local caretaker during our absence. This confirms the decision not to do so. I'm currently onsite and can nip any problems in the bud, but that wouldn't be the case if I continued.


Hassen
Why not proposing what happened to David as a business case to treat in the coming Paris Open ?


Deborah



It's really bad when the host victimized by criminals like these, is "re-victimized" by a careless response team. I often think there is a lack of willingness to employ common sense. Any one of us on this forum, for instance, or actually, nearly any stranger walking down the street, is going to respond more empathetically than what you are describing happened to you. One thing that I think would help, is for Airbnb to have a customer service staff that includes at least SOME older people who've been around the block and know what to say when they hear a story like yours, instead of having to page through their employee manual to find the right script.

I can imagine how traumatic it would be, particularly for a clean freak. It's always very disturbing when people are disrespectful in our homes, even in small ways, so the gross and egregious violations can really tip you over for weeks.

But keep your chin up, this will pass. Not everyone is able to do it, but I do believe that living in or next to/nearby the property that you rent out, reduces (but does not eliminate) the risk of really egregious violations.

I'm also sorry for all the sheer work a situaiton like this involves.....but that too will pass and eventually your place will be back to normal. Take some time off, maybe? A short trip away to someplace that takes your mind off this?


Ernest
I'd be willing to put David up for a week at my place in SF. Nice idea, Deborah.

David
Wow, how incredibly kind and generous of you Ernest. I am in need of some further advice so may reach out directly if that is ok. Thank you for your support, it means a great deal.

Ernest
Of course, David. Feel free to reach out.

David
So the police are here now. Intruders broke into the apartment last night. I was awoken by 2 guys opening my bedroom door at 2am. Totally freaked out, screamed and shouted and they ran out of apartment. as I was phoning 999looked out bedroom window to see 6 individuals . They ran off when they noticed me, but police caught 3of them. One of them pointed with his hand in gun gesture, 'pop, pop'. I am totally freaked out. I have removed my profile image. My priority is to get some action from airbnb. Hosts should not have to go through this . The police now trying to link the 2 crimes. What would be your next step with airbn? Bit lost to know what to do?


David
5am UK time . No senior member from CX is,available,to assist me. Phoned - redirected to US I believe - and very nice , sympathetic front line handler. She admitted to be at a loss what to suggest ... Iam documenting all of this, so Andrew and Deborah can have a case to reference of when things go badly wrong with hosting.

Ernest
Oh, my god. This is a nightmare. Please let me know if or how I can help. Even a phone call to commiserate. We're here for you David.

Fiona
From bad to worse David. Did they have verified profiles and past reviews when they Instant Booked with you? Hopefully the police can track them down. In the best case scenario maybe these were some of the idiot revelers from the night before who didn't get the message the party was over. Stay somewhere else and be safe.


David
They were verified. I phoned airbnb prior to guest arriving as I had a bad feeling about this booking. I wanted to cancel. They said payment was secure and I would be penalised if I camčelled .but I,should have trusted,my instincts.

Deborah
This is truly horrible. David, I can't imagine how shaken up and frightened you must be! I am really glad that the police caught them...this is very serious. I can only speculate and wonder what is happening, but I think Fiona has a good possibility there, these guys are related to the others....but still this is quite serious. I hope the police get to the bottom of this. If it were me though I would feel like I needed to stay at my own home to guard it, but I would want a friend, at least one friend, to come and stay there with me. If you stay somewhere else tonight I would hire an (armed, preferably) security guard to stay in your apartment and watch over it while you're away. Preferably have someone there 24/7 until this is resolved. I dont' know that AIrbnb can do more yet -- the police are the main ones to work on this now. BUt Airbnb needs to also try to get to the bottom of this and identify these guests and work with the police. That seems to be what needs to happen.

And yes, this story is one that needs to be saved and noted, and we will save it, though for your sake David I wish it were a much more pleasant story you had to share!!

Keep us posted, we are thinking of you.


Michele Yap


Oh dear! Sorry to hear that! Hope things will turn out well!

Carrie


So sorry, David. Agree with Hassen that this would be a good case to use as a learning tool for Airbnb management. Not that it helps your situation, but it could help so many others.

Laura
This is awful. How terrifying for you. Has Airbnb offered any additional assistance?


Andrew
David, once again I'm so sorry to hear about the intrusion. As annoying as it was getting your apartment trashed, this is much more frightening. I'm sure by now you're already on top of everything (police report, changing locks, etc). But understandably you might also want to sleep somewhere else during the investigation. (Alas, all I can offer is a room in Berlin).

For future reference I'll be very interested to know how helpful Airbnb is in releasing information to the police. If they have a Verified ID on file for the guest, then either the perpetrator will be easy to find, or we'll see for once and for all that the ID Verification is a total sham.

I'm more convinced of the latter - and for the time being I would recommend that all hosts with unsupervised properties or any safety concerns disable IB.


Deborah

David: My heart goes out to you. So sorry that this happened to you. Hope things are resolved soon and you are able to once again feel some sense of peace, eventually. Take care of yourself and stay safe.

Helen

David -- this is horrifying. I'm so sorry that this has happened and grateful that you're safe. Please take care of yourself. Are all the locks changed already?


David
Thank you all for the support . So all locks are now changed! Apartment is back fully cleaned again, and just need to replace all stolen items. Unbelievably although I phoned CX in early hours of morning to relay that an intruder was in my home, NO ONE from Airbnb has called me back or checked how things are progressing. Chip C emailed me to say he had heard there had been intruders and I quote: 'So sorry you are going through all of this, David. My thoughts are with you and your safety. ' sure you mean well Chip, but that is not helping my situation at all!? Some practical support would have been nice. Oh well, did I really expect anything more from this company. No . The intrusion last night was way, way more distressing than my apartment getting trashed.

Ernest
Airbnb's overwhelming lack of support is like an intrusion all its own.

Helen
Chip C may not want to acknowledge any link between hosting and the subsequent break-in until that's been substantiated. There might be liability issues for them and this is prob the nightmare scenario for most hosts -- losing peace of mind living in your own home because of Airbnb. What updates have you received from police about the intruders? I agree with a PP -- I wonder how cooperative AirBNB will be with police in sharing records and trying to determine if these are related incidents.


Rachel
I'm trying to think this through logically. I should think that it's pretty easy for the police to link the two crimes. I am guessing that they now have the full name, address and DOB of the person who originally made the booking. That person may well not have any previous convictions but will be in the pay of some sort of organised gang - they pay him to provide keys by whatever means - and then go and raid the premises, using the key to get in. I assume that CX have provided the police with the full details of the person who originally booked but of course these may be fake anyway. Did the booker have any reviews, had he stayed anywhere else? What we need to know is exactly what sort of verification checks are really carried out by Airbnb. They aren't going to carry out full CRB checks as that would be too time consuming, but do they ever actually check whether a person has previous or not?
Can you do a screen shot of the profile of the person who made the booking and post it on to this forum and also the London Community Hosts Forum so that we know what this person looks like, to prevent any further awful incidents like this? Maybe you should try to get hold of Peter who is the moderator of the LCH forum to see if he can assist in any way.
Isn't it just grand that Chip Conley's thoughts are with you - bet that means a hell of a lot right now.


Andraleia



Thank you so much in posting this in such great detail; it's a much need reality check for us all. My awareness is heightened but my concerns have increased by what seems to be a lack of consistent protocol when CX is contacted, especially when it's not regarding a basic matter.
I completely understand what other hosts are saying about IB; it never appealed to us because there are too many what if's. Based on experience, I do think it's important to remember that the behavior of a guest isn't guaranteed no matter how they book their stay.
I couldn't begin to imagine what the last 24 hours have been like for you but hope you are feeling safer now and that this is resolved for you quickly.
Wishing you the best.

Deborah
Definitely, an intrusion such as you describe would be much more distressing than your apartment getting trashed. It sounds very scary....you must be so shaken up and disturbed!

I think one thing Airbnb could offer would be to pay for a security guard for your place for the next week or so, until police have sorted this out. That would bring peace of mind and be a helpful gesture. It sounds like a very difficult situation. Let us know how you are doing. Also let us know if the police have apprehended all those responsible.


David
Had an update from the police. The intruders last night were arrested and found to be in possession of a set of keys to this property. So the 2 incidents are now 100% linked. The guests profile has been 'quarantined ' I have been told by CX. So he cannot make any further bookings. But I just received an alert to review him, even though his profile is inactive....so surreal.


police are now communicating directly with airbnb so hopefully the actual guest will be arrested too.


Rachel
So in other words, it panned out exactly as I said it would - the booker was in cahoots with the intruders. Make sure that when you make your statement that you stress that the "guest" did not have your permission to leave with the keys. I know that seems obvious but if you don't, some smart ass defence lawyer will suggest that you too were in cahoots with them all and this was part of an insurance fraud. Trust me, 25 years of working in criminal law, and I've seen things like this before.

Andrew
Stellar advice, Rachel. David, very glad to hear that your keys have been retrieved and the intruders have been caught.

David
I cannot stress how supportive and superbly the local Islington Police have handled this case. I felt like a time waster bothering them, but they actually told me they considered it a serious offence with 'criminal intent' and because items were actually stolen. But Rachel you are so right. The main issue is I wilfully handed keys to this individual. Their story is : 'A mate hired a place for the purpose of a party. The mate told them it was ok, to have another party, so when they 'returned' and walked into my bedroom at 2am, that is what they were planning.' I believe they returned to trash the place more. Because they knew there was nothing of value left. They even stole my 2 irons and a cheap hair dryer on the first occasion. Although I was a extremely scared, looking back I am glad I was actually there to stop them, doing whatever they planned to do.' My disgust with Airbnb is growing by the minute. They have compounded my stress a million % and I have received no practical offers or any support from them yet. The individual handling my case , just emailed from California to say she will re look at my case on her return to the office on Tuesday. Thankfully I was not stabbed or worse by these intruders. But a host is going to end up severely injured one day and Airbnb sure as hell better be ready for the massive lawsuit that would surely follow . I just do not know how to deal with Airbnb, you know when your mind is just mush through lack of sleep and stress for several days. I just never, ever want another host to feel like this.

Laura
Thanks for the update. This is horrific. I bet airbnb are hoping that this story does not get out. Could encourage other people to do this to other guests. Awful.


Helen
Wow, that is so incredible that they would have the balls to return the next night (even if they weren't the same people but associates). What did they want -- a place to party or something else? Chris C and management may have an "oh sh**" moment as this will give many hosts pause about renting out their space..... David -- I would have wanted to reach out and strangle someone when I received that cheery little 24hr "leave a review for the psychopath while you still remember them!" message..... Very glad that things are progressing with the police.

Louise
You're so 'lucky' they stole those few items. If they hadn't, this could easily have remained a civil matter and the police could have declined to do anything.

This is where the requirement under the Airbnb Host Guarantee terms to contact the police is unreasonable. In your case, yes, the police could and should be involved, but in many cases in many jurisdictions it simply wouldn't be a police matter. What are hosts supposed to do then? Whose responsibility is it to document and confirm the damage/theft?

Why doesn't Airbnb have a flying squad of crisis management specialists in each of the major hosting cities? Surely the smart way to manage their reputational risk is to offer seriously aggrieved hosts a contemporaneous response?


David
Exactly Louise. In this situation, a hosts needs some practical support 'what can we do to assist you' . Changing locks for example, this has taken most of my time. And all hosts in similar situation, please think about this. The penthouse is one of 3 in a 4 storey house. I could not change the main entry lock until all occupants had been contacted, otherwise they would not be able to gain entry to their own homes. One flat, all tenants are away for weekend, so had to try to make contact with their landlord. It has been a nightmare. I have to arrange to meet them at all times of day and night to get new keys to them. They are all returning at different times, plus they are mightily p$$sed off with me for all this upset and trouble. On top of arranging al the deep cleaning, clearing the smell of smoke, vomit and urine, when they urinated in my linen cupboard. and trying to get quotes and estimates for everything. At one stage day Airbnb were telling me it all had to be done within 48hrs otherwise the security. deposit would be returned to guest! Just why are this company so appalling bad at handling crisis management?

Rachel
Absolutely right Louise, a kind of flying squad of trouble shooters is what is needed here rather than woolly thinking from thousands of miles away. As far as the offenders are concerned, if charged - and they damn well should be - they are looking at Conspiracy to Burgle, plus Criminal Damage (possibly aggravated). The good news is that if convicted they could get 5 years and if it's their third strike, much longer. However, all too often the CPS make the decision not to proceed and the case at best will get left on file. A lot of it is down to you David, and how much you want to see these little scrotes get what they deserve or whether it has all been too much already and you can't face giving live evidence at the Crown Court. If you want any more help, please feel free to email me for some advice. What a heart breaking situation this all is.


Peter


David, I have only today been through this enormous trail and I want to commend you for your sharing so freely with us all and I share others' concern for you. As I have said elsewhere it would be wrong to tar the guest community with the experience you have had but it is a sober lesson in security and more importantly for Airbnb in the need to have a squad ready to deal with the extreme event. There are some bad apples in the guest pool and there will be however hard we try to screen people. Why this thing works is that people are basically decent 99% of the time. And we all want that 99% to go up as far as it can.

My own worst experience (120 teenagers late at night) was only dirt and a few breakages - not criminality like you - but I was given a smothering of support from Airbnb which I really appreciated (3 years ago) and it all got sorted. If anyone at HQ is reading this then surely Airbnb's risk assessment should lead them to have a crack team dealing with problems of your kind both before (lots of tips on how to be careful) and after (helping the inevitable problems that arise).

I hope that the shock of intrusion on the second occasion isn't too long-lasting as that can be harder to get over than the outrage at the damage which you are repairing.

By the way you do know that Chip is talking to us in London tomorrow don't you?

All the best


David
Many thanks for your thoughts on this Peter. I raised serious concerns with Chip Conley this evening and within 30 minutes had received a phone call from one of his senior managers. Basically it seems they are going to ensure I am fully compensated. And have suggested a detailed conversation with me after the dust has settled, as I had expressed my deep dissatisfaction at how this case has been handled.

Drew
David - I'm pleased to see that airbnb is doing the right thing by you, But it all smacks of the usual band-aid approach airbnb *always* takes when a Host becomes 'that' squeaky wheel.


I could list off no less than 5 incidences such as yours (and these are just the ones publicized here/the press) where the take-away was the same:


1) IB is very flawed and does little to protect Hosts/the brand from those 1% of 'bad apples.' At the expense of sounding (overly)dramatic...will it take a Host being shot (or worse) for airbnb to finally do something about the massive security gaps inherent in IB?!;

2) CX remains woefully incompetent and lacking in an immediate/seamless/accurate/professional level 2 support staff & protocol for in-progress problem Stays, and;

3) as mentioned by Louise/others ITT, there is zero in place to provide triage for Hosts who experience this sort of traumatic Guest 'disturbance.'


Peter - in your discussion with Chip, please please please bring up this massive gap that screams to be filled in post haste. Thank you.


Peter
Will do Drew. If I were one if the VC investors I would be seriously worried about Airbnb managing incidents such as David's closely. Bad publicity can seriously dent reputation.

Drew
Thanks, Peter. Honestly, this sort of thing won't even register on the investors' radar...yet It's just not terribly germane to their objective (which is capitalizing on their investment). The investor's focus is on when airbnb is going to go out (IPO). The hiring of this new CFO from Blackstone is a sign that they are likely getting the prospectus and roadshow prepared, but until airbnb can secure the legality of their revenue model in key markets (i.e. New York, San Francisco, et al), the Street is going to make any public offering a very risky endeavor. They will still likely attract the tier 2 investors, but the big hedge funds and other institutionals (where the big money is) may just wait for the subsequent drop to jump in....if at all. What they should have done years ago was hire a senior person with rapid growth experience to serve as CEO to set up the right team to attack the legislative side (in a professional and strategic way...not the reactive manner that dug the hole they're in now) and assess internal assets to direct emphasis and attention accordingly (which would have directed more resources and priority to Hosts). As it is, we/the investors are left with a management team that has had their eye on the wrong ball. Hosts/Listings are airbnb's most (only) valuable asset and they continue to squander goodwill by operating in a vacuum and treating situations like David's with utter disregard. Once the IPO roadshow begins, the 2nd biggest risk exposed (after legislative exclusivity) will be the anemic structure of the millions of Guests. Anemic in that the vast majority are one time and out. That's not a means to sustain a business and the stock price will (eventually) bear that out.

Peter
Very well analysed. The post IPO period will be fascinating. I can hear phrases like "the once fashionable Airbnb" coming to journos' pens if the culture isn't maintained and improved.

Louise
Assembling the flying squad/triaging the response would be so easy. The services provided are almost identical to that provided by household insurers, so why not just copy the model. How hard can it be?

I say 'almost' because there are two key points of difference between Airbnb's role and the role played by an insurer who supplies a response team.

Firstly, Airbnb may have, or be perceived to have, contributed to the incident and thus the damages in that they are responsible for identity verification pre-stay etc.

Secondly, unlike your mainstream insurance company, Airbnb's reputation is much more sensitive to exterior threats and therefore a key vulnerability which could hinder their ability to both raise capital and grow their business.

Given these two points, it's astounding that Airbnb don't prioritise crisis response. There must be service providers out there who'd sell their souls to be on this team. I would have thought a request from Airbnb to be their exclusive provider of, say, locksmith or plumbing services 24/7 within a super fast response time (eg < 3 hours) with a 2 - 5 year contract would be a gift from the gods for any good second tier business wanting to move up to the next tier.


Drew
Good points. Given performance to date, I'd prefer to see airbnb identify and use specialized contractors to execute the various levels of crisis management in supporting Hosts who graciously offer greater than (phone number hidden) Listings spanning more than 34,000 cities in over 190 countries. This massive community (which also includes (phone number hidden)+ Guests) is presently 'supported' by 600 CX and trust & safety department staff.


For a company that predicates so much of its strategy on metrics, something seems very amiss in this support equation.


David
What is so frustrating is it took several emails to Chip Conley before anything happened. Then once the 2nd incident occurred, Airbnb seemed to wish to walk away from the problem. Only when I sent Chip details of the police reports and categorically confirmed that the 2 incident were linked, then I get the phone call from senior management.


1. In these cases, hosts need practical hands on support. The priorities need to be securing the property, and then the clean up. (Seeing your home trashed is worst feeling, you just want the filth and mess removing pronto)

2. How hard would it be for airbnb to say 'hey, we can sort that for you.'
3. Unbelievably even though I could no way host and had to cancel a booking (who were due in just couple hours of me discovering this nightmare) airbnb had assured me they would reach out to cancel, the guest still phoned me to check what time they could stop by to drop bags. So on top of everything else , I also had to deal with letting down a guest at very short notice. The level of insensitivity, understanding and incompetence atCX is just mind blowing.

4. The police informed me they are seeing more and more cases like this. * this is not confirmed in my case yet* but usually a stolen credit card is used to make the booking . Airbnb will not divulge this information to me, but I have asked the police to confirm.


Louise
I wonder if it's possible to add into our House Rules that the guest making the booking must turn up with photo ID and the credit card used to make the booking and only when those are sighted by the host and they match the person at the door will they be allowed into the listing.

Though, this does make remote check in difficult.


Michele Yap
I do ask confirmed guests to send me scan copies of valid IDs before check-in as it is required by the building's admin.

David
A big problem Louise is a group booking. And it is always 'whole property' bookings it seems, when the host is most likely not on site, that the fraudsters target. Airbnb admitted to me that a guest could just 'make up the names,' of the others in the group, so it must mean Airbnb are not checking at all who is really coming into our homes. So do we as hosts need to start requesting names, ID, from ALL guests?

Peter
Good point David. I will start a new thread some time about group bookings. I've got a reputation for allowing parties. I charge more in advance for the fair wear and tear they deliver. But I'll be winding down doing this because the mental hassle and cost of private security (I provide this) make it financially tight. And noisy guests can damage the Airbnb brand with neighbours.

Fiona
I require guests to send me the names and ages of all guests and I match that against id when they arrive. I have received much clucking on this forum about how "unfriendly" that is but it makes sense and it works for me.

Louise
At least if you check the name on the credit card against the name on the photo ID provided by the guest who booked you will reduce the risk of it being a stolen credit card. However that still doesn't address the issue of our places getting trashed in the first place.

Deborah
And of course, this case was much more than just a party!


Helen
Anyone get the new AirBNB policy this morning -- hosts can cancel an IB for any reason, anytime without penalty. Guests need to "sign" that they read house rules. Is there anyway this can be related to David's case? If so, I can't believe they made a policy change so quickly. Finally some action on behalf of hosts!


nathalie
do you have the airbnb link of these new rules about IB cancellation policy?

Ernest
I heard chatter about this back in May at Airbnb headquarters. I thought they were planning to launch it at the Airbnb Open.

Louise
That's ridiculous. It effectively means the end of IB. Why would anyone bother using it if they know that hosts are more likely to cancel an IB booking than a 'normal one'.


David
I phoned CX and discussed cancelling this particular booking as soon as it came through. Something set off alarm bells. I was told full payment had been received and there was no actual reason for airbnb to cancel, so I would face the usual penalties if I went ahead. I believe trashing of apartments is much more widespread than we could ever believe. One of Chip's senior team admitted as much yesterday. He said the stealing was not common, but damage and the aftermath of parties was.


Helen
host posted on another forum that they received an email about this today and was asking about it (i don't know what country or city he's in). yes -- policy would render IB useless. Thought someone here may have received an email too.


Helen
www.airbnb.com/help/article/990/how-do-the-cancellation-penalties-work


David
I did actually receive the email today. Regarding improvements to IB, but can see no mention regarding cancelling? Here is the link from the email www.airbnb.co.uk/manage-listing/3365015/instant-book?eluid=0&euid=dbb8c80c-f988-aa52-03dc-507726b9c469


Evelyn
I received the same and I don't see anywhere about canceling a guest without penalties.

Carrie
The link doesn't work for me: I get a message that says "you do not have access to this." Wonder why some got an email and some (me) didn't.

Lisa
I also received the email but no mention of cancellation without penalty.

Carrie
David - when I try to follow this link, I get a "you do not have access to this" airbnb flag across the top of the page.


Rachel
I got the email this morning, it was titled "Improvements to IB." Basically what it is saying is that hosts get increased numbers of viewings etc and also that one can cancel a booking made via IB without incurring a penalty. If you click on the "Learn more" it takes you to the cancellation policy page and you can cancel up to 3 IB bookings per year without being penalised, although cancelling more than that even for extenuating circumstances will incur the normal penalties. Useless really.


Drew
Seems that this is one of those regional rollouts as I am also not able to view the link. Does it state anything explicitly related to SH status vis-a-vis IB cancellations? If this is truly the case, this *is* a big change (albeit, again...reactionary and not strategic).


Drew
Yeah, completely reactionary as this option is not available to me (US). I just turned on IB for a second to see if anything came up and when I subsequently turned it back off, I only got a screen that highlighted the changes made 4 or so months ago. What I did find was this: www.airbnb.com/help/article/187/what-is-instant-book That last sentence really tells all, eh.

Helen
Sorry for the partial info, I was in a hurry....

Here's the relevant info in the email about improvements made to Instant Book: "If you’re uncomfortable with a guest’s behavior (before or during the trip), cancel without penalties." This is what struck me as sounding like a response to David since he immediately sensed something was wrong and wanted to cancel.

The info from the link states the more qualified specifics (this is included within the general cancellation policy info). No comment on SH status.

For Instant Book Hosts only:

Hosts who use Instant Book can cancel up to 3 times, penalty-free, if they have concerns with a guest’s behavior before or during their trip.

If you need to cancel within 24 hours of check in, contact us. Otherwise, follow the steps below:

Go to Your Reservations and find the reservation you need to cancel
Click Change or Cancel
Select “I’m uncomfortable with the guest’s behavior”
Provide a reason for the cancellation
Once you have completed these steps, your host penalties will automatically be waived and we’ll help your guest find another place to stay for their trip.

You can only use an Instant Book cancellation 3 times in one year and only for reservations that were booked through instant book.


Evelyn
Thanks for posting this because NONE of what you wrote was on my email from Airbnb and IB

Lisa
Same here Evelyn. My pal and fellow host and I have just compared the same email from Airbnb. Hers was very different to mine. She had the cancellation thingy on hers and I didn't on mine.

Helen
The biggest irony is that if David had been allowed to cancel the booking like he wanted to, AirBnB would have assisted this band of thieves find another apt to rob and trash.....


David
Thank you Helen. There was no mention of this on my link. But I did flag to Chip Conley that I had wanted to cancel pre guest arrival, and they will have that dialogue as they record all conversational *apparently*. Good job it was not another host, not wish this on anyone. And not being sexist here, but intruders entering a female hosts room at 2am could have had a much more sinister outcome. I screamed in my best 'gay man in a panic' at top of my voice and,luckily they fled and did ńot attack.

David
Do you know when Airbnb will wake up and be forced by legalisation or the collapse of their business, to finally get their house in order. When a guest or host is killed. Via a fire at a listing, or in an example like mine when a host is stabbed. All my family and friends keep saying "what if you freaked the intruders and they pulled a knife on you." Every day airbnb must think 'great, another day without a major catastrophe. " but it is going to happen, sadly. surely with such lax policies it is inevitable?


Helen
David, I totally agree there are inherent risks built into the sharing economy (AirBNB, uber) and the future of these companies will be based largely on how their liability will be legally defined. Beyond the company itself, can you imagine someone who has been sexually assaulted and who is trying to explain to a group wholly unfamiliar with AirBNB (a jury? a police officer) that they accepted money from a (male) stranger on the internet in exchange for a "room" in one's home and that this has nothing to do with the sex trade? Great questions, Ernest -- can't wait to see ideas and responses!

David
Wow Helen, seeing your statement typed out there, it really hits home doesn't it. I was actually expecting the police to be totally unsympathetic to my case, seeing that I had willingly handed over keys to these individuals. But luckily although the concept of home share and airbnb may be relatively new, I just,spoke in terms of holiday lets and they then totally understood. And they have been absolutely wonderful. Even following up with emails to check I am doing ok.

Ernest
I received the same "More Instant Book improvements, based on your feedback," email. No mention of cancellations. When I clicked on the link "Learn More," it simply took me to the Instant Book page within my listing where I can mange my settings.


Helen
scroll further down the email, below the text where there are images embedded into the email. There are various categories, including "cancel penalty-free". Does that help or is your email different?

Ernest
I can't see that in the email I received.

Lisa
Helen, I just posted above about a fellow host and I just comparing the same email. On mine there was no mention of the cancellation categorycategory and on hers it was there. Seems it was subjective email or majorlly flawed rollout. Maybe only offered to folk that have not done IB before or maybe the wind was blowing the wrong direction from the base of the servers. It's not there for a lot of us as statements on others forums point to.

Ernest
In reference to your comment as to the inevitability of an assault, David, I have had discussions about these inevitabilities countless times with others. Someday a serious crime will happen where a guest (this happened to a guest in Spain) is assaulted by a host or by another guest or when a host is assaulted by a guest. When this occurs, the questions should be:


1) Should Airbnb be held responsible or liable in some way?


2) What can Airbnb do (within reason) to protect its community from such occurrences?


3) What can a host or guest do to better protect themselves?


I don't know the answers to these questions, without more thought, although I do have some ideas. It might be nice to hear how other hosts might answer these questions.


Hassen
Don't actually need till this sort of crime happening (although happen in hotels) to answer these questions but really have to take actions to avoid from being and this could be by brain storming wherever it fits and sooner better than later

Ernest
Seems to me that Airbnb could offer full background checks and truly verified ID's and/or other more burdensome layers of protection (as an option for someone with a profile) and that hosts and guests could advertise themselves as having met these more rigorous burdens as a selling point as to why one might feel safer staying with them or having somebody host them. The costs of such verifications could be passed onto the people who opt in.

Hassen
I put all these and even more on the table and no one in Airbnb or host even dared giving it a dime

Louise
Every time you open a bank account or buy a financial product down here you have to undergo a 100 point identity check to satisfy the Anti-Money Laundering regulations. When you apply for a job at a financial institution or working with children or in any number of other industries you have to undergo a police check. This takes seconds and costs peanuts. It should be de rigueur for hosts and guests.

I have pondered the issue of Airbnb's liability in the event of an assault by a guest of a host and have concluded that it's a very nebulous concept.

It's a little easier to draw a link between Airbnb's behaviour and the host's damages in instances where it can be shown that Airbnb didn't take sufficient care when verifying the identity and credit card details and the damage sustained is largely financial. However, can Airbnb reasonably be held responsible for the behaviour of the guest once they're in your home? I think not. But ....

I believe their liability vulnerability lies in the search metric, specifically any boost in rankings for approvals.

We're still not sure what influence Approve vs Decline has on search rankings. There was that ham-fisted roll out and subsequent roll back a few months ago but no clarity on the actual impact and most of us believe that declining a Booking Request leads to a drop in the search rankings and that this impact is the same regardless of the quality of the guest we decline and the reasons for the decline.

Given this, it could be argued that Airbnb rewards people for risky behaviour and penalises them for keeping themselves safe. Couple this with the 'caring sharing', preachy website messages about 'trust and safety' etc and you could easily argue that Airbnb a) encouraged risky behaviour and b) deliberately misstated the risks.

If Airbnb ever moves to an IPO, I would expect that removing this conduit for financial and reputational risk would be a key item on the agenda for the inaugural meeting of their Governance Committee.


anna4 months ago


Goodness me David! This is everyones worst nightmare x 100. I'm appalled by Airbnb's incapacity to support you in the way they should have done, although the more I read, the more I'm not surprised. They have grown far too big, too quickly ( and without us hosts they'd be nowhere) and they do not have the right structure or expertise in place to protect those who keep their business alive.
I found this link to your horror story in another thread , where someone else had a very similar experience to yours. We will never do IB , we feel it's too big of a risk , and we also live on our property so we really like to know who is coming into our home ( of course you never REALLY know, but I've declined a few who gave me a bad vibe - and who cares about the ratings!) I can understand the attraction tho , especially if it's a main source of income.
Personally I grow more and more disillusioned and less trusting of Airbnb. If they was a better platform to use, we would , and are seriously considering setting up a separate website to advertise ourselves. Being covered by Airbnb in the event of theft, damage , accident etc has also given us a sense of security, but there are more and more cases where they have proved to be just talk, and they don't rush to help, quite the opposite. They seem more keen to protect their own reputation than the host.
I'm really sorry you have gone through such an absolute nightmare, I really hope you manage to pick up, and overcome the trauma. Your listings look lovely!


Annie


Annie17 days ago
That's so terrible I'm sorry! Makes me want to stop doing this. There's just no way to know for sure
High Priestess
Administrator
*****

High Priestess Avatar

Posts: 8,929
Gender: Both and all -- I like all the choices!
Member is Online

Aug 5, 2016 at 8:12am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by High Priestess on Aug 5, 2016 at 8:12am
David shared in SEpt 2015 on New Hosts Forum:

www.airbnb.com/groups/content/content-177215

Neighbours have requested I cease airbnb with immediate effect



Following the out of control party and theft & damage to my listing that I posted about last week, I am now hoping for some further advice.

Today I met with the other leaseholders and property owners in my block. They have been very tolerant of the numerous guests staying at my listing over the past 14 months. But enough is enough. They are very upset, and understandably so. The party was out of control, they were kept awake for 3 nights and then the intruders returning and police showing up again, has totally undermined their personal sense of security & comfort. They have also been troubled by visitors from oversees asking for directions, lots of comings and goings and as my apartment in on upper floor, they have endured a lot of additional noise - for example - guests departing for very early morning flights. And basically they do not wish for any more random strangers in the communal shared entrance / hallways.

Without making a direct threat, they made it more than clear that they would seek advice from local council if I am to continue with listing on Airbnb. Airbnb has been a generator of income for me. It is not a sideline or something I was doing for companionship. But I also 100% hear and understand their point of view.

But my question is, do you feel Airbnb could be held any way accountable for my sudden forced change in circumstances? I am going to loose a part of my revenue stream, a large part of my income , as this was a premium priced listing of a luxury penthouse. I would appreciate any thoughts and advice from the legal experts we have on this forum and also please Deborah, Andrew, veteran hosts and any host who may have faced similar situation. Thank you .



Evelyn:


I'm sorry to hear this David. Your month just keep getting worse. I totally understand about your listing being a big source of your income. I was looking at your listing and it isn't a two bedroom for you to be able to share the space with your guests.

I used the rent my entire home until my neighbors complained about my guests hanging out in the backyard until late. So I don't offer that type of listing any longer.

I'm glad you're understanding of your neighbors position. Did you ever stayed in the apartment? Or was it just for renting on Airbnb? Could you talk to your neighbors about renting for part of the month? Is this a rental unit or owned (coop/condo)?

I have heard of building associations tolerating Airbnb hosting if the host pays a higher fee for maintenance.

Lets see what other have done in situations like this.


David:
Thank you so much Evelyn for all your support. I will respond to your earlier message this evening. The apartment attracts a lot of families. The Autumn and Christmas period last year were are peak times. I have stayed there many times as used to offer just 1 room to guests . But it was not that popular. It did work well for groups of 4. I limited it to 4 with no extra beds or sofa bed, to try to minimise the impact of my neighbours. Guests loved that it had large separate living space and we were getting great bookings following a string of good reviews. The intruders and the fact keys to the main entrance door were stolen has really done it for the other residents. I totally understand, tbh I would react in same way. They just want to feel secure and safe again and not open the door to see some strangers on the stairs...

nathalie:


I agree with Evelyn and i understand your situation. Can you change your guests style. For families. Or single studznt.

nathalie:
Anybody who is safe ( families) or long term and quiet. Maybe you will have less income but your security and peacz of mind worth it.

David:
Totally agree Nathalie, no amount of money is worth the look of distress I witnessed on my neighbours' faces. They are entitled to live in peace and tranquility in their apartments. They have never once complained before, but have secretly been frustrated many times and today it was all expressed and brought into open. It is good perhaps. I always believe things happen for a reason. I am going to turn this into a positive somehow

Maria and Larry:

That is the spirit David! We are rooting for you.

Ed & Hugh:


It looks like you may have to shift do doing long term rentals only, at least until things settle down.


Stan & Maggie:


David, I have just managed to get to my desktop to be able to reply. So so sorry for your situation. Nightmare, literally! I hope things settle down soon.


David:
Thanks so much, your message means a lot to me. Really appreciate it .

Jessa:


Do you own or rent? Get to know local laws! A co-op in Stockholm went to court against a host and won but I'm guessing in your case it would never come to that... if you want peace with neighbors you will probably need some adjustments, long term renters, or renting out a room whilst on property, renting out to parties of 2 and not 4. Airbnb won't pay for any projected money losses you have calculated. They are a market place and "service" company and not much more


Sheryl :


The short answer, in my opinion is "No." AIRBNB is not responsible for your financial situation.

Here's why. When you list a space on AIRBNB, you remain responsible for following the laws in your jurisdiction. The law governs your obligations to anyone with an interest in your property. If local laws allow you to offer short term rentals in your apartment, you could be okay - - -eventually. If your neighbors initiate legal action to stop you, you will have to take the time to respond in court and lose income while you wait for a decision. If they do not take legal action but protest strongly enough, it still may be hard for you to comfortably do business.

May I suggest that you explore the possibility of sub-letting a part of your apartment to a long term tenant? That could satisfy both your need for income and the neighbors concern about the safety of their residences. And I think you should be the first one to host a holiday party in your building this year. Maybe start with some Halloween treats.


David:
Ha, ha, I like this idea Sheryl. I need to reastablish my previous good relationship with my neighbours. They have been exceptionally understanding and tolerant the past 14 months I've hosted. I really do not wish to further alienate them, so had already agreed that it will stop. They have agreed a grace period until 16th October as in that time have some verified and very well reviews guests booked. And after that the calendar is now blocked!

Deborah:

I'm so sorry to hear of your situation with your neighbors, David -- particularly as this makes more difficult an already very disturbing, frightening and possibly traumatic week for you.

I think you deserve congratulations for being empathetic to your neighbor's point of view, and the experience that they had this week as well. Just the fact that you empathize with them, will already no doubt make them feel heard and that is important going forward.

At least one person responding to your question here has a legal background, but I won't say whom, -- they can disclose it if they wish -- so you are getting some experienced advice. From what I know of the issue of seeking legal advice, even those who are attorneys are not able to give legal advice on a help forum or community forum, so we all can share our opinions and views on your questions but not issue you true legal advice.

I'd agree with Sheryl that Airbnb isn't responsible for what happened this week, in the sense of the ramifications on your future business in your building and neighborhood. What Airbnb is responsible for is managing your security deposit, the AIrbnb Host Guarantee, and the Insurance that Airbnb offers for hosts, as those apply to this situation, and from what you describe all of this should fall under the Host Guarantee and you should be getting reimbursement for all damages. Which is far more than you or any of us would get if , for instance, we were simply renting out to friends of friends or to those we had found on Craigslist or other places -- in which cases, we would only be able to be compensated with any security deposit we had held, and would have to sue the guests in court in order to try to recover more -- a difficult process, and then, even if you win in court, you very often have trouble collecting. So to have Airbnb's HOst Guarantee and Insurance is very helpful for anyone who went thru what you did.

I imagine it is a considerable and dismaying loss to see your revenue significantly diminish, essentially because of crimes that have been perpetrated against you. But as others have indicated, this doesn't have to be viewed as an all or nothing situation. I think you could salvage this business with this property by coming up with a plan that is agreeable to your neighbors. Meeting with them and getting their approval seems key. I recommend that you make concessions and take the approach Jessa and Sheryl have recommended, and see if your neighbors would be content if you only rented your place out for longer periods of time. I think that if you rented it out for 2 weeks minimum, for instance, you might be able to avoid the partiers, since people don't want to pay 2 weeks time for a one or 2-3 night party. Or if neighbors don't like that, rent it for 3 or 4 weeks minimum, or whatever it may take to get the neighbors on board. You could also come up with some possible other concessions, such as you will only rent to families with children -- perhaps neighbors will see them as unlikely to be partiers. Whatever creative ways you can come up with to make an offer to the neighbors I think would help a lot here. Just offering plans to your neighbors will I hope appease them somewhat. And then going beyond that and giving them gifts or doing what you can to "make it up" to them for the distress they too experienced should help. I am wondering, did none of them have your phone number, to be able to call you about what was happening for the 3 loud nights? All of us as hosts should be very certain that our neighbors are able to contact us about any problems they experience -- and we should be able to respond quickly -- the better to minimize things getting out of control. This of course can help us protect our property as well.

Keep us posted how things go in negotiating with the neighbors!


David:
I have blocked the calendars from 16th October and will not be continuing with airbnb here. There needs to be a period of calm, for everything to settle. Longer term tenants who are carefully screened, hopefully working professionals who like to read books and have an aversion to loud noise .

nathalie:
Airbnb's HOst Guarantee and Insurance is very helpful for anyone who went thru what you did does not work outside USA.

Ernest (josh)


I second everything Deborah said. Glad to hear you're headed for a calm period. Keep us advised as to your progress. We're all thinking of you and wishing you the best.

Fleur (fleur)


hey mate you know i think the only good thing to come out of this is i truly believe that what happened to you has caused Airbnb to change their policy re cancelling instant book without penalty (well for some people anyway). Obviously your situation has caused enough of a stir to shake things up a bit and it's really positive. I wish you all the best for your awful situation but hopefully this will not be repeated.

Andrew (andrew)
Do you have a link to the new cancellation policy for IB hosts? I don't see anything in the Help Center.

David
Andrew, a host in another group telephoned CX to seek clarification, and even they had not been informed of any new policy. Myself and many others received the email about changes to IB, but no mention of allowing cancellation. Others hosts did receive such an update and cut and paste the details stating 3 IBs could be cancelled in a year. It seems the Airbnb left foot does not know which direction the right foot is heading. Same old story really.

Stan & Maggie
My email and link say nothing about cancellations allowed!

Fiona (fiona)


Agree the top priority should be making good with the neighbours. It is unfair to other hosts to give Airbnb a bad name by not managing the rental you are being compensated for. If it was so uncomfortable to you as to re-consider renting to these people then why didn't you check in on them at all over three days of raucous partying? If I'm going to be away I have at least two points of contact daily between housekeeper/petsitter/Airbnb backup. My guests know there is someone paying attention and also that there is someone they can ask questions of if they have any. Airbnb owes you a reasonable response but not a livelihood. You are the host and need to maintain the standards and communication in your community of neighbours.


David
All my neighbours have my contact information. I had a great relationship with them. I am really not in the mood to defend myself against your accusatory comments Fiona. . I have recently been a guest myself. Look at my reviews. I try to be a respectful person who does give a great deal of thought to others. My house rules were extremely strict, the deposit,was largish, I presumed out of all my neighbours, at least one would phone me to report any issues . This is a large luxury property that could easily sleep 6 or even 8. I limited it to 4 sleeping in official bedrooms only. No sofa bed or Airbeds on the floor. I do not accept late check ins. All to limit impact on my neighbours . This is not the first time I have been appalled by your rude, insensitive comments. I have hosted hundred of airbnb guests and contributed a fair few thousand to the airbnb pot. But more importantly I have accepted many brand new 1st time airbnb guests, tried to wean them in the ways of airbnb so at least when they get to the next host, they 'get airbnb' just a touch more. Do you really think I would just have done nothing if I had any hint this was going on?

Fiona
Being defensive and mean to me doesn't change facts David. You've received nothing but support, including from me. It's But it's still not your neighbour's job to police your listing. You've made much of how you even thought of cancelling this reservation but it's odd that wasn't enough to spur you to mind it. And now this opportunistic approach that somehow it's Airbnb's responsibility. You have said multiple times you are moving away from Airbnb and even that this listing wasn't going to be on Airbnb after this weekend. But now that there's a problem, for which you have been fully compensated, all of a sudden it was a cash machine. All the other noise you put about how you accept brand new airbnb guests...so do I, so do most other hosts. It's part of hosting. But I don't just take their money and set them loose on my place.

David
I have nothing more to add Fiona. You are entitled to your opinion, and I wish you success with your hosting.

Fiona
To you as well.

Ernest
You ought to listen to her David. She's a super host with a whopping 26 reviews! I'm sure she could teach everyone here a thing or two about the "right way to do everything." Lol!

Fiona
Well, I am a Superhost, thank you. But no, I have lots to learn, otherwise I wouldn't be on these forums. Oh wait, I get it. You aren't trying to be helpful or nice, you are just sarcastic and insincere.

Deborah


Little surprised that there would be anything other than support expressed for David. He was the victim here. I appreciate the communication regarding what happened as an opportunity to learn. I think we have all had times that we did not listen to our gut. I know that I have. So sorry that this happened. I would be beyond upset had it happened to me.


Ernest
I'm sure most of us support David and feel badly for his situation. But just as though there are guests who don't play well with others...

David
Thank you so much Deborah. Of course I have regrets, but I had no comprehension anything more than, at worst - a party - may occur. In my nightmares I have considered it, but hoped a trashing of my property would never, ever come to pass. No way did i ever believe this guest would wreck such devastion, steal and trash my home. To end up scared to walk around my local streets, to be looking over my shoulder, to not dare stay alone at my own property. I will tell you this experience comes a close second to the devastion of loosing my father when I was just in my early 20s. That is how I am feeling. So to see the post that I responded to earlier today, well I am just lost for words really. This was extremely minor compared to crimes many face. And even then you see the victim question should they have taken that route, saved the cab money by walking. We all Would perhaps do things different in retrospect, but I REFUSE to feel guilty seeking full compensation from a company worth billions of $$$. Airbnb have insurance, they can cover this, and if ANYONE has a different opinion I respectfully ask them to keep it away from this thread. Because I am done with being polite about this. This was a hellish experience and the last thing anyone is going to do is make me feel worse than I already do.

David
And thank you Airbnb for the prompt tonight to leave a review for the guest who trashed my home and shook up everything. Do you REALLY think i want to see his smirking face and be reminded all over again. No thanks, I will give it a miss thank you. SURELY this guest is banned and could never be allowed to book another listing? I appreciate everything is sent automatically, but for goodness sake, surely this kind of thing could be avoided?

David
Ernest, if it was not for hosts like you, and so many others who have offered real and true support, advice and goodwill, I honestly do not think I could have made it through this past few days. To take Airbnb to task is exhausting, they are a corporate beast and it has taken hours and hours and hours to get them to finally step up and offer to compensate. NOTHING in way of practical support, but hey, did we expect anything more? A sincere thanks to you though, really it just means so much.

Deborah
Absolutely agree.

Andrew


David, I just want to address the question of compensation, which I think Sheryl answered quite accurately. There are some externalities that insurance does tend to cover aside from the damage to your home. For example, if you have to stay in a hotel for a few days because your house is unlivable during the repairs. And if you have to eat restaurant meals during those days because you don't have a kitchen. You should definitely keep track of every expense that you accrue as a direct result of this awful incident; it sounds like Airbnb is working with you there, and they're likeliest to continue to do so if you don't make demands that are out of bounds.

With that in mind, I wouldn't recommend pursuing a liability claim over lost potential income, as this one is completely unwinnable. In all likelihood, there are dozens of hosts every day (any of whom may be dependent on home-sharing income) who receive cease-and-desist orders from landlords, HOAs, or local governments, and many more who voluntarily deactivate their listings due to changes in local laws. In most of these cases, it's not even a result of a nightmare incident like yours. Airbnb's business model depends on having no legal or financial responsibility for these hosts - even ones who ultimately get evicted from their homes. That fine print in our agreement absolves them of all such responsibility.

On the bright side, you still have your home, and presumably the funds allotted to you will quickly restore it to livable condition, so you still have the means to derive some form of income from it within the boundaries agreed upon with your neighbors. Hopefully they'll be amenable to something like longer-term, supervised sublets with carefully screened guests.


David
Thanks for all the thoughts andrew . I did seek legal advice today as still some issues with airb&b . One area that they found of interest, is I did attempt to cancel this booking and CX assured me payment was secure, security deposit activated and basically 'reminded" me I would be penalised if I went that route. Now we have a possible change to this policy, the legal expert i spoke with felt airbnb could be held accountable. We will see, my head is a little all over the shop at moment, I will wait and see how airbnb respond. But basically i"m looking to put this all behind me as soon as possible .