Post by High Priestess on Sept 25, 2015 2:57:15 GMT
Renters -- Tenant Hosts?
I'm curious how many of you are renters? I live in a high rise, recognizable on sight. I reviewed my lease (I'm an attorney) and hosting doesn't appear to be prohibited. But I don't know how my landlord will respond if they figure it out. I'm not seeing much discussion of this issue after reading through the forums.
Reply
I'd speak to the owners and see if they are ok with you sub-letting while you stay on the property. My personal perspective.
Reply
Hi L, I don't know what percentage of Airbnbers are renters but I suspect there isn't much discussion of it on these forums because they want to keep it secret. I'm a landlord myself and wouldn't allow my tenants to do Airbnb. Too many variables involved with people I don't know coming and going. (With my Airbnb unit of course I can screen them.)
HOWEVER, I have just a triplex, and I live on the property. You're in a high-rise and renting a room in your own place. Your landlord might not care. That said, if your lease doesn't prohibit it, you might not want to bring it to your landlord's attention - unless Florida law requires you to.
Reply
I too would not allow my regular tenants to rent out a room in my condo. They won't have the insurance to cover me as the owner if someone got injured. The liability is too great.
Reply
T & B, I don't really want to bring it up because I'm sure they would find a way to shoot me down. However, I did notice the lease only prohibits guests over 30 days. C, thank you for the perspective, it's the aspect that's making me most nervous about venturing into hosting.
Reply
And L, I do have the insurance. My landlord is a big fancy grouchy company from Canada. I suspect they don't care much what we do but wondered generally you guys have experiences in high rise rentals.
Reply
How are your neighbors? Are they pretty laid back? Can you hear through the walls? Those that have been most successful in doing it have neighbors that know and don't mind.
Reply
Anecdotal evidence (many forum posts from tenant hosts, and glimpsing at listings in major metropolitan areas where hosts are offering a room in an apartment in a large building) suggests a good number of hosts are renters. I would expect that some have explicit permission from their landlords to do Airbnb -- some have stated that they do. But I suspect that many if not most hosts who are renters do not tell the landlord what they are doing. Unlike you, some are directly violating statements in their rental agreement that state they cannot sublet. Still others, like yourself, have a lease that doesn't expressly prohibit subletting, but the tenant suspects that if they asked their landlord directly if they could do Airbnb, the landlord would say no. So sometimes they just go ahead and do it, reasoning that the lease doesn't prohibit it, and if the landlord finds out, the worst that could happen is they get told to quit it. Usually this is the case, however in some cases tenants have been evicted for doing Airbnb, so it pays to be cautious. There have been a few forum posts by tenant hosts who were served eviction papers for doing Airbnb.
One has to realize that most leases landlords used were developed prior to Airbnb becoming popular, and many landlords still don't know about Airbnb. Hence, even though a rental agreement might allow subletting, this doesn't mean that the landlord intended to allow a tenant to do repeated subletting for profit. Many landlords' understanding of subletting was that a tenant might go away for a brief time, such as for vacation, or for summer, and try to find someone to take their place and cover their rent for this time, and this is something fairly benign to many landlords. However, it is now possible for a tenant to sign up on Airbnb and effectively rent out a room for profit on a continual basis, to many different people. This can bring up more "issues" for the landlord, such as these : (1) with a continual stream of guests, landlords' risk/liability may increase, and also the tenant host may be exposing landlord to types of liability that his/her insurance does not cover. This is not a fair situation for the landlord to be put in. (2) Tenant may be profiting on landlord's property to an extent that landlord finds objectionable -- particularly in areas with rent control where landlord cannot increase the rent more than say 3% a year, but tenant in subletting is effectively increasing the rent by 100% or more to secondary renters, thus violating rent control ordinances. (3) If unit is in a large building, tenant host could, by bringing in a constant stream of short term renters, begin to annoy neighboring tenants, who could complain to the landlord. (4) Sometimes tenant hosts are not careful about the type of guests they choose, and some guests have been very noisy and disturbed other tenants. Then too some tenants feel uncomfortable knowing that "strangers" have access to their building, and keys are floating around. So all these are things to keep in mind about hosting as a tenant.
Reply
Deborah your analysis is amazing. These are all of the thoughts that were on my mind. I'm pretty open to whoever wants to stay, but I jus dotn
REply
Some of what I presented is from my own reflection on these issues, some of it is from what I have read on the forums and elsewhere about issues that have arisen for tenant hosts. For instance the issues, in a high rise building of many units, of other tenants complaining about Airbnb guests coming to someone's unit, has been written about on the forums and has been in the news. As has the issue of tenants being concerned with "strangers' having keys to the building. I have also read of and met tenants who profit on their rent-controlled apartments in a way that is both illegal and unethical, and this creates problems not only for them (if their landlord finds out) but also for the image of Airbnb in certain cities. When tenants exploit Airbnb to violate the spirit of rent control, this makes landlords furious and they come out lobbying against Airbnb. In many cities there are significant movements against Airbnb and short term renting -- SF and NYC for example. So, bad behavior by a few makes it harder for cities to legislate favorable short term rental laws -- those who are simply renting out a room in their own home can end up harmed by those who are violating rental agreements and rent control ordinances, or by speculators/investors who are buying up multiunit buildings and turning all unit into short term rentals -- as the public gets concerned about these things and the whole image of Airbnb gets spoiled by such things. So these issues are complex and can get messy.
Reply
Thought I was typing a coherent thought but hey!
Reply
In NY, landlords are evicting renters because of Airbnb. The Attorney Generals lawsuit, the press and Airbnb's marketing has alerted almost everyone about Airbnb. We created a NY group and have heard of many evictions. But also know of other hosts where the landlords, co-op and condo boards know and are ok with it.
I have a private two family home and I'm legal, I have done a bit of press on behalf of "sharing economy" about this and only because I'm legal. Like Carolyn I wouldn't want a long term tenant Airbnbing their apartment in my home. At the end of the day they're renting and not owning, any issues will be mine. Very controversial here in NY.
Reply
Overall, I think property owners will mostly agree with the perspective expressed by E, C and L, about how they as landlords would not want their tenants doing Airbnb. I think if you are a tenant, it can be a bit easier to see through the landlord's eyes, if for instance you do one of these two thought-experiments:
(1) Imagine that you rent a 2 bedroom apartment, and you decide that you will just do Airbnb without asking your landlord. So, you decide to rent out one of the bedrooms. You rent it out to a guest named Dan who will stay 3 weeks. Dan arrives, and then the next day, you get really confused, because Dan is no longer there, but there is another person in your apartment, named Monica, who says that Dan turned around and created a listing and Airbnb'd out your room to her. She will be staying the 3 weeks instead of Dan. So, now instead of renting out to someone you picked and chose, you have a "renter" who has turned around and rented out your place without your knowledge or permission. How would you feel?
(2) Say you rent your car to your neighbor Ted for a month, for $200, because Ted said he is in a bind and needs a car. Then, you happen to see someone arrive to Ted's house, and watch as he hands them the keys to your car and collects $500 cash. You are appalled. You go ask Ted what is going on, and he says he needed the money, not the car, and that it is his right to rent out your car because while he is renting it from you, it is basically "his" car.
These examples can help illustrate why landlords may feel upset when they discover their tenants are turning around and re-renting their units.
Reply
Ran into this article today tackling this very subject:
bit.ly/13POflB
Reply
This article contains another instance of a tenant who is described as "profiteering" from her rent-controlled Central Park apartment. It also describes that her neighbor tenants felt "put at risk." Chip Conley is quoted as saying he is looking for ways that Airbnb can build relationships with communities and landlords. I would be curious about what his ideas are regarding how to build better relationships with landlords.
Reply
I think the new insurance policy speaks to airbnbs attempt to build relationships with landlords. As a landlord myself I had three main concerns with my rental property... 1) liability 2) rent paid on time 3) not having to deal with upset neighbors. If a tenant could demonstrate that these three things were covered without additional resources on my part I would allow airbnb by a tenant.
Replyy
One reason landlords would be quick to deny AirBnb is that they are getting nothing from it, but are open to many liabilities. Try to make it fair for your landlord too.
Reply o
This is a good point D that I suspect tenants may not appreciate. I think landlords would be more willing to let tenants do airbnb if they got a percentage of the profit, which to me would be fair since they own the property. Either that or arrange with tenants that if they want to do airbnb their rent will be increased.
Reply
There was a host on a group. He was away from his city for 5 months and Airbnbing his apartment. He rented to a group that were doing a film shoot, his neighbors complained. His landlord came to find the film crew. The host sent numerous emails and calls to the landlord. The landlord finally answered with stop renting or be evicted. No family, friends no one could be in the apartment without the host being present. At least the landlord gave him the option to stop and not just eviction papers.
Reply
Everything everyone is saying makes perfect sense. When I look at it from my end, I have a guest room that I'm paying rent for, and I rarely have guests. When I look at it from my landlord's end, I see everything that has been pointed out. The reason I have hope is because 1) I have insurance 2) there is not a noise problem here 3) there are so many people here they probably won't notice and 4) they have way bigger things to worry about than some random guests so long as they don't park in resident spaces. If they say a peep to me I will back down. I'm not up for a fight, just need the extra income. Btw I thought it was funny, I had my first inquiry and he didn't notice I had cats - it's part of the main listing description and mentioned everywhere. But hey.
Reply
if your rent is too high you could ask the landlord to rent the guest room to a long term tenant so you can share the expenses?
Lane