Post by High Priestess on Dec 1, 2015 6:34:45 GMT
Isobela shared Nov 29 2015
Guest didn't check out on time... Penalty?
Yes, this is a super common problem, but I'm quite frustrated by my guests attitudes, and I am debating over whether to bother to enforce a stated penalty (i.e. will Airbnb even support me).
We hosted a group who didn't check-out on time. For 40 minutes, our housekeeper stood outside our cottage, as they continued to shower, blow dry their hair, make tea, and prepare to leave. 20 minutes after check-out I sent a message to my guest stating that my housekeeper needed to clean and they had stayed beyond check-out time. 10 minutes later I received a message from my guests saying "yes, we just left", implying that they had already vacated the property. Well, they hadn't. They were still at the cottage.
In light of the hugely obvious lie, I replied and clearly stated the fact that in our House Manual, which should have appeared on their reservation itinerary, it stated that there is a penalty of $50.00 if guests fail to vacate the property on time. By this time it was 10.40 PM, and I made sure to let them know that it was not ok and I knew they were not being honest. Well, in spite of this, my guests continued to assert that this wasn't true, that they were actually outside already, and then proceeded to tell me I was "threatening" them by pointing out the check-out time and penalty that they should have been aware of. They then questioned why my cleaner showed up at check-out time, especially when guests are on holidays and relaxing (because this means that check-out times are super arbitrary!), and then told me that it would leave a bad impression if we charged them and said we should work things out amicably (uh, work what out? you overstayed!). They also said my housekeeper should have started cleaning when she arrived while they were still there... because that's incredibly appropriate (cleaning while a guest showers isn't intrusive at all!). My housekeeper ended up going to speak to them to say that she had been there for 40 minutes already, at exactly 10.40 AM. They were going in and of the cottage, which doesn't count as having left. Not once did they apologise or express any consideration for the fact that they had caused is inconvenience, which is the part that annoys me the most.
So, in the House Manual section of my listing (which I assume shows up on the reservation itinerary), I make it pretty clear that if you stay beyond checkout I will charge you. I'm very reasonable, and even state that I can organise late check-outs for no additional charge but this needs to be organised with me in advance of a guest's stay. The fee goes towards costs incurred as a result of late check-out (housekeeper fees, compensating guests who are affected as a result).
My guests were so ungracious about this, and I would like to charge them because their lack of an apology has left me in a terrible mood, but if the fee was stated in the House Manual section (and I only ever had it there as a deterrent), and if my guest declines, do you think Airbnb will uphold it?
The fee will inevitably be passed on to our housekeeper who now has to come back to our place to finish preparing it for our next guests later in the afternoon, as she has other jobs to attend to. Worth it, or not?
Keith
If you charge them you can b3 sure of a Nad review from the guest.
If this is OK then do it. Otherwise just leave a review summarizing their lack of respect for check out times.
Isobel
Well, either way I do expect a bad review. They were wholly ungracious since confirming their booking, and their last message already seemed like a veiled threat to leave a bad review if I penalised them for failing to respect my check-out time. I think my main concern is going through the process through the Resolution Centre, having my guests decline, and then Airbnb failing to uphold what I had written in my House Manual.
Keith
File a claim. See if airbnb will support you. You'll likely need the cleaner to sign an affidavit.
scott
I can't see you getting an apology or the $50. Just write your review and then rebut their negative one when/if it shows up.
Isobela
I suppose the one negative aspect of Airbnb is that writing stated penalties in the instance that a rule is violated (or check-out time is not honored) is that Airbnb won't support you in enforcing it.
scott
There is more than one negative aspect of Airbnb, but lots of positive ones, too. Once a guest has left the building, I suspect it's very hard to claw anything back unless it's something they owned up at the time.
Isobel
Well, they did admit to having "just left" 30 minutes after check-out through the message thread. Although, they weren't being honest and were actually still at the property for a further 10 minutes. Perhaps 5 minute later this changed to "we're outside", so their honesty was always questionable. I do feel somewhat annoyed, because it does feel as though I'm letting my guest get away with being completely inconsiderate and just outright entitled. How they have good reviews from previous hosts, I will never understand.
Michele Yap
Michele
Please let us know the outcome.
Salvia
Quite a dilemma. There are hosts that are quite strict to cash in fees from guests missing check-outs and taking the risk of bad stars and reviews. I value that because that might prevent this behaviour in the future. But it might depend on the evaluation of the CS rep that takes up the claim and if he sees enough "proof" for that if guests denies. I would hate to play detective and take photos with time stamps of guests to prove them wrong when they dont take the word of the host truth. But honestly: which host would put in a claim for no reason and risking a dinge / bad review. You have records via messaging system , lets hope that this is enough to back your claim. I keep my fingers crossed.
Penny
I'm coming from a completely different view, and I also do cleans and check outs/ins for other hosts.
I think 10am is rather early for a check out. When on holidays, I too don't like to rush! I think a good way to reduce frustration on both sides if you want a 10am check out. Arrange for your cleaner to arrive at 11am. That means she is not standing at the door at 10 on the dot!
I did a clean this weekend. Check out was 11am. I arrived at 1.30pm, guests were still in bed and had only key and I couldn't wake them till 2pm. They then said they'd leave straight away and had showers, flooded the bathroom and left the place a mess! This was for another host. Lesson learned, communicate check out times multiple times in listing, manual, welcome letter, self checkout checklist and also text message the day before ( she didn't do the text message).
Sure frustrating but a later start time for your cleaner giving guests a buffer would be easy to do.
Jeannette
Disagree. For whole house rentals in my part of the whole, 10 a.m. is quite standard. Had to leave a beach house at 10 a.m. just yesterday. Whole house rentals take a WHILE to clean and departing guests cannot lollygag.
Penny
Older people generally get up early. and contingency planning is smart, you don't need to agree or disagree I just have a differing opinion and suggest ways to reduce a hosts angst rather than forcing a guest to comply without any wriggle room for a "human situation".
nathalie
10 am is very early to leave.
Margaret
I say 10 but give them until 11 to leave. It usually works. there is the odd unreasonable person.
C C
10 is too early. I have 11 on some listings, but 1pm on others. But nothing makes me madder than the very rare person who thinks they'll overstay. But most of my folks leave at 8am.
Andrew
Some hosts have had success with claiming a penalty fee for guests staying past their checkout. You have several things going for you: the clarity of your House Rules, the message from the guests after checkout time, and a housekeeper who can presumably send you an invoice for the additional time on the clock. So you can call Airbnb by phone, present your case, and see how they handle it. Let us know the results.
While you're well within your rights to enforce this policy, as it is clearly visible on your listing, you might make it a lot easier on yourself if you build some hidden flexibility into it. Why not schedule the housekeeper for 10:30 or 11, for those cases where an otherwise good guest can benefit from a few minutes of wiggle room?
Reply Like 2 likes
Jeannette
I would you'd do well, Isobel, given the August change to the Terms of Service which reads:
"We clarified that, in the rare event when a Guest overstays their reservation without the Hosts' consent, the Host is not only entitled to require the Guest to leave, but is now also authorized to charge the overstaying Guest twice the original average nightly Accommodation Fee, plus applicable taxes and service fees, for every day the Guest overstays without the Host's consent. Hosts can also recover costs of removing the overstaying Guest through Airbnb Payments."
Jeannette
www.airbnb.com/home/terms-of-service-event
scott
That refers to guests staying a whole day extra, not 40 minutes.
Jeannette
"for every day" -- they're going into a new day after 10 a.m. AFAIC, so time to brandish this overstay penalty at them. That's my whole problem with overstaying guests -- is it 30 minutes? 1 hour? 7 hours? 12? 24? So, they need to vamoose.
scott
The guests vamoosed 40 minutes after they were supposed to. Zoe and Isobel are not going to get any support from Airbnb in trying to extract additional money from the guest. Well, that's what I reckon anyway. It does need to be mentioned in the review, though. If I were Zoe and Isobel, I would stick with the 10am departure but book the cleaner for 11am. That allows for tardiness. Or do what I do and never have same day departure/arrivals - it means less angst all round.
Anne
Scott - 40 minutes is a long time when your 1. Outside waiting 2. Cleaning services only have do much time alloted. 15 minutes is reasonable and polite guests will be very thankful not rude and lying.
scott
Of course 40 minutes is a long time for a cleaner to be standing outside, but Airbnb are not going to saddle up and pursue the guests over a 40 minute overstay. I think what annoyed Zoe more than anything was the fact that the guests were not at all contrite. Anyway, Zoe has moved on and is trying to forget about it all.
Marie & Alec
Thanks Jeannette! I will add this to my rental agreement.
Jeannette
Sure! I think though -- it is implicit -- but yeah, clobber your guests w. the facts.
Marie & Alec
I had a guest (JJ) too that stayed for 2 weeks, extended their stay and checked out at 12:50, our standard check out is by 11:00am. I was slightly annoyed because they knew I had someone else coming in that same day. The place was a mess and the next guest arrived at 130pm they were early.
I had to hire someone to help me clean up.
Then (JJ) came back and book for another week. When it was time to check out they texted me at 1130 to ask if they could stay 1-2 hrs more. I was annoyed again. They didn't leave until 3pm. I contemplated on charging them but I decided against it.
I thanked GOD for the financial blessings and glad that the honeymoon was over.
Keith
So the same guest did the same thing to you twice? How/why would you let this happen? Haven't you communicated with them at least via private feedback that their behavior is unacceptable? The 2nd time why did you allow them to stay. They should have known better and your training this guest to abuse hosts. This isn't helpful to anyone.
Marie & Alec
No I didn't respond to their text hoping they would leave but they didn't. I do have check out instructions posted on the fridge. Yes I'm a sucker.. Things we do and sacrifice just for the just for a review. And no review just yet.
Ann
I would not hesitate to charge them. But document everything on the air bnb interface not text messages on your phone. They use that to make judgment calls. Record conversations , take pictures, time stamp conversations etc. Do everything you can because the one with the most documentation wins. I learned that from my ex husband who was a successful litigator . plus they will leave you negative feedback anyway and there is an option on the feedback for you to provide a rebuttal
Ann
And so sorry that this happened to you but I find especially with young people and big groups that they just want a bargain and to mess with you and really don't give a sh***t about reviews or respecting guidelines but they care about money
Isobel
There have been a few comments regarding how early my check-out time is, and I just wanted to clarify that in my House Manual, where I also state that there is a $50.00 penalty if guests fail to vacate the property on time, I also say that I am more than happy to offer late check-outs at no additional cost, but this has to be organised with me in advance of a guest's stay (and is subject to availability). I'm flexible when I can be, but we really do need, in most instances, that 10.00 AM to 3.00 PM window to clean the whole property. Guests are able to use their discretion when making a booking - if a check-out time is too early, then perhaps they shouldn't book the place to being with. And, if upon booking, or at any time prior to arrival, they feel that they might need extra time to leave, they're more than aware that they can get in touch to try to extend check-out with us.
Our housekeeper is happy to wait 5 to 10 minutes for guests to leave after check-out time, but this was an issue where the guests had no plans to go until they were aware we knew they hadn't checked out, lied about having departed, thinking they wouldn't get caught, and not once expressed they were sorry for the inconvenience. To the contrary, they were quite rude about the whole matter. Had they been somewhat more gracious and apologetic, I wouldn't have been quite so angry about the issue. However, after waiting until past midnight the day before their arrival, because they couldn't confirm check-in arrangements, and after giving them a $15.00 discount as a gesture at the time of booking, being told that I was unreasonable and "threatening" them, and that I was eager to get more money out of them by reminding them of things they should have already been aware of, put me in a terrible mood for most of yesterday.
For the sake of not wanting to deal with this guest any further, I'm not pursuing the penalty fee, as further interactions will simply put me into a horrible mood again.
Anne
I rent a whole house that takes 4 hours to thoroughly clean for the next guests. I have check out at 11am with a 4pm check in. I based my times on when people could arrive from Seattle/Vancouver and then leave and grab lunch somewhere else on the day they leave.
Guest didn't check out on time... Penalty?
Yes, this is a super common problem, but I'm quite frustrated by my guests attitudes, and I am debating over whether to bother to enforce a stated penalty (i.e. will Airbnb even support me).
We hosted a group who didn't check-out on time. For 40 minutes, our housekeeper stood outside our cottage, as they continued to shower, blow dry their hair, make tea, and prepare to leave. 20 minutes after check-out I sent a message to my guest stating that my housekeeper needed to clean and they had stayed beyond check-out time. 10 minutes later I received a message from my guests saying "yes, we just left", implying that they had already vacated the property. Well, they hadn't. They were still at the cottage.
In light of the hugely obvious lie, I replied and clearly stated the fact that in our House Manual, which should have appeared on their reservation itinerary, it stated that there is a penalty of $50.00 if guests fail to vacate the property on time. By this time it was 10.40 PM, and I made sure to let them know that it was not ok and I knew they were not being honest. Well, in spite of this, my guests continued to assert that this wasn't true, that they were actually outside already, and then proceeded to tell me I was "threatening" them by pointing out the check-out time and penalty that they should have been aware of. They then questioned why my cleaner showed up at check-out time, especially when guests are on holidays and relaxing (because this means that check-out times are super arbitrary!), and then told me that it would leave a bad impression if we charged them and said we should work things out amicably (uh, work what out? you overstayed!). They also said my housekeeper should have started cleaning when she arrived while they were still there... because that's incredibly appropriate (cleaning while a guest showers isn't intrusive at all!). My housekeeper ended up going to speak to them to say that she had been there for 40 minutes already, at exactly 10.40 AM. They were going in and of the cottage, which doesn't count as having left. Not once did they apologise or express any consideration for the fact that they had caused is inconvenience, which is the part that annoys me the most.
So, in the House Manual section of my listing (which I assume shows up on the reservation itinerary), I make it pretty clear that if you stay beyond checkout I will charge you. I'm very reasonable, and even state that I can organise late check-outs for no additional charge but this needs to be organised with me in advance of a guest's stay. The fee goes towards costs incurred as a result of late check-out (housekeeper fees, compensating guests who are affected as a result).
My guests were so ungracious about this, and I would like to charge them because their lack of an apology has left me in a terrible mood, but if the fee was stated in the House Manual section (and I only ever had it there as a deterrent), and if my guest declines, do you think Airbnb will uphold it?
The fee will inevitably be passed on to our housekeeper who now has to come back to our place to finish preparing it for our next guests later in the afternoon, as she has other jobs to attend to. Worth it, or not?
Keith
If you charge them you can b3 sure of a Nad review from the guest.
If this is OK then do it. Otherwise just leave a review summarizing their lack of respect for check out times.
Isobel
Well, either way I do expect a bad review. They were wholly ungracious since confirming their booking, and their last message already seemed like a veiled threat to leave a bad review if I penalised them for failing to respect my check-out time. I think my main concern is going through the process through the Resolution Centre, having my guests decline, and then Airbnb failing to uphold what I had written in my House Manual.
Keith
File a claim. See if airbnb will support you. You'll likely need the cleaner to sign an affidavit.
scott
I can't see you getting an apology or the $50. Just write your review and then rebut their negative one when/if it shows up.
Isobela
I suppose the one negative aspect of Airbnb is that writing stated penalties in the instance that a rule is violated (or check-out time is not honored) is that Airbnb won't support you in enforcing it.
scott
There is more than one negative aspect of Airbnb, but lots of positive ones, too. Once a guest has left the building, I suspect it's very hard to claw anything back unless it's something they owned up at the time.
Isobel
Well, they did admit to having "just left" 30 minutes after check-out through the message thread. Although, they weren't being honest and were actually still at the property for a further 10 minutes. Perhaps 5 minute later this changed to "we're outside", so their honesty was always questionable. I do feel somewhat annoyed, because it does feel as though I'm letting my guest get away with being completely inconsiderate and just outright entitled. How they have good reviews from previous hosts, I will never understand.
Michele Yap
Michele
Please let us know the outcome.
Salvia
Quite a dilemma. There are hosts that are quite strict to cash in fees from guests missing check-outs and taking the risk of bad stars and reviews. I value that because that might prevent this behaviour in the future. But it might depend on the evaluation of the CS rep that takes up the claim and if he sees enough "proof" for that if guests denies. I would hate to play detective and take photos with time stamps of guests to prove them wrong when they dont take the word of the host truth. But honestly: which host would put in a claim for no reason and risking a dinge / bad review. You have records via messaging system , lets hope that this is enough to back your claim. I keep my fingers crossed.
Penny
I'm coming from a completely different view, and I also do cleans and check outs/ins for other hosts.
I think 10am is rather early for a check out. When on holidays, I too don't like to rush! I think a good way to reduce frustration on both sides if you want a 10am check out. Arrange for your cleaner to arrive at 11am. That means she is not standing at the door at 10 on the dot!
I did a clean this weekend. Check out was 11am. I arrived at 1.30pm, guests were still in bed and had only key and I couldn't wake them till 2pm. They then said they'd leave straight away and had showers, flooded the bathroom and left the place a mess! This was for another host. Lesson learned, communicate check out times multiple times in listing, manual, welcome letter, self checkout checklist and also text message the day before ( she didn't do the text message).
Sure frustrating but a later start time for your cleaner giving guests a buffer would be easy to do.
Jeannette
Disagree. For whole house rentals in my part of the whole, 10 a.m. is quite standard. Had to leave a beach house at 10 a.m. just yesterday. Whole house rentals take a WHILE to clean and departing guests cannot lollygag.
Penny
Older people generally get up early. and contingency planning is smart, you don't need to agree or disagree I just have a differing opinion and suggest ways to reduce a hosts angst rather than forcing a guest to comply without any wriggle room for a "human situation".
nathalie
10 am is very early to leave.
Margaret
I say 10 but give them until 11 to leave. It usually works. there is the odd unreasonable person.
C C
10 is too early. I have 11 on some listings, but 1pm on others. But nothing makes me madder than the very rare person who thinks they'll overstay. But most of my folks leave at 8am.
Andrew
Some hosts have had success with claiming a penalty fee for guests staying past their checkout. You have several things going for you: the clarity of your House Rules, the message from the guests after checkout time, and a housekeeper who can presumably send you an invoice for the additional time on the clock. So you can call Airbnb by phone, present your case, and see how they handle it. Let us know the results.
While you're well within your rights to enforce this policy, as it is clearly visible on your listing, you might make it a lot easier on yourself if you build some hidden flexibility into it. Why not schedule the housekeeper for 10:30 or 11, for those cases where an otherwise good guest can benefit from a few minutes of wiggle room?
Reply Like 2 likes
Jeannette
I would you'd do well, Isobel, given the August change to the Terms of Service which reads:
"We clarified that, in the rare event when a Guest overstays their reservation without the Hosts' consent, the Host is not only entitled to require the Guest to leave, but is now also authorized to charge the overstaying Guest twice the original average nightly Accommodation Fee, plus applicable taxes and service fees, for every day the Guest overstays without the Host's consent. Hosts can also recover costs of removing the overstaying Guest through Airbnb Payments."
Jeannette
www.airbnb.com/home/terms-of-service-event
scott
That refers to guests staying a whole day extra, not 40 minutes.
Jeannette
"for every day" -- they're going into a new day after 10 a.m. AFAIC, so time to brandish this overstay penalty at them. That's my whole problem with overstaying guests -- is it 30 minutes? 1 hour? 7 hours? 12? 24? So, they need to vamoose.
scott
The guests vamoosed 40 minutes after they were supposed to. Zoe and Isobel are not going to get any support from Airbnb in trying to extract additional money from the guest. Well, that's what I reckon anyway. It does need to be mentioned in the review, though. If I were Zoe and Isobel, I would stick with the 10am departure but book the cleaner for 11am. That allows for tardiness. Or do what I do and never have same day departure/arrivals - it means less angst all round.
Anne
Scott - 40 minutes is a long time when your 1. Outside waiting 2. Cleaning services only have do much time alloted. 15 minutes is reasonable and polite guests will be very thankful not rude and lying.
scott
Of course 40 minutes is a long time for a cleaner to be standing outside, but Airbnb are not going to saddle up and pursue the guests over a 40 minute overstay. I think what annoyed Zoe more than anything was the fact that the guests were not at all contrite. Anyway, Zoe has moved on and is trying to forget about it all.
Marie & Alec
Thanks Jeannette! I will add this to my rental agreement.
Jeannette
Sure! I think though -- it is implicit -- but yeah, clobber your guests w. the facts.
Marie & Alec
I had a guest (JJ) too that stayed for 2 weeks, extended their stay and checked out at 12:50, our standard check out is by 11:00am. I was slightly annoyed because they knew I had someone else coming in that same day. The place was a mess and the next guest arrived at 130pm they were early.
I had to hire someone to help me clean up.
Then (JJ) came back and book for another week. When it was time to check out they texted me at 1130 to ask if they could stay 1-2 hrs more. I was annoyed again. They didn't leave until 3pm. I contemplated on charging them but I decided against it.
I thanked GOD for the financial blessings and glad that the honeymoon was over.
Keith
So the same guest did the same thing to you twice? How/why would you let this happen? Haven't you communicated with them at least via private feedback that their behavior is unacceptable? The 2nd time why did you allow them to stay. They should have known better and your training this guest to abuse hosts. This isn't helpful to anyone.
Marie & Alec
No I didn't respond to their text hoping they would leave but they didn't. I do have check out instructions posted on the fridge. Yes I'm a sucker.. Things we do and sacrifice just for the just for a review. And no review just yet.
Ann
I would not hesitate to charge them. But document everything on the air bnb interface not text messages on your phone. They use that to make judgment calls. Record conversations , take pictures, time stamp conversations etc. Do everything you can because the one with the most documentation wins. I learned that from my ex husband who was a successful litigator . plus they will leave you negative feedback anyway and there is an option on the feedback for you to provide a rebuttal
Ann
And so sorry that this happened to you but I find especially with young people and big groups that they just want a bargain and to mess with you and really don't give a sh***t about reviews or respecting guidelines but they care about money
Isobel
There have been a few comments regarding how early my check-out time is, and I just wanted to clarify that in my House Manual, where I also state that there is a $50.00 penalty if guests fail to vacate the property on time, I also say that I am more than happy to offer late check-outs at no additional cost, but this has to be organised with me in advance of a guest's stay (and is subject to availability). I'm flexible when I can be, but we really do need, in most instances, that 10.00 AM to 3.00 PM window to clean the whole property. Guests are able to use their discretion when making a booking - if a check-out time is too early, then perhaps they shouldn't book the place to being with. And, if upon booking, or at any time prior to arrival, they feel that they might need extra time to leave, they're more than aware that they can get in touch to try to extend check-out with us.
Our housekeeper is happy to wait 5 to 10 minutes for guests to leave after check-out time, but this was an issue where the guests had no plans to go until they were aware we knew they hadn't checked out, lied about having departed, thinking they wouldn't get caught, and not once expressed they were sorry for the inconvenience. To the contrary, they were quite rude about the whole matter. Had they been somewhat more gracious and apologetic, I wouldn't have been quite so angry about the issue. However, after waiting until past midnight the day before their arrival, because they couldn't confirm check-in arrangements, and after giving them a $15.00 discount as a gesture at the time of booking, being told that I was unreasonable and "threatening" them, and that I was eager to get more money out of them by reminding them of things they should have already been aware of, put me in a terrible mood for most of yesterday.
For the sake of not wanting to deal with this guest any further, I'm not pursuing the penalty fee, as further interactions will simply put me into a horrible mood again.
Anne
I rent a whole house that takes 4 hours to thoroughly clean for the next guests. I have check out at 11am with a 4pm check in. I based my times on when people could arrive from Seattle/Vancouver and then leave and grab lunch somewhere else on the day they leave.