Post by High Priestess on Sept 20, 2015 8:06:51 GMT
ANdrew shared in June 2015 on New Hosts Forum:
www.airbnb.com/groups/content/content-151634
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The Doormat Syndrome
Hi everyone, I was going to weigh in on a thread a few ticks below, involving a host who felt she was doing everything to please her guests but still getting mixed reviews. The OP appears to have deleted the thread, but I do think it's an interesting topic worth discussing, so I will copy my comment in here.¶
One thing I take a lot of pride in with this Forum is that while you can always count on our members for honest, unfiltered advice, the overall tone of the discussions here are civil and respectful. The best advice is not always the thing we wanted to hear, and there is plenty of room for disagreement here. But if any conflicts arise in the process, I expect and hope that we can all resolve them like adults, without resorting to name-calling or slurs.¶
In the past we have removed some posts that fall into that latter category. But I prefer to keep this thread live, because it brings up an interesting point that I haven't seen discussed before. As some of you have pointed out, there truly are negative consequences for hosts (or really, for people in any kind of relationship) who bend over backward too far to please. We all strive to offer guests a 5-star experience, but we also have to set clear and reasonable boundaries and insist on our hospitality being respected. When you let people walk all over you, they ultimately have less respect for you, even when they're getting everything they want. (If you've never had a guest like that, you probably have at least one ex who was).¶
I also think Airbnb is shoving the star ratings in our faces a bit much lately, and it's causing a lot of us (myself included) to fixate too much on those arbitrary figures instead of the stuff that matters. It's a deeply flawed system - everybody grades on a different curve, and much of the time people's ideas about what you could improve are wildly unrealistic at the price they pay, but Airbnb still wants us to freak out everytime we don't get 5 stars. ¶
(Too bad, they're not also pushing guests to be 5-star guests, but of course there's no money in that approach...)
Evelyn
I totally understand about the star rating system being a bit more in your face. Now that I could see the different guests rating I'm thinking of lowering my prices and changing some things as a host.
Value being an item we are reviewed on which is totally arbitrary.
Ernest
The two categories I am rated lowest are #1: value AND #2: location. From the limited input I've seen from other hosts on this topic, it seems that many hosts have experienced similar deficiencies in these two categories. Value is subjective. Each of us find value differently so I'm not as concerned about this metric as other hosts seem to be. I know that my prices are fair, reasonable and are lower than other hosts in my immediate area, not to mention FAR lower than what a guest might pay in a San Francisco hotel. I recognize that my price is not the only factor in what a guest actually pays as there are Airbnb fees and Hotel Taxes collected as well, so in the end, these fees add to a guest's value rating. Location is more troubling. I'm not convinced that this ought to be a metric rated upon by guests. After all, a guest chooses the listing themselves and has control over what location they select. My property's location is not something I can change and therefore, being rated on it seems unfair and arbitrary. The guest is shown a map prior to booking and has the opportunity to ask questions of the host should the guest be unfamiliar with the location of the listing. It seems silly that a guest might give a rating of less than five stars when he or she chose the location themselves. Any thoughts?
ANdrew:
I agree with you 100%. I'm especially frustrated with how they're handling the Value rating in light of their new Price Tips feature. The Dashboard has given me a warning that my recent guests have rated "less than 5 stars" for Value, but the Price Tips keep suggesting a much higher price than I currently list at. So if I were to take them seriously, I would have to both lower and raise the price simultaneously. It must be even more frustrating for hosts in very expensive cities like SF and NY, as they're comparing your prices to those in places where space in general is much cheaper.
Ernest
Great point on the integration of the price tips feature and how that relates to the value assessments. Airbnb sends mixed messages as though sometimes the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing.
Nathalie
I understand that location is an important criteria but as host cannot do anything , it should be appear apart from the calculation for SH status.
Bridget and Mark
The prompts for a guest for the Location category are "Is it desirable, is it safe, is it convenient", if I recall correctly. I think the only prompt should be "Was the location accurately described in the listing?"
Rachel
I think there has to be a question asked somewhere about whether the guest felt safe or not and the only logical place for it to go is in the location category. Yes they could be asked whether the location was accurately described in the listing but then I wonder what questions they are asked to gauge the accuracy rating as that is separate from location. I have never booked as a guest so I just don't know what questions they are asked. But yes, location is an arbitrary issue as Ernest says. I get over 90% for location but two hosts in the same small area - just a street away from me - have not. It's ridiculous. Their guests and my guests walk the same distance to the same bus stop to travel to the same tube station and yet there is such a discrepancy.
Evelyn:
I was reviewed in the flip key platform 3 stars because my location. I'm in Brooklyn, I don't hide it. I wasn't happy about it. And I notice it now on my ratings breakdown the location ding. I think I'm making my location one of my "two" things guests don't like.
David
The best thing that ever happened for me was loosing Superhost status. I decided there and then that I am doing this for a. the cash. b. to offer each and every guest the best service I can. BUT I was am longer prepared to jump through hoops for Airbnb to obtain a 'badge.' Bookings are up, reviews are still good, but now the pressure is off; a threat of a negative review just does not worry me. This means I can take issue with rude guests, not be a total doormat or allow entitled individuals to try to treat my home like a hotel. Last week I told one guest she was exceptionally rude, knowing full well I risked receiving a very bad review. But the next morning she apologised, left a nice note & chocolates at checkout and followed with a good review. I just try to remember, we are treated the way we allow others to treat us . Worry about the star ratings you can control like cleanliness, but do not worry about things such as 'value' because as long as you research and your rate is fair and competitive, that is all you can do. Accept it will never be enough for some guests, even at £5 per night.
CC
C C8 months ago
Ok i have to know--sorry--i want to "like" people's comments to posts. How come sometimes I can & sometimes I can't!? Where's the like thing?
Julie and Eric
8 months ago
You can like comments (second level) on posts (top level) but there is no "like" for comments to replies (third level).
Jeannette
Standing O.
Andrew:
YES!
Nathalie
I just rented a hotel room in the usa (fligh arrive at 1am and considering the reaction about very early check in , hotel seems the righ option). Well, none have 5 stars but plenty of bookings. So there is a life when you do not have 5 stars. And when i saw some reviews (ex dirty, worst ever etc). Hey , what do you expect for 60 usd ? The Ritz hotel?
Deborah:
I'd also like to tag on -- regarding the thread that the Original Poster or OP deleted --( after which the OP also decided to leave the forum.)
For anyone who participated in it or who didn't read it -- a forum member asked for advice regarding getting star ratings lower than those she expected or thought fair. In the ensuing conversation, the Original Poster did not like some of the comments that were made. There were some criticisms, that were direct and pointblank, perhaps a bit harsh, but not in my estimation really uncivil, and then followed some name calling. I had commented on that post that when any of us post questions or ask for advice on this forum, we have to realize that we may not like all the advice or responses we receive. We have overall been quite impressed at the maturity, civil tone and presentation of forum members, how generous and helpful and good natured forum members are with each other on a very regular basis. Yet sometimes someone will say something that we dont' find helpful or we feel hurt by or which seems overcritical. In cases like that we encourage everyone to do their best to remain civil in the discussion, and if you feel someone has transgressed the forum rules or engaged in name-calling or incivility, and feel you need help, contact Andrew or I and we will attempt to mediate the situation. But for the most part I've been impressed how little moderation is actually needed on this forum because members are able to handle differences of opinion themselves.
So I will chime in and again emphasize that it is not appropriate in any circumstances to resort to name-calling on this or any other forum -- we should not be calling other forum members "troll" or "loser" or meathead or stupid or anything like that. If you feel tempted to name-calling, take a break and come back to the situation or contact Andrew or I for help. Everyone makes mistakes though, and some conversations have really benefitted when a commenter admitted they made a mistake. I think many of us look forward to the point when forum members will all have the ability to edit or delete their own comments, that way we can take care of those things that we say in the heat of the moment and then regret saying.
Susan
Thank you. I was most uncomfortable with the OF (Offending Thread). One reason is that I think Louise is one of the most articulate and thoughtful posters I read. Yes, she can be blunt....get over it...the advice is worth it. Second is that although I don't expect any public forum to be a sanctuary, if the dialog degenerates to snarling back biting BS, we will all lose a very valuable resource as posters fear participation and just avoid the negativity. My two cents.
Rebecca:
Agree wholeheartedly. Would add that indulging attention-seeking behaviour is also damaging to a healthy exchange.
RacheL:
It was me that reported a totally vile comment that had been made by the OP on that forum as it directly and personally threatened another host living in the same country. It did not threaten me but I feared for the other host's safety.
Anyway, to get back to the topic in hand, I do agree that something does need to be done to stop this fear of not getting a whole string of 5 star reviews all the time. It's almost a form of bullying - if you don't constantly pull rabbits out of hats you don't get priority listing blah blah. I always try to treat my guests as I would wish to be treated if I were staying in their home and try to just make them feel that they are welcome and not intruders. It seems to have worked so far but I am miffed that my only real blip is on cleanliness. I live in a house which is over 100 years old and quite big. I almost literally stand on my head to make sure that there is no rogue dust under the bed (it's wooden floor), I scrub the bathroom like a mad woman, I clean inside the chest of drawers, I fish nasty bits and bobs out of the shower plug hole but still I am on 4.5 stars. With an old house dust just appears! Perhaps I should adopt the view stated by Quentin Crisp - "dust doesn't get any worse after 3 years."
Andrew:
I'm sorry you were the recipient of such a vile message, especially after you contributed some very thoughtful advice. We don't accept that kind of behavior here, lest the forum degenerate into something like YouTube comments. As for the Cleanliness issue. I noticed that when I use to sublet the whole flat, I would always get 5 stars, but my Private Listing gets 5 stars only 51% of the time. My cleaning standards for guest areas are the same, one way or other, but when my husband and I are home, the place is in constant dynamic use, so not every surface can sparkle all the time.
Nathalie:
your description of cleanliness is so similar to what i live. At least, we are 2. Including the man reading in the toilets (but Paris Match , not rugby).
Rebecca:
The one thing I don't mind getting less than 5 stars is cleanliness. I know that might sound strange to some but honestly I don't want clean freaks staying here - like you, it's a an old house and very busy with two guest rooms and my incredibly untidy son, plus I have a cat. It's never going to be sparkling clean all the time. So I'm ok with 4.5, in fact I'm amazed I even get that.
Nic and Rach
I received a message from the thread and threatening to kill her herself.. and I hope she doesn't mean it. Hi Nic and Rach, Check out the new comment posted to How do I boost my ratings?: I'm going to kill myself Reply (phone number hidden):33:39 +0000
Deborah
Nic-- as well as stating publicly on her original post that she was thinking of killing herself, the Original Poster of the thread in question also sent me three different emails in which she stated she would be killing herself. Such a statement is a serious thing, so Andrew and I took this seriously and we contacted Airbnb staff and reported the situation in order for the OP to obtain the needed support and help, and my understanding from the Airbnb contact person was that Airbnb took action on the issue immediately.
James:
Regarding the 'Location' five stars - perhaps we should just ask Air BnB what constitutes a five star listing?
It might look something like this:
- Near the airport but quiet
- Charming rural setting, right in the city centre
- Peaceful residential area, teeming with night life
- Stunning countryside surrounded by convenience stores
- Right by the beach, next to the ski slopes
- Tucked away and easy to find
- Off the beaten track but on it
- Mountain retreat with good public transport links
- 100% child safe location, i.e. no roads, canals, railways, snakes, bees, buildings, trees, other people, matches, cutlery, internet, vehicles, weather conditions, hedgehogs, clingfilm dispensers, pollen, swimming pools, bacteria, gravity, fast-food outlets, lost toys, etc
Rebecca:
Hilarious!! You're funny. It's been a while since I used Airbnb as a guest so I can't remember the prompt when reviewing Location. But I seem to remember it was more about the general area around the listing, ie. the neighbourhood, rather than the actual location in terms of city centre etc. Maybe Neighbourhood would be a better descriptor? But then that opens up a whole other can of worms.....
RacheL:
Oh wonderful! The one thing you didn't mention was foxes. Guests are either thrilled or terrified when the urban fox decides to pay a visit - in fact they wander around after dark like they own the street and then make ear splitting noises when they decide to mate in the back garden or on top of the shed roof (foxes I mean, not guests). We've got more wildlife than the Serengeti around here some nights.
Fleur:
Oh Rachel a bloody fox came and stole my chickens the other afternoon! Fox man has gone and dealt with him now. They are feral pests here and we kill them but I would love to see one in its natural habitat. They decimate our wildlife, they kill snakes, wallabies, birds and even bats so not welcome here at all (some idiot imported them years ago for hunting)
Deborah:
I'd like to also echo what was said above regarding the "doormat syndrome" which was something brought up in the original post, that I agree was spot-on. She suggested that hosts who behave as doormats with their guests, may end up earning the contempt of their guests. Great point, Louise. This is something that as Andrew pointed out, has not been sufficiently discussed on the forums -- I don't think I've seen the topic arise, and its' a valuable one. We've certainly discussed how hosts who give too much to guests can end up priming those guests to expect more and more and more. The "give an inch and they;ll take a mile" phenomenon. ANd the entitled guest phenomenon, guests who simply demand more and more services, and the hosts who don't have the good judgement to draw boundaries, and end up caving into those demands, which simply sets them up as easy to manipulate into following more guest "commands" ....like a well trained dog? Guest tells them to jump and host says "how high"...not good!
But the issue of guests actually starting to feel contemptuous of hosts who do too much, perhaps to the point of appearing servile, is a more subtle issue and valuable to point out. Hosts can actually debase themselves this way, without realizing it, and guests can then react to that in a negative way, perhaps starting to pile on abuse to someone who seems to be abusing themselves.
So, quite ironically, the host who does much too much is not only not helping the guest, they could be diminishing themselves as well as setting the foundation for a negative situation between themselves and the guest.
Rebecca:
Very interesting point indeed. Not just for hosting but life in general! How often have we seen hosts say that the guests for whom they did the most left either a tepid review or no review at all? That's certainly been my experience. I am much more circumspect now over what extras I will do for people.
RacheL:
So true. It is so easy to get sucked in to providing too much. I had never cooked an evening meal for any guest until last night but my poor guest was so worn out with travelling, her feet were swollen up, she's about my age and I just didn't have the heart to send her out to find food. It was only spag bol and a salad but she was incredibly grateful, and she knew it was a one off. The only two guests I have ever declined both expected me to pick them up from Heathrow airport and I am simply not prepared to do that. The tube connection is easy anyway. I'm not prepared to put my own life on hold to get good reviews.
Anna:
The other drawback to going over and above a guests expectations is they are so pleased, they write it in the review. For example we had Chinese students who literally would not have got off the island before Christmas had we not taken them to the airport, as the weather was so bad the ferry was cancelled. This led the review " our hosts took us wherever we wanted" Not something we want to advertise! Also someone was very grateful for the use of our kitchen and living room, ( we really don't mind the sharing of our space but most have a good balance, or don't use it at all) This guest's review made
ANna:
it sound like we welcome use of our whole home and while we don't mind, we don't want that to become the norm either.
Rebecca
Whenever I do a special favour for a guest, either because I like them or it was an exceptional situation, I always say to them 'Please do NOT mention this is the review!' It's mostly worked although occasionaly resulted in no review at all ! Whatever. I'd rather no review than one, as you say, mentions something that you don't normally offer.
Evelyn
I do the same thing. If I allow a guest to use my washing machine or I share a meal with them. I let them know to please not write it in the review. Which also lets them know they're special.
Nancy:
I wanted to comment even though I'm pretty new. When I decided to do this I felt very strongly that I would only offer what felt good to me. I know me and my place are not for everyone. And I'm okay with that. There are plenty of other options in my area.
For example I love 1 night guest stays. I know it's extra work but I love preparing the space for the next guest. I mean I really love it (I had no idea that I would feel this way)! So the more I get to do that the better I feel about doing this. I know that is not how other hosts see it. So we all have something unique to offer, as unique as our guest are.
I had a corporate friend ask if I had a goal for how many days to have booked each month to make Airbnb successful. Typical corporate approach. I realized although my day job is corporate that I am thoroughly enjoying that Airbnb is about what I want. So I told him that my only goal is to do my best to provide a clean, peaceful, positive space for guests and that I have the amount of bookings that keep this as a positive experience for me and for my guests. It's that saying that if you do what you love the money will follow. So I'll do this as long as I love it. He was confused with my answer!
Julie:
As a child I used to play innkeeper in my grandparents' house. I would dream of owning a B&B. Being a host has let me play out these fantasies in real life and like you, I love getting the space ready for a guest to arrive. My boss asked me how much it contributed to my income and I kind of skirted the question by saying it pays the bills while it actually did a bit more than that – she seemed very confused and asked me why I even did it. She just didn't understand.
Nic and Rach:
I am also in that OP and made a comment.. and I am so glad that you guys kept me and didn't kick me out. It' was all a Ladies forum and I was the only Gent... but I thought that exchange of comments was manageable, I didn't like the name calling until it got worse... Sorry.. I didn't know what to do..and I apologise for all the ladies.,, in behalf of the OP.
Rebecca:
I read your post and it was very generous and thoughtful . I didn't see how bad it got afterwards. But I don't think gender has anything to do with it! Best draw a line under it now I guess.
C C:
I'm glad it's being taken seriously, Deborah. I wonder if she has parents helping her.
Fiona:
She has mentioned a mother before who is also an Airbnb host. Maybe Airbnb can get in contact with her too. Deborah, I saw the Original Post and several of the comments and felt some people were really out of line and uncivil in their response. I know you don't feel the same. I didn't see anything from the OP that was threatening to herself or others before she took it down so I don't have that perspective but just wanted to give you a pat on the back for the way you and Andrew handled it. You say elsewhere she sent you a nasty email and that was wrong. But you still showed the sense and the decency to reach out and get her some help.
nathalie:
From another she lost her job and she really need airbnb income to pay the rent. And it seems that some girls talked her badly on an _________ forum not as well supervised than this one. When you are alone, it is not an easy situations. And bad manners on forum already lead to depression or suicide.
Linda:
Have I been kicked out of the group?
Andrew:
You're still in the group and we're happy to have you!
CC:
Hi,. I see you sitting there....
Anna:
Thanks for that advice, simple - I don't know why I didn't think of that earlier, to ak guests not to mention something, that we don't normally offer. We did have guests who were very discrete and just sent us a private message thanking us for having their dog ( we don't usually accept dogs at all but they had an extremely well behaved Lab ) I was glad they hadn't put that in the public review, so from now on I will mention to guests to keep things " outside the box" just for our eyes !
www.airbnb.com/groups/content/content-151634
]
The Doormat Syndrome
Hi everyone, I was going to weigh in on a thread a few ticks below, involving a host who felt she was doing everything to please her guests but still getting mixed reviews. The OP appears to have deleted the thread, but I do think it's an interesting topic worth discussing, so I will copy my comment in here.¶
One thing I take a lot of pride in with this Forum is that while you can always count on our members for honest, unfiltered advice, the overall tone of the discussions here are civil and respectful. The best advice is not always the thing we wanted to hear, and there is plenty of room for disagreement here. But if any conflicts arise in the process, I expect and hope that we can all resolve them like adults, without resorting to name-calling or slurs.¶
In the past we have removed some posts that fall into that latter category. But I prefer to keep this thread live, because it brings up an interesting point that I haven't seen discussed before. As some of you have pointed out, there truly are negative consequences for hosts (or really, for people in any kind of relationship) who bend over backward too far to please. We all strive to offer guests a 5-star experience, but we also have to set clear and reasonable boundaries and insist on our hospitality being respected. When you let people walk all over you, they ultimately have less respect for you, even when they're getting everything they want. (If you've never had a guest like that, you probably have at least one ex who was).¶
I also think Airbnb is shoving the star ratings in our faces a bit much lately, and it's causing a lot of us (myself included) to fixate too much on those arbitrary figures instead of the stuff that matters. It's a deeply flawed system - everybody grades on a different curve, and much of the time people's ideas about what you could improve are wildly unrealistic at the price they pay, but Airbnb still wants us to freak out everytime we don't get 5 stars. ¶
(Too bad, they're not also pushing guests to be 5-star guests, but of course there's no money in that approach...)
Evelyn
I totally understand about the star rating system being a bit more in your face. Now that I could see the different guests rating I'm thinking of lowering my prices and changing some things as a host.
Value being an item we are reviewed on which is totally arbitrary.
Ernest
The two categories I am rated lowest are #1: value AND #2: location. From the limited input I've seen from other hosts on this topic, it seems that many hosts have experienced similar deficiencies in these two categories. Value is subjective. Each of us find value differently so I'm not as concerned about this metric as other hosts seem to be. I know that my prices are fair, reasonable and are lower than other hosts in my immediate area, not to mention FAR lower than what a guest might pay in a San Francisco hotel. I recognize that my price is not the only factor in what a guest actually pays as there are Airbnb fees and Hotel Taxes collected as well, so in the end, these fees add to a guest's value rating. Location is more troubling. I'm not convinced that this ought to be a metric rated upon by guests. After all, a guest chooses the listing themselves and has control over what location they select. My property's location is not something I can change and therefore, being rated on it seems unfair and arbitrary. The guest is shown a map prior to booking and has the opportunity to ask questions of the host should the guest be unfamiliar with the location of the listing. It seems silly that a guest might give a rating of less than five stars when he or she chose the location themselves. Any thoughts?
ANdrew:
I agree with you 100%. I'm especially frustrated with how they're handling the Value rating in light of their new Price Tips feature. The Dashboard has given me a warning that my recent guests have rated "less than 5 stars" for Value, but the Price Tips keep suggesting a much higher price than I currently list at. So if I were to take them seriously, I would have to both lower and raise the price simultaneously. It must be even more frustrating for hosts in very expensive cities like SF and NY, as they're comparing your prices to those in places where space in general is much cheaper.
Ernest
Great point on the integration of the price tips feature and how that relates to the value assessments. Airbnb sends mixed messages as though sometimes the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing.
Nathalie
I understand that location is an important criteria but as host cannot do anything , it should be appear apart from the calculation for SH status.
Bridget and Mark
The prompts for a guest for the Location category are "Is it desirable, is it safe, is it convenient", if I recall correctly. I think the only prompt should be "Was the location accurately described in the listing?"
Rachel
I think there has to be a question asked somewhere about whether the guest felt safe or not and the only logical place for it to go is in the location category. Yes they could be asked whether the location was accurately described in the listing but then I wonder what questions they are asked to gauge the accuracy rating as that is separate from location. I have never booked as a guest so I just don't know what questions they are asked. But yes, location is an arbitrary issue as Ernest says. I get over 90% for location but two hosts in the same small area - just a street away from me - have not. It's ridiculous. Their guests and my guests walk the same distance to the same bus stop to travel to the same tube station and yet there is such a discrepancy.
Evelyn:
I was reviewed in the flip key platform 3 stars because my location. I'm in Brooklyn, I don't hide it. I wasn't happy about it. And I notice it now on my ratings breakdown the location ding. I think I'm making my location one of my "two" things guests don't like.
David
The best thing that ever happened for me was loosing Superhost status. I decided there and then that I am doing this for a. the cash. b. to offer each and every guest the best service I can. BUT I was am longer prepared to jump through hoops for Airbnb to obtain a 'badge.' Bookings are up, reviews are still good, but now the pressure is off; a threat of a negative review just does not worry me. This means I can take issue with rude guests, not be a total doormat or allow entitled individuals to try to treat my home like a hotel. Last week I told one guest she was exceptionally rude, knowing full well I risked receiving a very bad review. But the next morning she apologised, left a nice note & chocolates at checkout and followed with a good review. I just try to remember, we are treated the way we allow others to treat us . Worry about the star ratings you can control like cleanliness, but do not worry about things such as 'value' because as long as you research and your rate is fair and competitive, that is all you can do. Accept it will never be enough for some guests, even at £5 per night.
CC
C C8 months ago
Ok i have to know--sorry--i want to "like" people's comments to posts. How come sometimes I can & sometimes I can't!? Where's the like thing?
Julie and Eric
8 months ago
You can like comments (second level) on posts (top level) but there is no "like" for comments to replies (third level).
Jeannette
Standing O.
Andrew:
YES!
Nathalie
I just rented a hotel room in the usa (fligh arrive at 1am and considering the reaction about very early check in , hotel seems the righ option). Well, none have 5 stars but plenty of bookings. So there is a life when you do not have 5 stars. And when i saw some reviews (ex dirty, worst ever etc). Hey , what do you expect for 60 usd ? The Ritz hotel?
Deborah:
I'd also like to tag on -- regarding the thread that the Original Poster or OP deleted --( after which the OP also decided to leave the forum.)
For anyone who participated in it or who didn't read it -- a forum member asked for advice regarding getting star ratings lower than those she expected or thought fair. In the ensuing conversation, the Original Poster did not like some of the comments that were made. There were some criticisms, that were direct and pointblank, perhaps a bit harsh, but not in my estimation really uncivil, and then followed some name calling. I had commented on that post that when any of us post questions or ask for advice on this forum, we have to realize that we may not like all the advice or responses we receive. We have overall been quite impressed at the maturity, civil tone and presentation of forum members, how generous and helpful and good natured forum members are with each other on a very regular basis. Yet sometimes someone will say something that we dont' find helpful or we feel hurt by or which seems overcritical. In cases like that we encourage everyone to do their best to remain civil in the discussion, and if you feel someone has transgressed the forum rules or engaged in name-calling or incivility, and feel you need help, contact Andrew or I and we will attempt to mediate the situation. But for the most part I've been impressed how little moderation is actually needed on this forum because members are able to handle differences of opinion themselves.
So I will chime in and again emphasize that it is not appropriate in any circumstances to resort to name-calling on this or any other forum -- we should not be calling other forum members "troll" or "loser" or meathead or stupid or anything like that. If you feel tempted to name-calling, take a break and come back to the situation or contact Andrew or I for help. Everyone makes mistakes though, and some conversations have really benefitted when a commenter admitted they made a mistake. I think many of us look forward to the point when forum members will all have the ability to edit or delete their own comments, that way we can take care of those things that we say in the heat of the moment and then regret saying.
Susan
Thank you. I was most uncomfortable with the OF (Offending Thread). One reason is that I think Louise is one of the most articulate and thoughtful posters I read. Yes, she can be blunt....get over it...the advice is worth it. Second is that although I don't expect any public forum to be a sanctuary, if the dialog degenerates to snarling back biting BS, we will all lose a very valuable resource as posters fear participation and just avoid the negativity. My two cents.
Rebecca:
Agree wholeheartedly. Would add that indulging attention-seeking behaviour is also damaging to a healthy exchange.
RacheL:
It was me that reported a totally vile comment that had been made by the OP on that forum as it directly and personally threatened another host living in the same country. It did not threaten me but I feared for the other host's safety.
Anyway, to get back to the topic in hand, I do agree that something does need to be done to stop this fear of not getting a whole string of 5 star reviews all the time. It's almost a form of bullying - if you don't constantly pull rabbits out of hats you don't get priority listing blah blah. I always try to treat my guests as I would wish to be treated if I were staying in their home and try to just make them feel that they are welcome and not intruders. It seems to have worked so far but I am miffed that my only real blip is on cleanliness. I live in a house which is over 100 years old and quite big. I almost literally stand on my head to make sure that there is no rogue dust under the bed (it's wooden floor), I scrub the bathroom like a mad woman, I clean inside the chest of drawers, I fish nasty bits and bobs out of the shower plug hole but still I am on 4.5 stars. With an old house dust just appears! Perhaps I should adopt the view stated by Quentin Crisp - "dust doesn't get any worse after 3 years."
Andrew:
I'm sorry you were the recipient of such a vile message, especially after you contributed some very thoughtful advice. We don't accept that kind of behavior here, lest the forum degenerate into something like YouTube comments. As for the Cleanliness issue. I noticed that when I use to sublet the whole flat, I would always get 5 stars, but my Private Listing gets 5 stars only 51% of the time. My cleaning standards for guest areas are the same, one way or other, but when my husband and I are home, the place is in constant dynamic use, so not every surface can sparkle all the time.
Nathalie:
your description of cleanliness is so similar to what i live. At least, we are 2. Including the man reading in the toilets (but Paris Match , not rugby).
Rebecca:
The one thing I don't mind getting less than 5 stars is cleanliness. I know that might sound strange to some but honestly I don't want clean freaks staying here - like you, it's a an old house and very busy with two guest rooms and my incredibly untidy son, plus I have a cat. It's never going to be sparkling clean all the time. So I'm ok with 4.5, in fact I'm amazed I even get that.
Nic and Rach
I received a message from the thread and threatening to kill her herself.. and I hope she doesn't mean it. Hi Nic and Rach, Check out the new comment posted to How do I boost my ratings?: I'm going to kill myself Reply (phone number hidden):33:39 +0000
Deborah
Nic-- as well as stating publicly on her original post that she was thinking of killing herself, the Original Poster of the thread in question also sent me three different emails in which she stated she would be killing herself. Such a statement is a serious thing, so Andrew and I took this seriously and we contacted Airbnb staff and reported the situation in order for the OP to obtain the needed support and help, and my understanding from the Airbnb contact person was that Airbnb took action on the issue immediately.
James:
Regarding the 'Location' five stars - perhaps we should just ask Air BnB what constitutes a five star listing?
It might look something like this:
- Near the airport but quiet
- Charming rural setting, right in the city centre
- Peaceful residential area, teeming with night life
- Stunning countryside surrounded by convenience stores
- Right by the beach, next to the ski slopes
- Tucked away and easy to find
- Off the beaten track but on it
- Mountain retreat with good public transport links
- 100% child safe location, i.e. no roads, canals, railways, snakes, bees, buildings, trees, other people, matches, cutlery, internet, vehicles, weather conditions, hedgehogs, clingfilm dispensers, pollen, swimming pools, bacteria, gravity, fast-food outlets, lost toys, etc
Rebecca:
Hilarious!! You're funny. It's been a while since I used Airbnb as a guest so I can't remember the prompt when reviewing Location. But I seem to remember it was more about the general area around the listing, ie. the neighbourhood, rather than the actual location in terms of city centre etc. Maybe Neighbourhood would be a better descriptor? But then that opens up a whole other can of worms.....
RacheL:
Oh wonderful! The one thing you didn't mention was foxes. Guests are either thrilled or terrified when the urban fox decides to pay a visit - in fact they wander around after dark like they own the street and then make ear splitting noises when they decide to mate in the back garden or on top of the shed roof (foxes I mean, not guests). We've got more wildlife than the Serengeti around here some nights.
Fleur:
Oh Rachel a bloody fox came and stole my chickens the other afternoon! Fox man has gone and dealt with him now. They are feral pests here and we kill them but I would love to see one in its natural habitat. They decimate our wildlife, they kill snakes, wallabies, birds and even bats so not welcome here at all (some idiot imported them years ago for hunting)
Deborah:
I'd like to also echo what was said above regarding the "doormat syndrome" which was something brought up in the original post, that I agree was spot-on. She suggested that hosts who behave as doormats with their guests, may end up earning the contempt of their guests. Great point, Louise. This is something that as Andrew pointed out, has not been sufficiently discussed on the forums -- I don't think I've seen the topic arise, and its' a valuable one. We've certainly discussed how hosts who give too much to guests can end up priming those guests to expect more and more and more. The "give an inch and they;ll take a mile" phenomenon. ANd the entitled guest phenomenon, guests who simply demand more and more services, and the hosts who don't have the good judgement to draw boundaries, and end up caving into those demands, which simply sets them up as easy to manipulate into following more guest "commands" ....like a well trained dog? Guest tells them to jump and host says "how high"...not good!
But the issue of guests actually starting to feel contemptuous of hosts who do too much, perhaps to the point of appearing servile, is a more subtle issue and valuable to point out. Hosts can actually debase themselves this way, without realizing it, and guests can then react to that in a negative way, perhaps starting to pile on abuse to someone who seems to be abusing themselves.
So, quite ironically, the host who does much too much is not only not helping the guest, they could be diminishing themselves as well as setting the foundation for a negative situation between themselves and the guest.
Rebecca:
Very interesting point indeed. Not just for hosting but life in general! How often have we seen hosts say that the guests for whom they did the most left either a tepid review or no review at all? That's certainly been my experience. I am much more circumspect now over what extras I will do for people.
RacheL:
So true. It is so easy to get sucked in to providing too much. I had never cooked an evening meal for any guest until last night but my poor guest was so worn out with travelling, her feet were swollen up, she's about my age and I just didn't have the heart to send her out to find food. It was only spag bol and a salad but she was incredibly grateful, and she knew it was a one off. The only two guests I have ever declined both expected me to pick them up from Heathrow airport and I am simply not prepared to do that. The tube connection is easy anyway. I'm not prepared to put my own life on hold to get good reviews.
Anna:
The other drawback to going over and above a guests expectations is they are so pleased, they write it in the review. For example we had Chinese students who literally would not have got off the island before Christmas had we not taken them to the airport, as the weather was so bad the ferry was cancelled. This led the review " our hosts took us wherever we wanted" Not something we want to advertise! Also someone was very grateful for the use of our kitchen and living room, ( we really don't mind the sharing of our space but most have a good balance, or don't use it at all) This guest's review made
ANna:
it sound like we welcome use of our whole home and while we don't mind, we don't want that to become the norm either.
Rebecca
Whenever I do a special favour for a guest, either because I like them or it was an exceptional situation, I always say to them 'Please do NOT mention this is the review!' It's mostly worked although occasionaly resulted in no review at all ! Whatever. I'd rather no review than one, as you say, mentions something that you don't normally offer.
Evelyn
I do the same thing. If I allow a guest to use my washing machine or I share a meal with them. I let them know to please not write it in the review. Which also lets them know they're special.
Nancy:
I wanted to comment even though I'm pretty new. When I decided to do this I felt very strongly that I would only offer what felt good to me. I know me and my place are not for everyone. And I'm okay with that. There are plenty of other options in my area.
For example I love 1 night guest stays. I know it's extra work but I love preparing the space for the next guest. I mean I really love it (I had no idea that I would feel this way)! So the more I get to do that the better I feel about doing this. I know that is not how other hosts see it. So we all have something unique to offer, as unique as our guest are.
I had a corporate friend ask if I had a goal for how many days to have booked each month to make Airbnb successful. Typical corporate approach. I realized although my day job is corporate that I am thoroughly enjoying that Airbnb is about what I want. So I told him that my only goal is to do my best to provide a clean, peaceful, positive space for guests and that I have the amount of bookings that keep this as a positive experience for me and for my guests. It's that saying that if you do what you love the money will follow. So I'll do this as long as I love it. He was confused with my answer!
Julie:
As a child I used to play innkeeper in my grandparents' house. I would dream of owning a B&B. Being a host has let me play out these fantasies in real life and like you, I love getting the space ready for a guest to arrive. My boss asked me how much it contributed to my income and I kind of skirted the question by saying it pays the bills while it actually did a bit more than that – she seemed very confused and asked me why I even did it. She just didn't understand.
Nic and Rach:
I am also in that OP and made a comment.. and I am so glad that you guys kept me and didn't kick me out. It' was all a Ladies forum and I was the only Gent... but I thought that exchange of comments was manageable, I didn't like the name calling until it got worse... Sorry.. I didn't know what to do..and I apologise for all the ladies.,, in behalf of the OP.
Rebecca:
I read your post and it was very generous and thoughtful . I didn't see how bad it got afterwards. But I don't think gender has anything to do with it! Best draw a line under it now I guess.
C C:
I'm glad it's being taken seriously, Deborah. I wonder if she has parents helping her.
Fiona:
She has mentioned a mother before who is also an Airbnb host. Maybe Airbnb can get in contact with her too. Deborah, I saw the Original Post and several of the comments and felt some people were really out of line and uncivil in their response. I know you don't feel the same. I didn't see anything from the OP that was threatening to herself or others before she took it down so I don't have that perspective but just wanted to give you a pat on the back for the way you and Andrew handled it. You say elsewhere she sent you a nasty email and that was wrong. But you still showed the sense and the decency to reach out and get her some help.
nathalie:
From another she lost her job and she really need airbnb income to pay the rent. And it seems that some girls talked her badly on an _________ forum not as well supervised than this one. When you are alone, it is not an easy situations. And bad manners on forum already lead to depression or suicide.
Linda:
Have I been kicked out of the group?
Andrew:
You're still in the group and we're happy to have you!
CC:
Hi,. I see you sitting there....
Anna:
Thanks for that advice, simple - I don't know why I didn't think of that earlier, to ak guests not to mention something, that we don't normally offer. We did have guests who were very discrete and just sent us a private message thanking us for having their dog ( we don't usually accept dogs at all but they had an extremely well behaved Lab ) I was glad they hadn't put that in the public review, so from now on I will mention to guests to keep things " outside the box" just for our eyes !
