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Post by Olivier François on Dec 18, 2015 22:04:39 GMT
As a host I always try to do as well as possible and happy to share with other hosts news and information about it. My grand parents where hosting, my parents too, and I always heard about rules, laws to respect (because it's true here in France we have a huge level of regulation). And I still remember my father saying 'Nul n'est censé ignorer la loi' ignorance of the law is no excuse. Well, this spring french parliament decided to change the law which require hotel to ask for a police record for each clients... including ALL touristic accommodation type. It was just 1 of 1000 rule more but... In june a terrorists had been arrested in Boulogne-Billancourt (Paris) in an airbnb flat. Since the november Paris attacks we are officially in state of emergency and authorities urge touristic sector to respect the law. I receive 3 mails this week from my local tourist office, from the prefecture and from CléVacance (a french label for tourist accomodation) to communicate I'm obliged to make a police record for each non french guest (even for european citizen) with name, birth date, adress, phone number, email, check-in and check-out date, etc. Whow! I phone Airbnb to know about it... and nothing! Well not nothing, they know this new rule but don't want to communicate about such annoying and intrusive demand. And don't want me to share about this on french forum. I said them too late, already done because I spend more than 2 hour to get somebody on phone as we were supposed to have a special superhost phone number and don't have any... I finally got a mail saying they will investigate and giving me the spécial superhost phone number (so it's true it exists).
It's quite incredible that airbnb consider that they don't have to provide any legal information: YOU have to know laws you have to know. The same with taxes: you have to pay taxes you have to pay. And nothing more. On other hand and in the same spirit than 'discouraged with Airbnb' post, I saw during this year the number of listings rising till September with good and bad experience, and since 2 month I saw 15 disparear.
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Post by High Priestess on Dec 18, 2015 23:57:53 GMT
That is intrusive, having to report to the police for each non french guest! I would not want to comply with that. Is there a fine or some penalty if you don't comply? Such a rule really would not go over well in liberal-progressive areas of the USA, such as my region, with the amount of suspicion of police and the view that police are already overreaching, that the government is already carrying out too much surveillance. People would refuse to provide the information.
As I see it, it's not hotels and hosts' responsibility to keep track of visitors to France (or any nation) - that is the responsibility of the immigration police in any country, or the visa office, or the airlines or train companies. Transportation and immigration should be taking care of all of that, not hotels. Because once you have a terrorist in your nation, it doesn't matter if they stay in a hotel, an Airbnb listing, or sleep in the forest or in someone's pasture -- they are there, they can get around and cause trouble. WHere they stay seems much less important to me than what they do and who they meet and spend time with.
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Post by Olivier François on Dec 19, 2015 10:23:51 GMT
Hi Deborah, this regulation always exists in France for hotels, and not only in France. In most of the countries I use to visit hotels ask for passport or ID ( and make themselves the police report ). The fact is we don't have anymore formal borders in European Union (and specifically with countries from Senghen area, you don't need any ID to enter in. Most of terrorists who did Paris attacks went from Belgium ( sorry Jessa. . . . ). I didn't hear anything about fine but. . . about criminal reponsability ! I'm not angry with the regulation itself but with lack of information from Airbnb. Same happens with internet responsability 6 month ago, with touristic taxes 2 month ago, with income tax 3 weeks ago. They don't communicate anything, just say be aware of your specific rules and laws. And at the same time avertising everywhere about how easy it is to rent your home on airbnb. They make me feel like a troublemaker but this is not a game! And if hosts don't respect rules and laws it impacts everybody. So my dilema is: sharing this despite of airbnb recommandation or don't say anything and let other hosts dealing with problems . I think after being rebuffed by airbnb 3 times I will let it go without doing anything so it will be their responsability and réputation not mine.
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Post by High Priestess on Dec 19, 2015 16:07:58 GMT
I see what you mean, Olivier, about not hearing from Airbnb about this. Do you use only Airbnb, or also VRBO or HomeAWay or one of the other companies? Did any of those other companies contact hosts to let them know about this? My guess would be that none of those companies contacted those who had listings on their site about this, not just Airbnb. I am not surprised about that, since once they start wading into the realm of informing you about all national, state, or local laws, it seems that could get very complicated to keep all hosts updated on all laws in every locality around the whole world. In fact, there could even be liability issues and the creation of a false dependency if Airbnb or any other company takes on the responsibility of communicating everything about every local law to every host.
I agree that there is a disconnect between Airbnb promoting the idea that it is very easy to host, when in fact it isn't and there is a lot to know. We see ramifications of this all the time on the Airbnb host groups, when hosts ask questions that make it clear that they are just not ready to start hosting -- they often dont' fully understand that they are now running a business, and need to be responsible for their own screening of guests, for instance. Many hosts actually think that it's Airbnb that screens guests! It's absurd but people think that. So people are signing up to host without being prepared at all to do the work. I wrote a blog about that, here: Don't be An Airbnb Baby (direct link here: globalhostingblogs.com/2015/12/04/dont-be-an-airbnb-baby/ ) I dont' blame Airbnb for these presumptions by hosts as much as I blame hosts who have no experience renting out property. I do think that Airbnb is too eager to sign up new hosts (is on a drive to do that), but since Airbnb is different than the other vacation rental companies, more personal, I think this leads many to misunderstandings -- just the tone of Airbnb as a company I think leads people to make erroneous presumptions about what it means to be renting property.
So I guess my perspective on this would be, I can see that it is frustrating not to know about all the regulations, but if hosts watch the news and participate in the host community, they should hear these updates. I really don't see any problem with you mentioning this on the host group for France -- I don't understand why Airbnb would be opposed to that (maybe that was just the one customer service person's own bias), because keeping hosts informed of local laws is a good thing, not a problem.
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Post by High Priestess on Dec 19, 2015 17:09:18 GMT
Here's a story which has to do with Airbnb and its responsibility either for communicating local laws to hosts, or not having that responsibility -- the outcome remains unclear: globalhosting.freeforums.net/thread/1327/santa-fe-seeks-taxes-airbnbAirbnb mnight do better to protect itself from liability and lawsuits such as this when it clarifies that hosts are solely responsible for knowing and following local laws. For instance, in this case, there is no reason to make Airbnb responsible when local hosts don't collect and remit taxes to their city. However, it's easier to sue Airbnb than to sue 1000 hosts in a city. What do you think? |
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Post by Maria Lurdes (Milu) on Dec 19, 2015 20:56:48 GMT
Hi deborah, the link for the "don't be an airbnb baby" goes to the "newest posts" thread for me so the link might be wonky. Can you try reposting that link? thank you! |
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Post by Olivier François on Dec 19, 2015 21:32:42 GMT
Deborah, just have a look on Homeway host guide (anybody can have a look because they have a specific one for each country at least in Europe), you will find many many interesting information about regulation, taxes, laws, etc, and updated. I phone them and was welcoming by someone who said me that they're going to inform host about that. The same at Gîtes de France and I found on internet more communication from others platform about it. That's why I asked Airbnb if they will do something. I agree with you, each host have to look for information by himself. But during few time I though making part of a community (I'm not talking about globalhosting) which include hosts AND airbnb for mutual benefit. But it seems to be just a host CS working for free for airbnb benefit. I don't have anymore time to waste with that.
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Post by High Priestess on Dec 20, 2015 0:00:30 GMT
Olivier --- It does seem that if HomeAway is willing to provide the information about laws in France, then Airbnb should be willing to do that too. If HomeAway can do it, then it seems it isn't too hard to do. Maybe not provide info on ALL the laws, to each little tiny detail (in some cases, there can be a tremendous number of tiny details) but just summarize the important laws and maybe give info about where to find more information. Certainly I think anything that hosts are required to do by the police, seems top priority -- more so than many other laws/regulations.
I do think though that there is an advantage not only for Airbnb but for all of us, when Airbnb doesn't provide the laws for each locality. That is, that (as I have written in my blog entitled "A Question of LEgality -- see here: globalhostingblogs.com/2015/11/26/a-question-of-legality/ ) often the laws in a given region are simply WRONG, and the only way of overcoming those laws is really by momentum -- by having large numbers of people violate the laws. As I wrote in "A Question of Legality", in San Francisco, it was illegal to do any kind of short term rental, prior to February 2015. And quite likely, the only reason it was finally made legal to do such short term rentals, was because of the huge number of people (thousands of hosts) who were violating the law! If everyone is very proper and prim, and follows the law to a "T", sometimes that means, we dont' get the changes in society that need to happen. What's been happening with Airbnb hosting, is that people have gone ahead and hosted without knowing the law, or knowingly in violation of the law, and this has not been a bad thing at all, because the laws they are "violating" or ignoring or confused by, are generally outdated laws which are in need of being modernized in the face of the reality of the sharing economy. So the hosts do the hosting first, and then the cities come along later, and revise their laws, to keep up with the reality of hundreds of hosts in their cities.
If Airbnb were to have stated very clearly, for every host in every city, where (for instance) it is not currently legal to do short term rentals, this momentum could not get going very well - -and the necessary political pressure on the cities would not be there. For which reason I believe it is best if Airbnb simply refers vaguely to laws and regulations and leaves hosts to research all that for themselves --- or not, as they choose.
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Post by High Priestess on Dec 20, 2015 0:01:50 GMT
Hi deborah, the link for the "don't be an airbnb baby" goes to the "newest posts" thread for me so the link might be wonky. Can you try reposting that link? thank you! HI SuperHost -- I have no idea why you got to newest posts -- I edited that post and put the direct link there -- and it's here too --- globalhostingblogs.com/2015/12/04/dont-be-an-airbnb-baby/I just clicked on that link and it worked --- |
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Post by Olivier François on Dec 20, 2015 9:46:55 GMT
Deborah, I know in US every state or county have his own specific laws, taxes and regulations, and this make it difficult for airbnb to give a clear information about it. In France (the 2nd world market for airbnb with a local team in Paris) laws, taxes and regulations are the same where ever you host. All is decided in Paris for all the country. And France is quite a paradise for airbnb: homesharing, short term rental is legal and regulated in all territory since... 1919! Rules are very simple and clear. Airbnb attitude is clearly counterproductive. An example: as airbnb accomodation were growing, without any clear information from Airbnb about rules, with hosts violating them, some cities like Paris first, and now the state itself are creating more restricive laws against short term rental. At the same time hosts who were respecting the law, accepted as making part of tourism activity are now seen as pet peeve. At the same time this attitude generates lots of insatisfaction with hosts (CS in french is no longer available on phone, french airbnb FB page is full of claim, the same on their Twitter account) or with guests (CS having to deal a lot of ultimatum time cancelation and having to pay hotels). In my little town I was speaking with an hotel owner who said me: 'you work with Airbnb, great it's one of my first client bringing me homeless hosts, and they never discuss prices!'. And talking with many other local hosts working in STR sector since a long time we all note a fall in airbnb booking (while the global activity is growing and still at a hight level even now) and getting lots of disappointed airbnb hosts. Airbnb made a great job by making STR more democratic, more easy for guests but it's a pity to see they mess it up.
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Post by High Priestess on Dec 20, 2015 16:53:06 GMT
Olivier, it sounds like your situation in France is different from the US in that the laws are all more straightforward. Yet it sounds like you do have the same thing happening there which happens in the US, with many hosts violating the law and then this becomes a problem for all the hosts. It does sound like things have gone downhill, as you describe with the "homeless" guests and people complaining about Airbnb as their pet peeve. I can't imagine why you would not be able to reach customer service in French on the phone -- that sounds so ridiculous, given the size of Airbnb in France! It's outrageous really. I'm sorry to hear about all those problems.
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