Post by High Priestess on Feb 11, 2016 15:03:20 GMT
Cynthia shared Feb 11 2016
www.airbnb.com/groups/content/content-207403
Alternative lifestyle couples
I have had several requests from gay men couples recently and I just didn't know how to handle saying no. This was a dilemma because I know many and have no problem with their lifestyle until it came time to have them sleeping in the home I'm sharing with them. Now it's not sitting well with me having two gay men sleeping in my house. It is my home, I would gladly have a gay couple friend visit but can't deal with the rest of the package under my roof. I'd like to know if this has been a problem for anyone else?? I finally blatantly stated in my description, no alternative lifestyle couples. Is there a better way to handle this issue?
Cynthia2 hours ago
I will also add that with the marriage of gay couples it is often hard to distinguish this lifestyle since some will call their partners their wives. Rather than try to guess, I felt a statement in the description would weed out this type of guest and not leave me trying to figure out "partner" wife" etc.
Reply Like Delete
Deborah
Deborahan hour ago
Cynthia, I'm laughing here, because I dont' think you realized it, but you have posted your question on how to weed out gay couples, on a major Airbnb Group moderated/organized by two gay people -- myself and Andrew. I think Andrew, who has previously posted on this group about how he has not been welcomed at several Airbnb listings when asking to come with his husband, would have something interesting to say in response to your question.
I support hosts being able to decline anyone for any reason whatsoever, since it's their home and it's important that they feel comfortable there. However I would also say that one of the benefits of hosting people , is that it opens our hearts and minds when we get to meet many different people from all over the world.
Cynthia, is there some reason why intimacy between gay couples is more problematic for you than the same between heterosexual couples? It seems that you have gay friends, so you know gay people. How would your gay friends feel, do you think, if they heard you asking this question?
If intimacy between gay individuals is difficult for you, I'm thinking maybe it is best if you consider not hosting couples, and just stick with single individuals. I would suggest that any couple, whether gay or not, could turn out to present "issues" for some hosts if their intimacy becomes too loud or too much all over the house (eg in common areas) or perhaps present "boundary" issues or other issues for you. It's fine to have only single visitors, quieter too (I allow only single visitors) and I think this would help resolve your difficulty without having to say anything that hurts or offends other people -- including your gay friends if they were to see your Airbnb listing description.
Keep in mind too that though it's legal to discriminate on any basis whatsoever when you rent out space in your own home, it's illegal to make "discriminatory statements" in advertising or directly to people. So you do not want to say anything such as "no gay couples" or you could be sued and/or potentially banned from Airbnb as a host. (Airbnb did kick out one host who evicted a gay couple from her home, on the basis that they were gay).
Andrew will surely have some more comments.
Carrie
If you don't want gay couples (or anyone else for that matter) you need to explicitly say so. There's just no other way. The whole "alternative lifestyle" euphemism is kind of silly - most gay people spend their lives doing laundry, going to work, feeding their kids & grocery shopping - how is that an "alternative lifestyle?" You need to say "we don't feel comfortable hosing gay people (or unmarried couples, or people who vote Republican...) in our home" if that's what you mean.
You absolutely CAN ban people from staying in your home. For example, many hosts specify female guests only, and that is allowable.
Of course, know that may very well exclude more open minded straight people, as well. Many people (myself included) would never stay with a host who feels that way.
Deborah
To explicitly state no gay couples would be something that in many states, would not be legal, and I think a host who stated that in their listing description would quite likely be flagged and reported to Airbnb, who might well kick out such a host. One can choose not to host people, but one has to be very careful not to make discriminatory statements due not only to the legalities involved, but also because of how offensive this is to many.
Carrie
It is legal in your own home to exclude whoever you want - even based on race, sex, etc.
Carrie
You're also allowed to specify age: no guests under 25, etc., is permissible in your own home.
Dave & Deb
I think the best way to handle it is to NOT HOST! I am not sure I would consider being gay as an alternative lifestyle. If I saw this last line in your listing, I would flag it to Airbnb.
Deborah
Right -- I don't view being gay as an alternative lifestyle -- alternative suggests choice, and being gay is not a choice. "Alternative lifestyle" to me connotes something like someone who lives full time in a camper van made out of recycled tin cans, and hand out free sheets of their poetry and paint their philosophical beliefs in scarlet red paint on the sides of their vehicle.
Clare
Shame on you! I've hosted many gay couples and they are the best! Your loss, my friend.
Cynthia
Wow, I appreciate all this feedback. I mean no offense to anyone personally. In answer to how my gay friends would feel about not wanting to host gay couples it would of course hurt them. As I mentioned, socializing is one thing for me but when it came down to the intimacy issues in my home, that became a true surprise to me. I apologize but this is how I feel. Rather shocking to me as their are several family members on my husband's side who are gay, lesbian. I am a very good friend to at least 3 people who are trans gender. I thought I had an open mind until I had recent inquiries. Then I came face to face with this part of me who didn't want to deal with the intimacy issues. Nor would I want to deal with a straight couple having sex all over shared common spaces of my home. I'm not a prude but I feel when you're a guest in someone's home you don't behave in common areas like you were alone in a rented space. I love a lot of gay people for the wonderful humans they are. I'm so sorry I have come up against this wall. Yet, I appreciate the opportunity this has given me to learn about myself. I had thought of just listing for singles only. How is discriminating against alternative lifestyle any different that listing for example, women only? I appreciate your help with this. I am new so no offense Andrew and Deborah! For the records, I really enjoy my gay friends. They love me as I love them so I know they would understand that this is my problem and has nothing to do with them as people. Anymore suggestions?
Carrie
Having sex all over common areas? Who does that? Gay people are CERTAINLY NOT more likely to do so than straight people.
Deborah
I appreciate your sincerity Cynthia and your awareness that this is, as you say, your issue, and one that surprises you and gives you an opportunity to learn about yourself. If you continue with a spirit of curiosity about your responses to gay couple intimacy in your home, or your worries/discomfort, and explore that, I think this will be valuable, quite apart from any decisions you make about how to run your house and to whom to rent.
Clare
Well, I think you are making a big assumption that gay people would be having sex all over your shared common space. If you were renting a space, would you be having sex in that manner? The big stereotype is that gay men and women are always focused on sex. Not true...they're just like anyone else. Totally a non issue with my gay guests.
Ed & Hugh
See www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article(phone number hidden)/Airbnb-host-kicked-two-wedding-guests-home-finding-gay-couple-struck-site.html
Also, you'll likely want to consider whether your profile's use of the terms "warm, sensitive, and mature" accurately reflect how you feel about the diversity of guests in our Airbnb community.
Deb
here's a better link, the comments on the article might be helpful to Cynthia: dailym.ai/1V6puXy
Deb
Deb
This post makes me so sad. My brother is a kind, wonderful, funny, happy, beautiful person. His partner is an award winning journalist at the Wall Street Journal who would wow anyone with clever conversations from his vast experience. It would be your loss to choose not to host people like them due to misguided ignorance and prejudice.
Deborah
Cynthia -- I think the rationale for permitting people to advertise that they only want guests/renters of a certain gender (if they live in the home themselves) is similar to reasons for having gendered bathrooms or gendered shower areas -- (although with the rise of the awareness of transgender issues and related politics, I think we are moving to more unisex bathrooms) . "Alternative lifestyles" don't pose the same issues to a person, for instance, as being expected to strip nude and shower in the same shower room as someone of the other gender -- or share a sauna with someone else, etc. Yet, the question remains open as to how well these gendered facilities have worked not only for transgender individuals, but for gays and lesbians --
Since you do express some concern about straight couple intimacy getting out of bounds as well, I really think your best bet is to list for singles only. I really don't see much difference between intimacy of straight couples vs that of gay ones --- if you notice you are getting psychologically triggered by something that might be valuable to explore to discover the root of it. If you want you can also have rules that state that couples are asked to not use common spaces for private acts/intimacy. That seems an appropriate boundary to draw -- but draw it for everyone, not just people of one sexual orientation.
If you want to know clearly who is planning to come, you can do something which I really recommend all hosts do, which is to state to the guest doing the booking, that the names, ages and contact info for all guests who will be on your property, must be disclosed at the time of booking, and that no one who is not named and paid for in advance will be permitted inside. Once you see who is planning to come and stay in the same room, you can decide what you want to do or what you want to ask.
Rick
Clare has made a good point...when you travel, are you having sex all over?? It's not something most people think about when entering someone else's space...Your homophobia is both shocking and hypocritical----it's the old "some of my best friends are black" scenario. ---in the vein of "they are so nice, but what they do is icky".... I have no words
Donna
Cynthia, you have to be congratulated on admitting where you're at and at the very least sounding open minded to be offered feedback. I have to concur with Deborah that trying to weed out the entire gay community by saying you don't want alternative lifestyle couples is missing the target. There are lots of communities of people that consider themselves living an alternative lifestyle, myself included... that would have no idea you meant "no gays."
I think you have a wonderful opportunity for growth and examination here, and I encourage you to root out your sense of squeamishness towards gay sex happening in your home. Frankly, I might be not want to linger on the visuals of grossly overweight hetro couples, married or otherwise, getting busy in my bedroom, for instance, but I absolutely don't "go" there when I have overweight guests. My point is, we all have visuals we don't enjoy thinking about when it comes to sex. But let us not allow that to inform our business decisions while hosting. God, like it's any of our business! I'm welcoming, eager to be a great host, and hope that each and every guest returns home with some great memories. That is the core nature of being a host. I'm resolute in what IS my business and what IS NOT my business, as hosting is a business. The difference between discriminating against gay couples (which is NOT an alternative lifestyle) and having a listing for single women travelers only, is enormous. There may come a day in my children's future when asking what gender someone is, may be an affront. But today, in 2016 gender still defines us, and as hosts; I think it's non-discriminatory to choose one or the other if that suits our listing.
Deborah
I dont' view Cynthia as "homophobic" or hypocritical -- I think she's being honest. Cynthia is making honest statements about her own discomforts and her surprise at "coming face to face with this part of her" and I wouldn't want to dismiss or throw accusations at anyone who is genuinely struggling with something. And it is my view that people have a right to be comfortable in their home, and to arrange things so that they are comfortable. So I support Cynthia in doing that, but I would just encourage doing it in a way that is likely to be least upsetting or hurtful to others.
My two cents: What I found so amusing was that Cynthia posted this on the one existing AIrbnb group moderated by two gay people: New Hosts Forum, with Andrew and I as moderators. I'm curious what her reaction will be when she reads our responses, as well as other group members' responses !!
www.airbnb.com/groups/content/content-207403
Alternative lifestyle couples
I have had several requests from gay men couples recently and I just didn't know how to handle saying no. This was a dilemma because I know many and have no problem with their lifestyle until it came time to have them sleeping in the home I'm sharing with them. Now it's not sitting well with me having two gay men sleeping in my house. It is my home, I would gladly have a gay couple friend visit but can't deal with the rest of the package under my roof. I'd like to know if this has been a problem for anyone else?? I finally blatantly stated in my description, no alternative lifestyle couples. Is there a better way to handle this issue?
Cynthia2 hours ago
I will also add that with the marriage of gay couples it is often hard to distinguish this lifestyle since some will call their partners their wives. Rather than try to guess, I felt a statement in the description would weed out this type of guest and not leave me trying to figure out "partner" wife" etc.
Reply Like Delete
Deborah
Deborahan hour ago
Cynthia, I'm laughing here, because I dont' think you realized it, but you have posted your question on how to weed out gay couples, on a major Airbnb Group moderated/organized by two gay people -- myself and Andrew. I think Andrew, who has previously posted on this group about how he has not been welcomed at several Airbnb listings when asking to come with his husband, would have something interesting to say in response to your question.
I support hosts being able to decline anyone for any reason whatsoever, since it's their home and it's important that they feel comfortable there. However I would also say that one of the benefits of hosting people , is that it opens our hearts and minds when we get to meet many different people from all over the world.
Cynthia, is there some reason why intimacy between gay couples is more problematic for you than the same between heterosexual couples? It seems that you have gay friends, so you know gay people. How would your gay friends feel, do you think, if they heard you asking this question?
If intimacy between gay individuals is difficult for you, I'm thinking maybe it is best if you consider not hosting couples, and just stick with single individuals. I would suggest that any couple, whether gay or not, could turn out to present "issues" for some hosts if their intimacy becomes too loud or too much all over the house (eg in common areas) or perhaps present "boundary" issues or other issues for you. It's fine to have only single visitors, quieter too (I allow only single visitors) and I think this would help resolve your difficulty without having to say anything that hurts or offends other people -- including your gay friends if they were to see your Airbnb listing description.
Keep in mind too that though it's legal to discriminate on any basis whatsoever when you rent out space in your own home, it's illegal to make "discriminatory statements" in advertising or directly to people. So you do not want to say anything such as "no gay couples" or you could be sued and/or potentially banned from Airbnb as a host. (Airbnb did kick out one host who evicted a gay couple from her home, on the basis that they were gay).
Andrew will surely have some more comments.
Carrie
If you don't want gay couples (or anyone else for that matter) you need to explicitly say so. There's just no other way. The whole "alternative lifestyle" euphemism is kind of silly - most gay people spend their lives doing laundry, going to work, feeding their kids & grocery shopping - how is that an "alternative lifestyle?" You need to say "we don't feel comfortable hosing gay people (or unmarried couples, or people who vote Republican...) in our home" if that's what you mean.
You absolutely CAN ban people from staying in your home. For example, many hosts specify female guests only, and that is allowable.
Of course, know that may very well exclude more open minded straight people, as well. Many people (myself included) would never stay with a host who feels that way.
Deborah
To explicitly state no gay couples would be something that in many states, would not be legal, and I think a host who stated that in their listing description would quite likely be flagged and reported to Airbnb, who might well kick out such a host. One can choose not to host people, but one has to be very careful not to make discriminatory statements due not only to the legalities involved, but also because of how offensive this is to many.
Carrie
It is legal in your own home to exclude whoever you want - even based on race, sex, etc.
Carrie
You're also allowed to specify age: no guests under 25, etc., is permissible in your own home.
Dave & Deb
I think the best way to handle it is to NOT HOST! I am not sure I would consider being gay as an alternative lifestyle. If I saw this last line in your listing, I would flag it to Airbnb.
Deborah
Right -- I don't view being gay as an alternative lifestyle -- alternative suggests choice, and being gay is not a choice. "Alternative lifestyle" to me connotes something like someone who lives full time in a camper van made out of recycled tin cans, and hand out free sheets of their poetry and paint their philosophical beliefs in scarlet red paint on the sides of their vehicle.
Clare
Shame on you! I've hosted many gay couples and they are the best! Your loss, my friend.
Cynthia
Wow, I appreciate all this feedback. I mean no offense to anyone personally. In answer to how my gay friends would feel about not wanting to host gay couples it would of course hurt them. As I mentioned, socializing is one thing for me but when it came down to the intimacy issues in my home, that became a true surprise to me. I apologize but this is how I feel. Rather shocking to me as their are several family members on my husband's side who are gay, lesbian. I am a very good friend to at least 3 people who are trans gender. I thought I had an open mind until I had recent inquiries. Then I came face to face with this part of me who didn't want to deal with the intimacy issues. Nor would I want to deal with a straight couple having sex all over shared common spaces of my home. I'm not a prude but I feel when you're a guest in someone's home you don't behave in common areas like you were alone in a rented space. I love a lot of gay people for the wonderful humans they are. I'm so sorry I have come up against this wall. Yet, I appreciate the opportunity this has given me to learn about myself. I had thought of just listing for singles only. How is discriminating against alternative lifestyle any different that listing for example, women only? I appreciate your help with this. I am new so no offense Andrew and Deborah! For the records, I really enjoy my gay friends. They love me as I love them so I know they would understand that this is my problem and has nothing to do with them as people. Anymore suggestions?
Carrie
Having sex all over common areas? Who does that? Gay people are CERTAINLY NOT more likely to do so than straight people.
Deborah
I appreciate your sincerity Cynthia and your awareness that this is, as you say, your issue, and one that surprises you and gives you an opportunity to learn about yourself. If you continue with a spirit of curiosity about your responses to gay couple intimacy in your home, or your worries/discomfort, and explore that, I think this will be valuable, quite apart from any decisions you make about how to run your house and to whom to rent.
Clare
Well, I think you are making a big assumption that gay people would be having sex all over your shared common space. If you were renting a space, would you be having sex in that manner? The big stereotype is that gay men and women are always focused on sex. Not true...they're just like anyone else. Totally a non issue with my gay guests.
Ed & Hugh
See www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article(phone number hidden)/Airbnb-host-kicked-two-wedding-guests-home-finding-gay-couple-struck-site.html
Also, you'll likely want to consider whether your profile's use of the terms "warm, sensitive, and mature" accurately reflect how you feel about the diversity of guests in our Airbnb community.
Deb
here's a better link, the comments on the article might be helpful to Cynthia: dailym.ai/1V6puXy
Deb
Deb
This post makes me so sad. My brother is a kind, wonderful, funny, happy, beautiful person. His partner is an award winning journalist at the Wall Street Journal who would wow anyone with clever conversations from his vast experience. It would be your loss to choose not to host people like them due to misguided ignorance and prejudice.
Deborah
Cynthia -- I think the rationale for permitting people to advertise that they only want guests/renters of a certain gender (if they live in the home themselves) is similar to reasons for having gendered bathrooms or gendered shower areas -- (although with the rise of the awareness of transgender issues and related politics, I think we are moving to more unisex bathrooms) . "Alternative lifestyles" don't pose the same issues to a person, for instance, as being expected to strip nude and shower in the same shower room as someone of the other gender -- or share a sauna with someone else, etc. Yet, the question remains open as to how well these gendered facilities have worked not only for transgender individuals, but for gays and lesbians --
Since you do express some concern about straight couple intimacy getting out of bounds as well, I really think your best bet is to list for singles only. I really don't see much difference between intimacy of straight couples vs that of gay ones --- if you notice you are getting psychologically triggered by something that might be valuable to explore to discover the root of it. If you want you can also have rules that state that couples are asked to not use common spaces for private acts/intimacy. That seems an appropriate boundary to draw -- but draw it for everyone, not just people of one sexual orientation.
If you want to know clearly who is planning to come, you can do something which I really recommend all hosts do, which is to state to the guest doing the booking, that the names, ages and contact info for all guests who will be on your property, must be disclosed at the time of booking, and that no one who is not named and paid for in advance will be permitted inside. Once you see who is planning to come and stay in the same room, you can decide what you want to do or what you want to ask.
Rick
Clare has made a good point...when you travel, are you having sex all over?? It's not something most people think about when entering someone else's space...Your homophobia is both shocking and hypocritical----it's the old "some of my best friends are black" scenario. ---in the vein of "they are so nice, but what they do is icky".... I have no words
Donna
Cynthia, you have to be congratulated on admitting where you're at and at the very least sounding open minded to be offered feedback. I have to concur with Deborah that trying to weed out the entire gay community by saying you don't want alternative lifestyle couples is missing the target. There are lots of communities of people that consider themselves living an alternative lifestyle, myself included... that would have no idea you meant "no gays."
I think you have a wonderful opportunity for growth and examination here, and I encourage you to root out your sense of squeamishness towards gay sex happening in your home. Frankly, I might be not want to linger on the visuals of grossly overweight hetro couples, married or otherwise, getting busy in my bedroom, for instance, but I absolutely don't "go" there when I have overweight guests. My point is, we all have visuals we don't enjoy thinking about when it comes to sex. But let us not allow that to inform our business decisions while hosting. God, like it's any of our business! I'm welcoming, eager to be a great host, and hope that each and every guest returns home with some great memories. That is the core nature of being a host. I'm resolute in what IS my business and what IS NOT my business, as hosting is a business. The difference between discriminating against gay couples (which is NOT an alternative lifestyle) and having a listing for single women travelers only, is enormous. There may come a day in my children's future when asking what gender someone is, may be an affront. But today, in 2016 gender still defines us, and as hosts; I think it's non-discriminatory to choose one or the other if that suits our listing.
Deborah
I dont' view Cynthia as "homophobic" or hypocritical -- I think she's being honest. Cynthia is making honest statements about her own discomforts and her surprise at "coming face to face with this part of her" and I wouldn't want to dismiss or throw accusations at anyone who is genuinely struggling with something. And it is my view that people have a right to be comfortable in their home, and to arrange things so that they are comfortable. So I support Cynthia in doing that, but I would just encourage doing it in a way that is likely to be least upsetting or hurtful to others.
My two cents: What I found so amusing was that Cynthia posted this on the one existing AIrbnb group moderated by two gay people: New Hosts Forum, with Andrew and I as moderators. I'm curious what her reaction will be when she reads our responses, as well as other group members' responses !!