Post by High Priestess on Dec 30, 2015 4:22:53 GMT
Ernest shared Dec 29 2015
Guest badgering host over fees.
How would you have handled this?
When we receive a confirmed booking from a guest we send them a welcome message that includes the following language:
"We are looking forward to hosting you in our home! For the comfort and enjoyment of all guests (yourself included) and, so that there are absolutely no surprises, we ask that you read through the listing in its entirety (including the house rules, house manual and other things to note sections). We will presume that you and your guest (if applicable) have both read this prior to your arrival."
Our house rules include the following language: Should a guest desire to do so, a guest may arrange for early bag drop-off or bag storage after check-out. These extra services will incur a $25 convenience fee.
Our house rules also include the following language: "Late check-outs are not permitted under any circumstances. Should a guest check-out late (after 11am) for any reason, $25 will be withheld from his or her security deposit."
This guest checked out at 11:10am. Because the guest checked out late and because the guest had been rude, argumentative and pushy as pertaining to the baggage storage fee, we decided to enforce the late check-out penalty despite the fact that we usually would give a 15 minute grace period. In this situation, we felt the guest had worn out his welcome and had abused the host with his repeated attempts to bager the host into a reduced fee for storing his luggage.
The guest has denied the resolution request for the late check-out stating the following:
"I have absolutely no questions about early checkin fee since I respect their house rule and I did arrive earlier than 3pm. But I will unfortunately decline the late check-out fee since Ernest's son Josh, who is also our recipient, was the root cause of our delay. We have our luggage packed and were about to finish our breakfast 30 minutes before checking out. But his son Josh yelled at us for some unknown reason for non-stop 30 minutes.
Two ways to resolve this:
1. I respect the house rule and pay the late fee since I did check out late. But his son Josh has to refund us this $25 dollars due to our wasted time and 30 minutes of social awkwardness.
2. Waive the late fee. Since your recipient/son wanted to "tell me something" and stopped us from leaving the dining area, he should be at fault. Dear Ernest, your have a truly beautiful property and we had the wonderful first two days. But I would appreciate if you can confirmed with your son and see if this will give you some ideas about what happened that day. Details are also included in my review."
Notice how the guest here acknowledges that "I did chek out late." Yet in a previous message, when informed that we would be pursuing a late check-out fee, he stated, "I left the key right at 11 and then left the house. Please double check."
I can only imagine what untruths are to be found in his review. Seems rather unfair.
Here are some more facts:
At 11:36pm via text message the guest said: " Hi Josh, hopefully it is not too late! Can we store our luggage tmr after checking out and pick things up later during afternoon?"
Josh replied: "Sure. Just leave the bags you'd like to store with us underneath the piano in the living room. What time will you return for them?"
To which he replied: "How about 3pm?"
Josh said:" That's fine."
Guest replied: " And should we return the key then or during checkout?"
Josh said: " Leave the key on the table at the top of the stairs on the same level with the piano when you leave tomorrow morning. I'll be sure to be here at 3pm when you return."
Guest said: "Sounds good."
At this point we had already sent a resolution request for the early check-in which, up until this point, the guest had conveniently ignored.
Josh then sent the guest this message via Airbnb messaging at 11:50pm: " Hi Siyi, This message is to confirm that you'll be storing your bags here when you check-out tomorrow morning. We'll anticipate your return at 3pm to retrieve your belongings. Please let us know if your plans change. Cheers, Josh Thayer"
At 11:54pm the guest wrote this reply: "Hi Ernest! Yes. I have confirmed with Josh about the pickup time. Is there a service charge for this? Just to confirm."
Josh replied: "Yes, the fee is $25."
The guest did not reply.
The next time Josh heard from the guest was at 10:19am the next morning (39 minutes before he was scheduled to check-out), when the guest wrote the following message via text message: "Hi Josh. Do you mind if we change the pickup time to 4pm? And will there be a charge for storing the luggage?"
Josh wrote: "4pm is fine. It is $25."
Then the guest wrote: "Any holiday discount?"
Josh wrote: "No discount. If you feel the service is not worth the price, please take your bags with you when you check-out. You are under no obligation to accept the service."
Guest wrote: "I was just asking. I will take the bag with me when checking out and thanks for providing the service!"
Josh replied: "Ok, no problem."
At 10:45am Josh walked upstairs at which point the guest was sitting at the dining table with his girlfriend eating his breakfast. The guest engaged Josh for a third time regarding the price for the luggage storage asking again if there was a holiday discount. Josh was exasperated by this time as the guest contiued to ask about the price and whether Josh would discount the price especially for him "for a holiday discount."
Josh and the guest had just had this very conversation via text message a few minutes earlier and by this time Josh felt like the guest was badgering him about the price. We have the prices clearly listed in the house rules which it seemed clear the guest had not read.
The guest had already ignored the resolution request that we had sent regarding the early check-in fee so Josh was already anticipating a problem collecting from this guest for services already rendered. The guest asked about the price of the luggage storage fee three times so far, despite the fact that the price is listed in the house rules, and now had asked for a discount twice in addition to asking about the price so many times.
Josh was up to his wits end with the badgering and rude, selfish behavior of the guest who made Josh defend, face to face, the price for the service. The guest engaged Josh as he was walking up the stairs and Josh then spoke with the guest for about 5 minutes. At no point did Josh yell at him "for some unknown reason for non-stop 30 minutes." Josh did express his feelings stating that he felt the guest was being rude and that the continual badgering was offensive. But to say that Josh yelled at the guest is patently false. And to say it was for 30 minutes is absolutely untrue.
After the guest checked out at 11:08am he lied when he stated: "I left the key right at 11 and then left the house. Please double check." The guest was untruthful in this previous message then so it comes as no surprise to me that he is continuing to be untruthful when he says: "But his son Josh yelled at us for some unknown reason for non-stop 30 minutes." In no way did Josh delay his departure or impede his ability to leave on time. The guest engaged him once on his way up the stairs and then a second time on his way down the stairs when he wanted to apologize to Josh for offending him. To say that Josh was the cause of the delayed departure is both untruthful and manipulative. To say: "Since your recipient/son wanted to "tell me something" and stopped us from leaving the dining area, he should be at fault," is patently false and the guest knows it.
Shame on this guest for lying and being deceitful. We will pursue all fees owed to us from this guest and will engage Airbnb for assistance.
6 comments•1 like
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Cristina
helga
helgaa day ago
You should an extra haggling fee. Maybe 30 instead of 25, the price for two strands of hair extensions, replacing those you pulled out in despair ;-)
Reply Like 2 likes
Jeannette
Jeannettea day ago
One thing I do now that I charge a late fee for anything more than five minutes after 11 a.m. is send a message through the AirBNB system stating, "It's now 11:07 pm, you are still here and so I will go to the Resolution Center and charge you a late fee." That creates a time stamp of sorts.
Reply Like 7 replies•4 likes
Rose
Rosea day ago
Nice, I like that Jeanette!
Ernest
Ernesta day ago
Brilliant!
Raymond & Elaine
Raymond & Elaine13 hours ago
I will probably create a stampede to the door as well.
Raymond & Elaine
Raymond & Elaine13 hours ago
It not I
Jeannette
Jeannette13 hours ago
IT DID!!! Last week I knocked on the door @ 11, the girl of the couple said they would be out at 11:30, I said OK I'll send you the late checkout amendment, they were downstairs at 11:04! Despite the boy being in the shower I think when I knocked.
Jeannette
Jeannette13 hours ago
When they showed up downstairs (cute couple) I said Wow you guys have an extra gear! And then I cancelled the amendment, writing "Good job!" on the cancel form, and we chatted about their trip to the National Aquarium.
helga
helga12 hours ago
Lol Jeanette. Better then coffeine to get the circulation up.
Anne
Annea day ago
Ernest, you have invested enough time with this guest. I say respond and then let ABB deal with it. It's not always about the money, or what's right. What do you have the energy for?
Reply Like 2 likes
Rose
Rosea day ago
I would think once Airbnb saw the messaging between Josh & the guest they will see he asked more than once and the timing of it all. And just the way he is badgering in the message to Airbnb as well shows he is being untruthful. What do you need to do now Ernest? Can you respond to what he said to Airbnb? Or is that it and you wait for them to decide? Be your usually clear headed self and not emotional and I'm sure they will side with you.
Just a question...these fees for arrival, departure & bags stored...these are in your house rules? So Airbnb should theoretically give you the money right? I haven't had to charge anyone after the fact, so I wondered how often it works in the hosts favor. I guess it comes down to what the guests dispute & who Airbnb believes?
Reply Like 1 reply•1 like
Ernest
Ernesta day ago
Yes, these fees are all clearly and unambiguously detailed in the house rules. Airbnb has always sided with me. The whole situation with guests such as this one is intolerably frustrating.
helga
helga19 hours ago
Ernest, I think you are so frustrated, because it was The Wrong guest for you. Normally our rules and profile function as a filter quite well. Yours signal "extra correct" and you put prices on every infraction. That turns off every normal sloppy person who comes for late evenings and laying abed till noon. Then you make sure in your admission procedure that they have read everything and are well aware of the law in your territory. That should signal to the most careless guy to click back and read. And lo, there is a wrong guest so clueless that he does not even imagine that any rule could apply to him. You could never break those blinds, best to say, that it was the fool of the year ( there is always one every year), ask for your fee and ignore him. - if you have his address you can send him travel brochures from Cuba, Saudi Arabia or North Corea and dream about him getting a reality check there ;-)
Reply Like 2 likes
Jeannette
Jeannette11 hours ago
"guest so clueless that he does not even imagine that any rule could apply to him" Deborah has written excellent blog posts on this kind of person. They are only looking for "cheap" and "conveniently located." Once they find what they want, the rules are, to them, immaterial. See:
Reply Like 1 reply•1 like
Jeannette
Jeannette11 hours ago
tinyurl.com/qxdnlms
Deboraha day ago
Do you mean how would I handle this as far as a reply to their resolution request decline & comment? Or how I would have handled this all along during check out day?
Well if beginning with check out day, I think what you are seeing , that has happened in several instances, is that entitled people dont' want to pay either late check out fees, or bag storage fees. They just want these things to be offered free. They will agree in advance to such fees, but the agreement to the rules is, as I have experienced often with renters, quite dishonest -- in fact, they dont' expect to have the rules they agree to, actually be applied to them.
What I would do, is set up the system in such a way, as to result in the least amount of headache and hassle for myself. My primary orientation would be not in providing services, but in reducing hassle. Therefore, since obtaining stipulated fees from Airbnb afterwards can involve hassle (the hassle of the back and forth on the resolution request), I would not have a late check out fee. I would simply commence throwing the guest out of the house if they were late checking out. While we as hosts cannot control whether or not we will get the late check out fee paid to us, what we CAN control, is how long the guest and their baggage remains on our property, after which point the law considers both said guest and said property to be trespassing. As I understand it, the law is clear, that a guest who remains after check out time in a short term rental in California, is committing the crime of trespassing, a misdemeanor. They can be arrested for this, actually.
I would not start throwing someone and their baggage out 10 or 15 minutes after check out time, but I would start pressuring them.
I would not offer bag storage for a fee, because at times I just would not want to be around to take care of storing or delivering bags -- and I would not want anyone to think that they can depend on storing luggage after they leave. I will offer this for free to nice guests, but if I think the guest is entitled and expects the "right" to this service, I won't even offer it to them if they are willing to pay for it, as I don't like that attitude.
If I did have a late check out fee, and I got the kind of response from guest as you did in the resolution request, I would avoid long detailed responses. I would say something such as "guest agrees he checked out late -- so he should pay the fee. I am sure Airbnb staff will find it amusing to think that guest expects to receive compensation for experiencing social awkwardness, particularly in the case where guest's own behavior occaisioned the awkwardness that he experienced."
Reply Like 1 reply•6 likes Delete
Rick
Rick8 hours ago
Thanks, Deborah -- the key is in the second paragraph. -- they actually do want these services to be offered free of charge & will agree to everything-- thinking the whole time that they will somehow be exempted!! Just incredible.
Rosanne
Rosannea day ago
I dont keep baggage anymore. The few times I have done it, the person came back and took a shower and/or used toilet. I had the bathroom all cleaned and sprayed with Lysol which I had to do all over again. Why cant they just lock their luggage in the trunk of their car?
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Dee
Deea day ago
My check out time is 11am and I've kept bags until 6pm and 7pm, without extra charge, but they have to remove all belongings from the room and If I was going to charge, I think would ask for payment on arrival.
Guest badgering host over fees.
How would you have handled this?
When we receive a confirmed booking from a guest we send them a welcome message that includes the following language:
"We are looking forward to hosting you in our home! For the comfort and enjoyment of all guests (yourself included) and, so that there are absolutely no surprises, we ask that you read through the listing in its entirety (including the house rules, house manual and other things to note sections). We will presume that you and your guest (if applicable) have both read this prior to your arrival."
Our house rules include the following language: Should a guest desire to do so, a guest may arrange for early bag drop-off or bag storage after check-out. These extra services will incur a $25 convenience fee.
Our house rules also include the following language: "Late check-outs are not permitted under any circumstances. Should a guest check-out late (after 11am) for any reason, $25 will be withheld from his or her security deposit."
This guest checked out at 11:10am. Because the guest checked out late and because the guest had been rude, argumentative and pushy as pertaining to the baggage storage fee, we decided to enforce the late check-out penalty despite the fact that we usually would give a 15 minute grace period. In this situation, we felt the guest had worn out his welcome and had abused the host with his repeated attempts to bager the host into a reduced fee for storing his luggage.
The guest has denied the resolution request for the late check-out stating the following:
"I have absolutely no questions about early checkin fee since I respect their house rule and I did arrive earlier than 3pm. But I will unfortunately decline the late check-out fee since Ernest's son Josh, who is also our recipient, was the root cause of our delay. We have our luggage packed and were about to finish our breakfast 30 minutes before checking out. But his son Josh yelled at us for some unknown reason for non-stop 30 minutes.
Two ways to resolve this:
1. I respect the house rule and pay the late fee since I did check out late. But his son Josh has to refund us this $25 dollars due to our wasted time and 30 minutes of social awkwardness.
2. Waive the late fee. Since your recipient/son wanted to "tell me something" and stopped us from leaving the dining area, he should be at fault. Dear Ernest, your have a truly beautiful property and we had the wonderful first two days. But I would appreciate if you can confirmed with your son and see if this will give you some ideas about what happened that day. Details are also included in my review."
Notice how the guest here acknowledges that "I did chek out late." Yet in a previous message, when informed that we would be pursuing a late check-out fee, he stated, "I left the key right at 11 and then left the house. Please double check."
I can only imagine what untruths are to be found in his review. Seems rather unfair.
Here are some more facts:
At 11:36pm via text message the guest said: " Hi Josh, hopefully it is not too late! Can we store our luggage tmr after checking out and pick things up later during afternoon?"
Josh replied: "Sure. Just leave the bags you'd like to store with us underneath the piano in the living room. What time will you return for them?"
To which he replied: "How about 3pm?"
Josh said:" That's fine."
Guest replied: " And should we return the key then or during checkout?"
Josh said: " Leave the key on the table at the top of the stairs on the same level with the piano when you leave tomorrow morning. I'll be sure to be here at 3pm when you return."
Guest said: "Sounds good."
At this point we had already sent a resolution request for the early check-in which, up until this point, the guest had conveniently ignored.
Josh then sent the guest this message via Airbnb messaging at 11:50pm: " Hi Siyi, This message is to confirm that you'll be storing your bags here when you check-out tomorrow morning. We'll anticipate your return at 3pm to retrieve your belongings. Please let us know if your plans change. Cheers, Josh Thayer"
At 11:54pm the guest wrote this reply: "Hi Ernest! Yes. I have confirmed with Josh about the pickup time. Is there a service charge for this? Just to confirm."
Josh replied: "Yes, the fee is $25."
The guest did not reply.
The next time Josh heard from the guest was at 10:19am the next morning (39 minutes before he was scheduled to check-out), when the guest wrote the following message via text message: "Hi Josh. Do you mind if we change the pickup time to 4pm? And will there be a charge for storing the luggage?"
Josh wrote: "4pm is fine. It is $25."
Then the guest wrote: "Any holiday discount?"
Josh wrote: "No discount. If you feel the service is not worth the price, please take your bags with you when you check-out. You are under no obligation to accept the service."
Guest wrote: "I was just asking. I will take the bag with me when checking out and thanks for providing the service!"
Josh replied: "Ok, no problem."
At 10:45am Josh walked upstairs at which point the guest was sitting at the dining table with his girlfriend eating his breakfast. The guest engaged Josh for a third time regarding the price for the luggage storage asking again if there was a holiday discount. Josh was exasperated by this time as the guest contiued to ask about the price and whether Josh would discount the price especially for him "for a holiday discount."
Josh and the guest had just had this very conversation via text message a few minutes earlier and by this time Josh felt like the guest was badgering him about the price. We have the prices clearly listed in the house rules which it seemed clear the guest had not read.
The guest had already ignored the resolution request that we had sent regarding the early check-in fee so Josh was already anticipating a problem collecting from this guest for services already rendered. The guest asked about the price of the luggage storage fee three times so far, despite the fact that the price is listed in the house rules, and now had asked for a discount twice in addition to asking about the price so many times.
Josh was up to his wits end with the badgering and rude, selfish behavior of the guest who made Josh defend, face to face, the price for the service. The guest engaged Josh as he was walking up the stairs and Josh then spoke with the guest for about 5 minutes. At no point did Josh yell at him "for some unknown reason for non-stop 30 minutes." Josh did express his feelings stating that he felt the guest was being rude and that the continual badgering was offensive. But to say that Josh yelled at the guest is patently false. And to say it was for 30 minutes is absolutely untrue.
After the guest checked out at 11:08am he lied when he stated: "I left the key right at 11 and then left the house. Please double check." The guest was untruthful in this previous message then so it comes as no surprise to me that he is continuing to be untruthful when he says: "But his son Josh yelled at us for some unknown reason for non-stop 30 minutes." In no way did Josh delay his departure or impede his ability to leave on time. The guest engaged him once on his way up the stairs and then a second time on his way down the stairs when he wanted to apologize to Josh for offending him. To say that Josh was the cause of the delayed departure is both untruthful and manipulative. To say: "Since your recipient/son wanted to "tell me something" and stopped us from leaving the dining area, he should be at fault," is patently false and the guest knows it.
Shame on this guest for lying and being deceitful. We will pursue all fees owed to us from this guest and will engage Airbnb for assistance.
6 comments•1 like
Follow
Like
Cristina
helga
helgaa day ago
You should an extra haggling fee. Maybe 30 instead of 25, the price for two strands of hair extensions, replacing those you pulled out in despair ;-)
Reply Like 2 likes
Jeannette
Jeannettea day ago
One thing I do now that I charge a late fee for anything more than five minutes after 11 a.m. is send a message through the AirBNB system stating, "It's now 11:07 pm, you are still here and so I will go to the Resolution Center and charge you a late fee." That creates a time stamp of sorts.
Reply Like 7 replies•4 likes
Rose
Rosea day ago
Nice, I like that Jeanette!
Ernest
Ernesta day ago
Brilliant!
Raymond & Elaine
Raymond & Elaine13 hours ago
I will probably create a stampede to the door as well.
Raymond & Elaine
Raymond & Elaine13 hours ago
It not I
Jeannette
Jeannette13 hours ago
IT DID!!! Last week I knocked on the door @ 11, the girl of the couple said they would be out at 11:30, I said OK I'll send you the late checkout amendment, they were downstairs at 11:04! Despite the boy being in the shower I think when I knocked.
Jeannette
Jeannette13 hours ago
When they showed up downstairs (cute couple) I said Wow you guys have an extra gear! And then I cancelled the amendment, writing "Good job!" on the cancel form, and we chatted about their trip to the National Aquarium.
helga
helga12 hours ago
Lol Jeanette. Better then coffeine to get the circulation up.
Anne
Annea day ago
Ernest, you have invested enough time with this guest. I say respond and then let ABB deal with it. It's not always about the money, or what's right. What do you have the energy for?
Reply Like 2 likes
Rose
Rosea day ago
I would think once Airbnb saw the messaging between Josh & the guest they will see he asked more than once and the timing of it all. And just the way he is badgering in the message to Airbnb as well shows he is being untruthful. What do you need to do now Ernest? Can you respond to what he said to Airbnb? Or is that it and you wait for them to decide? Be your usually clear headed self and not emotional and I'm sure they will side with you.
Just a question...these fees for arrival, departure & bags stored...these are in your house rules? So Airbnb should theoretically give you the money right? I haven't had to charge anyone after the fact, so I wondered how often it works in the hosts favor. I guess it comes down to what the guests dispute & who Airbnb believes?
Reply Like 1 reply•1 like
Ernest
Ernesta day ago
Yes, these fees are all clearly and unambiguously detailed in the house rules. Airbnb has always sided with me. The whole situation with guests such as this one is intolerably frustrating.
helga
helga19 hours ago
Ernest, I think you are so frustrated, because it was The Wrong guest for you. Normally our rules and profile function as a filter quite well. Yours signal "extra correct" and you put prices on every infraction. That turns off every normal sloppy person who comes for late evenings and laying abed till noon. Then you make sure in your admission procedure that they have read everything and are well aware of the law in your territory. That should signal to the most careless guy to click back and read. And lo, there is a wrong guest so clueless that he does not even imagine that any rule could apply to him. You could never break those blinds, best to say, that it was the fool of the year ( there is always one every year), ask for your fee and ignore him. - if you have his address you can send him travel brochures from Cuba, Saudi Arabia or North Corea and dream about him getting a reality check there ;-)
Reply Like 2 likes
Jeannette
Jeannette11 hours ago
"guest so clueless that he does not even imagine that any rule could apply to him" Deborah has written excellent blog posts on this kind of person. They are only looking for "cheap" and "conveniently located." Once they find what they want, the rules are, to them, immaterial. See:
Reply Like 1 reply•1 like
Jeannette
Jeannette11 hours ago
tinyurl.com/qxdnlms
Deboraha day ago
Do you mean how would I handle this as far as a reply to their resolution request decline & comment? Or how I would have handled this all along during check out day?
Well if beginning with check out day, I think what you are seeing , that has happened in several instances, is that entitled people dont' want to pay either late check out fees, or bag storage fees. They just want these things to be offered free. They will agree in advance to such fees, but the agreement to the rules is, as I have experienced often with renters, quite dishonest -- in fact, they dont' expect to have the rules they agree to, actually be applied to them.
What I would do, is set up the system in such a way, as to result in the least amount of headache and hassle for myself. My primary orientation would be not in providing services, but in reducing hassle. Therefore, since obtaining stipulated fees from Airbnb afterwards can involve hassle (the hassle of the back and forth on the resolution request), I would not have a late check out fee. I would simply commence throwing the guest out of the house if they were late checking out. While we as hosts cannot control whether or not we will get the late check out fee paid to us, what we CAN control, is how long the guest and their baggage remains on our property, after which point the law considers both said guest and said property to be trespassing. As I understand it, the law is clear, that a guest who remains after check out time in a short term rental in California, is committing the crime of trespassing, a misdemeanor. They can be arrested for this, actually.
I would not start throwing someone and their baggage out 10 or 15 minutes after check out time, but I would start pressuring them.
I would not offer bag storage for a fee, because at times I just would not want to be around to take care of storing or delivering bags -- and I would not want anyone to think that they can depend on storing luggage after they leave. I will offer this for free to nice guests, but if I think the guest is entitled and expects the "right" to this service, I won't even offer it to them if they are willing to pay for it, as I don't like that attitude.
If I did have a late check out fee, and I got the kind of response from guest as you did in the resolution request, I would avoid long detailed responses. I would say something such as "guest agrees he checked out late -- so he should pay the fee. I am sure Airbnb staff will find it amusing to think that guest expects to receive compensation for experiencing social awkwardness, particularly in the case where guest's own behavior occaisioned the awkwardness that he experienced."
Reply Like 1 reply•6 likes Delete
Rick
Rick8 hours ago
Thanks, Deborah -- the key is in the second paragraph. -- they actually do want these services to be offered free of charge & will agree to everything-- thinking the whole time that they will somehow be exempted!! Just incredible.
Rosanne
Rosannea day ago
I dont keep baggage anymore. The few times I have done it, the person came back and took a shower and/or used toilet. I had the bathroom all cleaned and sprayed with Lysol which I had to do all over again. Why cant they just lock their luggage in the trunk of their car?
Reply Like Delete
Dee
Deea day ago
My check out time is 11am and I've kept bags until 6pm and 7pm, without extra charge, but they have to remove all belongings from the room and If I was going to charge, I think would ask for payment on arrival.