After Andrew left the forum, he went in and deleted many of his posts on the forum. So I want to restore some of the ones like this thread where without his posts being contained the thread makes less sense. Here's the entirety of the original post:
Airbnb closes account of host who turned down transgender guestDeborah:
becks brought this CC post and the related news story to my attention today through another post here on this forum.
A host named Patricia from Minneapolis posted that Airbnb had suddenly shut down her account without explanation. She was completely at a loss as to why this occurred. At the end of the post on the CC, an Airbnb user named "Blah" (hmmm?) posted a link to a news story that revealed the reason her account was permanently closed. She had declined a transgender individual, and made the mistake of saying something about her adolescent son potentially being in discomfort. Note - this dialogue with that guest, happened at least one year ago, maybe more. ABB unfortunately will never tell hosts why it boots them. They have to find out third hand. Or as in this case, read about themselves in the news!! (Geez! To find out that way....I have to feel sorry for anyone who does!)
Even a sensitivity and awareness of the current political climate would not have helped Patricia, as the events which are described in the article, took place at least a year ago, perhaps more. THe trans guest merely took advantage of the new political climate to get the host ousted over the old dialogue.
Given the very INTENSE political pressure on Airbnb to take a stand against all forms of at least overt or semi-overt discrimination, this turn of events is not surprising...however, I have some concerns about how these decisions by Airbnb may be made, and the level of "discriminatory content" that may be needed to cause a termination of an account.
In any case, it certainly behooves all hosts to do as many of us in the host community have continually advocated, which is to not give a reason when declining someone. Heaven help you if you might say slightly the wrong thing in the decline and have your words twisted to use against you. No host should underestimate the intense political pressure and scrutiny that Airbnb is under at this particular time, over issues of discrimination -- not just racism, but also perceived anti-gay or anti-transgender discrimination....and potentially (though we have not yet seen a case) also discrimination of other forms. This intense pressure and the intense scrutiny that could be applied whenever someone feels they have been discriminated against, should lead to the utmost care taken in hosts' messages to guests when declining. I advocate that absolutely no reason be given when declining.
I also suggest that it will help all hosts to have "on record" some evidence that they have accepted reservations from guests of all races/ethnicities, sexual orientations, and gender identities. While guest race/ethnicity may be evident in their profile, their sexual orientation or transgender status may be nowhere evident -- for instance, neither of the two transgender guests I have had, stated anything about this in their messages or on their profile. Having such evidence may not be sufficient though, if an instance of misunderstanding were to arise, since when Airbnb chooses to ban a host, they seem to do so without explanation, and seem to offer no recourse or opportunity to appeal the decision. However, it could be beneficial if there is simply a concern and Airbnb decides to investigate past reservations of a particular host. So please be very careful in the language you use!
As an example of a potential statement that could be misinterpreted as discriminatory and used against a host: though I'm lesbian myself, I dislike the term "queer" (I'm of an older generation than those who tend to use this word). . If I were to foolishly say something to that effect in a message when declining someone, I could end up being accused of anti-gay discrimination and banned from Airbnb.
community.airbnb.com/t5/Hosts/I-don-t-know-why-my-account-was-disabled/m-p/103289#M30887
www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/06/airbnb-criticism-transgender-guest-denied-super-hostScreenshot 1803.pngScreenshot 1789.png
Last Edit: Jun 7, 2016 at 9:44pm by Deborah
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Jun 6, 2016 at 6:05pm maria likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 6, 2016 at 6:05pm
I think it's too heavy a price to pay...to lose one's hosting career, all because one made the mistake of being overly honest. Who knows, too -- Patricia may have had trans friends, be totally fine with trans people -- just was concerned about her son, and maybe he was not so comfortable with trans people at his adolescent age. Is she responsible for an adolescent's view on/feelings about transgenderism? Must she pay for that with the loss of her business? I say that seems excessive punishment.
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Jun 6, 2016 at 8:49pm maria and shaun like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 6, 2016 at 8:49pm
I was thinking more about this topic, and realized, that Airbnb really needs to clarify its anti-discrimination policy.
For instance, I was reflecting tonight -- what would Airbnb's position be on a woman host who decided that she only wanted female guests? (We in the host community have seen several such hosts...some women feel safer accepting only women, and this is fully legal under US law, even to state in one's ad). Or what of the meat-eating host who felt offended when turned down by a vegan or kosher host who said that they wanted no meat or no kosher meat in their home? What would Airbnb's position on such things be? We really don't have clarification from Airbnb on what position they would take. In fact Airbnb's anti-discrimination policy is much, much too vague. THey say,
"We prohibit content that promotes discrimination, bigotry, racism, hatred, harassment or harm against any individual or group, and we require all users to comply with local laws and regulations."
(see here:
www.airbnb.com/help/article/483/what-is-airbnb-s-anti-discrimination-policy )
Yet they have not defined any of these terms. State and federal laws on discrimination always define what categories are protected from discrmination, eg see this one by Minnesota: mn.gov/mdhr/yourrights/index.html
We might assume that Airbnb's anti-discrimination policy is defined by local law, since they here refer to local law, and yet, they have taken a position, in their previous banning of a TX host who evicted a gay couple, sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/04/30/airbnb-bans-host-who-evicted-gay-couple-from-texas-home/ and in this case in MN over a transgender guest, where clearly they are not going by local laws. TX has no law banning anti-gay discrimination, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Texas and MN has no law banning discrimination against transgender individuals. mn.gov/mdhr/yourrights/index.html So if Airbnb is saying that local laws apply, but then taking actions against hosts which are not based on hosts' local laws, without clarifying their own policy, I think that is unfair to hosts. Hosts need and deserve clarity on this important topic.
I think Airbnb needs to make its policy much much clearer, because just to state that they "prohibit content promoting discrimination" is far too vague. For the meat-eaters could feel discriminated against by the vegan host who wants no meat in the house, pet owners could feel discriminated against by the no-pets listing, the male nudist who received a reply from a female host that nudists aren't permitted at her house could feel discriminated against, loud people could categorically feel discriminated against by a host whose listing emphasized quiet and the desire for quiet guests, atheists could feel set up to be discriminated against if a host stated she was a Buddhist meditator, and even more cogently, any family who reads "no children" Or "Not child friendly" could argue this is discriminatory. And certainly those who would prefer only to host one gender, are left in a very confused position, not knowing if they are "safe" stating this in their listing. That is not right and not fair to such hosts.
Airbnb please define your anti-discrimination policy. What do you mean by "we prohibit content that promotes discrimination....against....any individual or group. " I have never yet seen a state or federal anti-discrimination policy that prohibited discrimination without stating who/what categories of people this law covered.
Last Edit: Jun 6, 2016 at 10:32pm by Deborah
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Jun 7, 2016 at 4:12am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 7, 2016 at 4:12am
A host who would tell a prospective guest that their presence would put her "adolescent son in discomfort" would have to be spectacularly tone-deaf in the language of hospitality. No matter what the gender identity, sexual orientation, race, or religion of the guest was, the wording was inappropriate and would have caused even a thick-skinned person some emotional distress. I know what it's like to be told I'm not welcome in someone's home because children are there - it's a horrible thing to tell someone. I don't want to be part of a club that would have a douchebag like Patricia for a member.
Airbnb lives or dies by its brand, and it's completely justified in terminating the accounts of hosts who represent it poorly. Such an action does not cause the host to "lose her hosting career" - the host is fully in charge of her own career - it just denies her the ability to harness the Airbnb brand to her business. We as hosts are only reviewed by the guests who actually stay with us, but from Airbnb's perspective the experiences of all the other guests who view our listings or contact us should also matter. And that's another area where I think they need greater clarity.
Currently, Airbnb offers no guidance about how to decline guests. Is it OK to lie and say the property is "not available" and still keep the dates open and offer them to other guests? Is it OK to tell a guest you're "uncomfortable" with them? Is it OK to decline without a response? All of these are presented as options, and any of them could leave a guest justifiably feeling they have been discriminated against. Even as someone highly experienced in customer service, I sometimes find it difficult to write a Decline message that comes across as reasonable and respectful, and there are bound to be thousands of hosts with no experience in these delicate communication strategies at all. The discrimination complaints are not going to go away, so Airbnb needs to get better at clarifying what reasons for declines and cancellations it finds acceptable and which are out of bounds.
Also, it may well be that hosts who are only willing to accept certain types of people are better off listing on a more specialized platform or advertise independently of a listing-management service.
Last Edit: Jun 7, 2016 at 4:12am by andrew
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Jun 7, 2016 at 4:45am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 7, 2016 at 4:45am
All that said, it would behoove Airbnb to contact hosts when guests have complained about them, rather than ignoring the matter and frantically going into damage-control mode a year later when a tweet goes viral. When it does deem it appropriate to terminate an account, they should have a resolution process that keeps the host and their booked guests reasonably informed about what's going on, and gives sufficient notice to make other arrangements. Sweeping controversial listings into the Memory Hole is not a sustainable strategy, even if their Terms do technically allow for it.
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Jun 7, 2016 at 5:05am via mobile maria likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Olivier François on Jun 7, 2016 at 5:05am
I totally agree with you Deborah, the guest is clearly taking advantage of the situation: 1 year later, with a host who have been honest from the beginning.
Airbnb is not a state, it's a company. They don't make laws, I think in this case it's the hosts who is discriminated. I would be happy to see how airbnb will react if every guest who felt he has been discriminated one time would complain about. This is a very, very, american problem which have nothing to do with discrimination but about brand.
What would happen if some extraterrestrial would absolutely book an airbnb in an area where most people are hostiles? What would be the words to say him it's ok for me but take care about the neighborhood? If he book and be mugged during his stay what would we feel about? I'm sorry for you but if I would have tell you about this could have been interpreted as discrimination, I prefer to be ok with airbnb rules even if I knew perfectly what would happen.
Do you know that in most countries where airbnb is operating, to discriminate people is a sort of common rule. Try to book an airbnb as a coople (man and women) in Marocco without being married and you will see. Try to book as a gay coople in many places in south america or in many portuguese hotel (even big ones, as there is no law against discrimination) some will just allow you twin beds nothing more and many refuse.
Airbnb is only acting for reason of self interest and give a genuine message to every complaining people: you are an airbnb listing neighbour, you felt discriminated, we will ban the host. You are a host which listing have been trashed by a guest go to hell. Airbnb clearly takes side for guests against host without taking any step back.
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Jun 7, 2016 at 5:38am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 7, 2016 at 5:38am
How is the guest "taking advantage"? All she did was tweet a screenshot. She's not demanding compensation, merely contributing her own experience to a hot-button dialogue that was not so heavily discussed one year ago. Even if you feel the host was treated unfairly by Airbnb, that is no reason to make accusations against the guest.
Patricia considers herself a victim of discrimination, but I don't think she knows what the word means. If anything, she's the victim of her own overshare. Many hosts seem oblivious to the fact that they speak in a public capacity when they respond to an inquiry. In what business would it be appropriate to tell a customer you're refusing them service because your child might have uncomfortable thoughts about their genitals?
Airbnb is not removing listings when they receive a discrimination complaint; it's removing listings when they generate bad press. Patricia's message to Petosky qualifies as one; it was indefensible, even though she may well have been ignorant to its intrinsic cruelty. If a listing in South America or Morocco or Portugal has the same effect, I'd expect the same result. But this is a rare case in which the host openly stated that she was discriminating against the guest's gender identity. A vague excuse would not have gone viral on Twitter.
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Jun 7, 2016 at 6:14am via mobile ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Olivier François on Jun 7, 2016 at 6:14am
Andrew,
1- it's not an accusation it's an observation. Why didn't she tweet about 1 year ago?
2- About business interested in customers genitals, too much are when child are involved.
3- They don't write it directly in their rules. They just write guests are due to respect local LAWS or global reglamento. Even in US, Mississipi vote a law 2 month ago which allow companies to refuse to attend customers regarding their sexual orientation if it might hurt their religious conviction.
As you said airbnb react only when it comes in the media and hurt his brand. Fighting against discrimination is a daily fight, airbnb is just acting like a father who discover his son is gay and throw him out only worried about eyes of others. I can't agree with that.
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Jun 7, 2016 at 6:38am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 7, 2016 at 6:38am
Why didn't she tweet about 1 year ago?
Because a year ago, there was not a huge dialogue on Twitter about discrimination on Airbnb, nor was there such a significant dialogue about anti-transgender discrimination. Didn't you read the content of the tweet? She was clearly joining an existing conversation, not initiating a controversy.
About business interested in customers genitals, too much are when child are involved.
I'm sorry, I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean in this sentence.
Fighting against discrimination is a daily fight, airbnb is just acting like a father who discover his son is gay and throw him out only worried about eyes of others. I can't agree with that.
Please refer to my second post above; you'll see, I agree with you on that point. Airbnb should have contacted the host and the guest when the incident was reported, but unfortunately they don't have any kind of process for dealing with those issues. That may well be the easiest way to go about it, but it has consequences. One common piece of advice given in the forums has been to post on Twitter or Facebook whenever you have problems, since Customer Service doesn't act on them quickly enough, since they seem to care more about image control than the quality of their service. And reports like these only enhance that impression; now, many people are skipping CX altogether and going straight to social media for basic help when a button on the website doesn't work.
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Jun 7, 2016 at 6:41am maria and Olivier François like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 7, 2016 at 6:41am
I agree Patricia "overshared" -- and was "tone deaf" -- her comments were in fact insensitive, and she is experiencing the results of that. Yet who among us has not made some mistake in communcation with a guest? As hosts who have been host educators for several years, we have all seen many examples of hosts who make mistakes in how they speak to/work with guests. In fact it sometimes seems that the host who is really prepared to be thoroughly professional and courteous, even in instances when tested and experiencing unpleasant behavior from the guest, is the rarer host, not the typical host.
Airbnb has a vacuous and misleading anti-discrimination statement. Nowhere do they state that it is forbidden to discriminate against transgender individuals. That one should not do this may well be "common sense" for most of us, but as stated I don't think it's fair for them to take drastic action, such as banning a host, when they have not clearly prohibited the type of comments Patricia made, and when they have such a meaningless anti-discrimination statement.
You make a good point Andrew about the difference between discrimination and bad press --- and it's because this guest likely knew what the outcome would be for Patricia, that I am concerned about her bringing this forward one year later, in the red-hot climate we have now. She handed over Patricia knowing she was likely to be a sacrificial lamb, slaughtered so that Airbnb can redeem itself and thereby obtain moral uprightness and cleanness.
Granted that the guest bringing this issue forward has clarified Airbnb's stance on transgender issues, yet a better way to clarify that would be to amend the anti-discrimination statement itself, rather than leave it vague, and merely symbolically (and again vaguely) communicate their anti-discrmination policy through one beheading after another.
Last Edit: Jun 7, 2016 at 6:58am by Deborah
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Jun 7, 2016 at 7:24am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 7, 2016 at 7:24am
More news articles on this story:
www.forbes.com/sites/shelbycarpenter/2016/06/07/trans-woman-airbnb-discrimination-race/#65ae29123196fusion.net/story/310464/airbnb-discrimination-trans/
www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/06/07/airbnb-host-banned-for-denying-transgender-woman-room-after-vira/andrewModerator
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Jun 7, 2016 at 7:50am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 7, 2016 at 7:50am
To quote the Guardian article:
Airbnb responded quite differently in 2015, when Petosky first shared her experience with them privately. “They asked me who she was but didn’t take her off the platform then. She became a super host,” Petosky said. “But now that there’s this larger conversation around Airbnb and race, so I just posted to add the trans perspective.”
I see no fault in what she did here. I don't know is she was aware that Particia's account would be removed, but so what if she did? What did Patricia do to earn this guest's silence? Patricia fell on her own sword here; she has no one to blame but herself, and rather than take some responsibility she predictably sees herself as the discrimination victim. Even has a fellow host - who would really hate to have my account deleted over a single mistake - I strongly object to the notion that Petosky was in any way wrong to speak out about her experience.
For Airbnb's part, their biggest mistake was not dealing with it last year. At least then, they might have been able to intervene in a way that satisfied both parties. But once the press comes calling, there are no good options left. If they leave the account active, it implies that they endorse the actions of the host (which made her prejudices too obvious to be defensible). Then, all the money they've spent advertising as an LGBT-inclusive company is straight down the toilet. And on top of that, Patricia's listing would be a lightning rod for negative attention - ultimately she'd have to delete it herself anyway.
A lot of ships go down over stupid mistakes. If losing a web listing is the worst consequence you have to face, you're pretty lucky. I agree, though, just as with its mass de-listings, it should communicate its policies and standards clearly so that it doesn't have to just shut down listings whenever it gets bad press.
Last Edit: Jun 7, 2016 at 7:52am by andrew
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Jun 7, 2016 at 8:32am Olivier François likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by lambada on Jun 7, 2016 at 8:32am
I agree with Andrew's take on this. I just checked out the news and honestly was baffled by Patricia's response to the transgender's inquiry. In the United States, where discrimination is discussed on a daily basis, there is no excuse not to know that it was very insensitive of her giving that kind of response. On the other hand, I also wonder why the guest needed to reveal that she/he was a transgender? How is that anybody's business? I could see a gay couple would say: Hi, my name is Greg and my husband Tom are coming to visit your city, etc. And the host will just assumed that it is a gay couple. But when you are coming by yourself, do you need to say: I'm a gay single male?? Or a transexual?
So my above take was based on living in the U.S. Now, however, in many countries still, it is actually against the law to be gay. So to most hosts in those countries, it is completely fine to say they are not able to host you if you were gay. I wonder what Airbnb would do in that instance.
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Jun 7, 2016 at 9:15am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 7, 2016 at 9:15am
I can understand why some trans folks choose to disclose their gender experience up front. They are all acutely aware of how many times violence against trans people has been treated with leniency out of the idea that they "tricked" their peers by "pretending" to be cis-gendered. Plenty of people out there regard a transgender woman as a man playing dress-up to deceive others, and I guess Shadi wanted to avoid the horrible moment where her host accused her of misrepresenting herself. And in this particular case, even if Shadi looked enough like a cis-woman to "pass" unnoticed, she's a public figure that a quick internet search will "out" as a trans woman anyway.
It was wrong of Patricia to decline the guest in the manner she did, but had she found out later that the guest was trans and cancelled the booking, it would have been even worse.
About the last question - I have stayed at Airbnb homes in a couple of countries with anti-gay laws (though generally I don't travel in places where such laws are regularly enforced). In these countries, Airbnb's were actually more expensive than other accommodations; I specifically chose them to avoid the hassle of being turned away or mistreated upon arrival. I reasoned that a host choosing to list on a cosmopolitan global website is likelier to be tolerant of outsiders than a more traditional hotel. And actually, I've had no negative experiences or declines from hosts in the least gay-friendly countries; all of the bad apples I've encountered have been hosts in places like France, Germany, and the US.
Generally, though, I think the language on discrimination is purposefully vague so as to allow for some measure of nuance with respect to different countries' laws. But listings that openly advertise that they don't accommodate people of certain races, religions, or orientations don't tend to stay online very long.
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Jun 7, 2016 at 10:07am via mobile ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Olivier François on Jun 7, 2016 at 10:07am
Andrew, when I mentioned genitals, I was thinking that this case could be a thorn in the side of airbnb. The hosts explanation have to deal with education and her need to 'protect' her son and she did it honestly (from an European point of view). I'm quite sure this case will be released by political in this way: who is authorized to decide what is wright/wrong for a child, her mother or a company? Since airbnb policy is vague and they react 1 year after the fact and without telling nothing to the host, I'm quite sure this will be a case study.
DeborahI tend to agree that those who are unaware of the political climate in which they make their comments, are partly to blame for the consequences they experience as a result of "bad press." And given the circumstances in this case, one can see that Airbnb's hand was forced ...I agree, had they dealt with this last year, they could have done so in a way that was less punitive for the host. But at this point, Airbnb had little choice. At the same time, going forward, I am hoping that there will be more clarity.
Particularly with regard to Lambada's point, Airbnb is between a rock and a hard place. Airbnb likely wants to condemn anti-gay discrimination across the board, but there are nations where it is illegal to give shelter to a gay couple. Or to an unmarried couple. Andrew's fortunate experience notwithstanding, Airbnb at the policy level is in a predicament. By attempting worldwide universal enforcement of a policy that makes the most sense in the US and European cultures, Airbnb could stand accused of cultural insensitivity and of placing hosts in some nations in the unfair position that to follow Airbnb policy, they may be violating national law, but to follow national law, they are violating Airbnb's policy.
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Jun 7, 2016 at 1:36pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by helgaparis on Jun 7, 2016 at 1:36pm
I would feel uncomfortable asking a guest his sexual orientation or being told it without asking - it's just too close, too private and has nothing to do with the room rent. What they do in the room or apartment, is the guest's pleasure and the host does not have to know it. I would suppose that a kid old enough to understand that it's an unusual arrangement is also old enough to be told that the world is wider and has other families than father mother and kid.
The host in her response is not so much protecting her son, she is passing a judgment and rubbing it in to the guest. "Your lifestyle is so abnormal that it would be a danger to my kid". The formulation is stupid too: kids don't feel uncomfortable, the parents are, when the kids ask questions and the parents are too ashamed to answer.
I understand the damage control when the event hits the media, but as you said above, airbnb could avoid a lot of problems, when they reacted to complaints by informing the host. What if the host excused herself or offered a free stay in 2015? A totally different press: Airbnb is educating their hosts and reducing discrimination in the world.
Apart from that, I think airbnb is in such a position of market dominance already, that it is dangerous to delist hosts without giving them a reason and a means to contest the decision or correct the error. And as asked above: who judges? They should install a procedure to contest it and to have a known person in charge, like a higher court. Isn't it a principle of most law systems to know your judge, the content of your accusation and to be allowed to defend yourself?
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Jun 7, 2016 at 2:18pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 7, 2016 at 2:18pm
Well, then again, Airbnb has an oversupply of listings in quite a lot of locations now; they can afford to lose quite a lot of them, so there's no real incentive to keep on board the ones that generate an uproar.
Is it Airbnb's place to tell the host how to raise her child? Absolutely not. But at no point did they do so, nor did anyone ask them to. If Airbnb somehow forced a host to admit an unwanted guest to their home, that would certainly be an overreach. But they can reasonably determine that the guest's parenting style, or the way they communicate their prejudices, is incompatible with the experience they want to provide their guests in order to be part of the brand. It's not as though having an Airbnb account is a civil right or an entitlement; frankly I'd be happy if they set the bar a lot higher.
Unfortunately Airbnb has not articulated what a host should do when an inquiry makes them uncomfortable. This makes it harder for us to do the right thing.
I'm not aware of a specific law in any country that would punish accommodation providers for not declining LGBT people. Considering how hostile some countries are, I wouldn't be surprised if it's out there. But in these situations, I'd still argue that renting a room to strangers on a mainstream global platform is a bad idea. Anywhere that the host bears such significant risk and legal responsibility for their guests that they're "forced" to practice this form of discrimination is one where the business is better left to hotels that can offer some anonymity. Ultimately I don't think any company is obliged to respect values of bigotry and intolerance just to do business in certain countries, but generally they tend to do so when it is profitable.
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Jun 7, 2016 at 2:38pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by lambada on Jun 7, 2016 at 2:38pm
Deborah is right in saying that Airbnb is put between a rock and hard place when it comes to discrimination, especially the word discrimination itself is defined differently depending where you are in the world, or culturally. They should have taken advantage of that button 'report this' and have a department to review that on a daily basis, or whatever period. Reacting to complains only after it reaches the media is just unwise and put them into a lot more trouble.
I generally find people screaming: 'I am being discriminated!!' with a grain of salt since often times it was just done to get attention. But in this specific instance, I am siding with the guest, especially with Andrew's explanation on the reason why she felt the need to reveal her transgender identity.
Someone who chose to open up her home to welcome strangers should be open minded enough to understand that there different lifestyles out there and as long as it is legal to do so, it is risky for her to voice her opinion publicly.
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Jun 12, 2016 at 9:13am helgaparis and shaun like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 12, 2016 at 9:13am
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Jun 12, 2016 at 9:49am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 12, 2016 at 9:49am
Andrew, thank you for sharing that!! I like that and agree. THat is kind of the guest Shadi to say that she didn't think the host should be banned. To me, it also makes much more sense for a company which is all about hospitality and welcoming, belonging, to demonstrate some hospitality to hosts by giving examples of how hosts can be educated and make amends, rather than having to be banned like criminals. If we really believe in healing the issues that are at the basis of discriminatory statements/acts, (and thus working to build not only a better Airbnb but more tolerant communities everywhere) we can do that much more effectively by means of education, than by severe punishments.
I think that Airbnb's instant total ban on hosts is primarily a response to political pressure, including calls by some for "zero tolerance." I dislike the phrase "zero tolerance" as it suggests rigidity, inflexibility, lack of investigation/appeals process, a harsh and punitive approach rather than generosity/hospitality. Zero tolerance would make more sense being applied to particularly egregious incidents.
Last Edit: Jun 12, 2016 at 9:51am by Deborah
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Jun 12, 2016 at 12:54pm Deborah likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by linda on Jun 12, 2016 at 12:54pm
Just today there has been a horrible incident which took the lives of many people because of prejudice, ethnic bias, and hatred in Florida. Personally, I believe that sharing our homes makes us a step closer to opening our hearts to peoples that are different from ourselves, and opening our minds realizing we are all from same tree root, human beings.
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Jun 12, 2016 at 1:45pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 12, 2016 at 1:45pm
I agree Linda -- I think that this is really one of the most beautiful things about home sharing, is that we can open up our hearts along with our homes, and in welcoming different kinds of people, we can learn about them, and they about us. This is something the Airbnb founders themselves have said -- that home sharing helps bring about peace on earth. Many of the people who stay in my home, are not people I would ordinarily meet in the circles where I travel. So my circles can be expanded through my welcoming them to my house. And I think that if guests saw things this way too, there would be fewer trivial complaints about a cobweb in the corner or an overgrown shrubbery in the front yard!
That was quite a horrible event today. Said to be the worst mass shooting in US history -- all (apparently) because a man associated with the terrorist group ISIS became outraged about seeing gay men kissing. Particularly when seeing such extreme examples of hate, it feels all the more important to me to stand for love and acceptance, building bridges and fostering communication between different cultures/ethnicities/religious groups/political beliefs and peoples.
Last Edit: Jun 12, 2016 at 1:58pm by Deborah
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Jun 12, 2016 at 2:03pm maria likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 12, 2016 at 2:03pm
I'm reminded of something I once heard said by the Reverend Alan Jones, Dean of Grace Cathedral in San Francisco. I'm not Christian but I had gone to a workshop he was doing. He said, "There are two choices in life : fear , or love. Choose love. "
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Jun 13, 2016 at 7:08am Deborah and linda like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by maria on Jun 13, 2016 at 7:08am
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Jun 7, 2016 at 5:38am andrew said:
"How is the guest "taking advantage"? All she did was tweet a screenshot. She's not demanding compensation, merely contributing her own experience to a hot-button dialogue that was not so heavily discussed one year ago. Even if you feel the host was treated unfairly by Airbnb, that is no reason to make accusations against the guest.
Patricia considers herself a victim of discrimination, but I don't think she knows what the word means. If anything, she's the victim of her own overshare. Many hosts seem oblivious to the fact that they speak in a public capacity when they respond to an inquiry. In what business would it be appropriate to tell a customer you're refusing them service because your child might have uncomfortable thoughts about their genitals?
Airbnb is not removing listings when they receive a discrimination complaint; it's removing listings when they generate bad press. Patricia's message to Petosky qualifies as one; it was indefensible, even though she may well have been ignorant to its intrinsic cruelty. If a listing in South America or Morocco or Portugal has the same effect, I'd expect the same result. But this is a rare case in which the host openly stated that she was discriminating against the guest's gender identity. A vague excuse would not have gone viral on Twitter".
Andrew, I respect so much your opinion, but I am puzzled. "Oversharing"? I had to re-read this. Wasn't this the base of the USA Army "don't ask, don't tell?" Army would welcome you into their ranks if you did not "overshare." That was just wrong.
It is shame, but some of us Hosts will have to act more like business owners (yeah I know AirBnB is a business), instead of home owners. Darn it, some of us really enjoy welcoming people into our homes. I've just finished cleaning the bedroom of one of our long-term guests (yep, a no no for many Hosts), and I loved to see his surprise when he noticed I also changed the comforter and shams. I would hope before people make any assumptions of me, based on a mistake (even a terrible mistake), not to throw me away immediately; like AirBnB did to this Host.
I also think the penalty imposed by AirBnB (cancellation of listing) was heavy-handed. Also calling a Host a "douche bag" is heavy handed. You cannot make an assessment of a person for one statement (or call it mistep, flaw, infraction, etc.). This is not the way to educate people or get results. Yes, it is the way to gratification, the guest felt vindicated; but some Hosts became fearful of NOT disclosing ever ever again the reason why they decline a reservation. What good came out of this? Hosts that next time will immediately turn down a transgender (don't want trouble) with a false or no excuse. Education is more important than punishing ignorance. Fear just will take over. Punishing this Host probably saved AirBnB's face, good PR for them but it was disingenuous.
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Jun 13, 2016 at 9:03am Deborah and andrew like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by lambada on Jun 13, 2016 at 9:03am
I have to say, I really like Shadi. She's definitely a lot wiser than a bunch of Airbnb decision makers.
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Jun 13, 2016 at 9:12am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 13, 2016 at 9:12am
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Jun 13, 2016 at 7:08am maria said:
What good came out of this? Hosts that next time will immediately turn down a transgender (don't want trouble) with a false or no excuse. Education is more important than punishing ignorance. Fear just will take over. Punishing this Host probably saved AirBnB's face, good PR for them but it was disingenuous.
I do believe this is an important point ---- many who are sitting on the sidelines observing the "discrimination wars", are not thinking, "how do I support diversity, and how can I be more welcoming to everyone?" but rather, focusing on the sudden beheadings of hosts by Airbnb, are thinking to themselves "how do I stay out of trouble?." Of course I'm not speaking of those of us --likely a sizeable majority -- who are already relatively sophisticated and familiar with a wide variety/diversity of guests. But there are many hosts, less sophisticated, living in relatively culturally homogeneous regions, who would just rather avoid "trouble" and so will seek to turn down anyone who they worry might have "an agenda", be overly sensitive to something that could be perceived as offensive, (even a host's political view) and then turn out to have a hair-trigger readiness to call Airbnb and complain about one or another form of unfair treatment. Particularly hosts who are not certain/confident that they know just how to treat someone who is different from themselves in a certain way -- or hosts who are not familiar with or not accepting of the mainline "politically correct" or socially accepted terminologies/views/beliefs -- they may worry that they could fall into a trap. And be caught saying something that turns out to be a "crime". Rather than take this risk, they may perceive that it will simply be safer to decline the guest without explanation. Various "minorities" such as blacks, Muslims, LGBT folks, those with nonstandard gender identity, could see themselves declined more, rather than less, as a result of such fears and wishes to avoid "trouble."
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Jun 13, 2016 at 9:33am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 13, 2016 at 9:33am
"Oversharing"? I had to re-read this. Wasn't this the base of the USA Army "don't ask, don't tell?"
What I referred to there was the host's statement that she was refusing the guest because her 13-year-old son was going through puberty. Not only is it none of the guest's business what's going on in this child's pants; it's extraordinarily insulting to the guest to suggest that an immutable quality of her nature somehow makes her presence a threat to the child's well-being. Unfortunately, the notion that transgender women are actually perverted men who might prey on children is precisely the argument used to defend current laws such as North Carolina's bathroom bill. While this was less of a mainstream topic a year ago (at least for people who get all their information from TV), I'd still have much higher expectations for people selling hospitality to strangers. You need not have any experience with the trans community to recognize the cruelty of Patricia's remarks; you need only imagine how you'd feel receiving such a message yourself, as a fellow human being.
some Hosts became fearful of NOT disclosing ever ever again the reason why they decline a reservation. What good came out of this? Hosts that next time will immediately turn down a transgender (don't want trouble) with a false or no excuse.
Well it would be far preferable if hosts simply didn't decline guests solely for being transgender, or for any other reason based on irrational prejudice. But knowing that some are inevitably going to - yes, I do think communicating their bias is the worst thing to do, and it doesn't bother me one bit if hosts are more apprehensive about that. If we don't stand behind the host who explicitly cancelled a guest due to race , I see no reasonable defense for those who tell their guests they're refusing them due to gender identity or sexual orientation. From the guest perspective, being declined with a value-neutral excuse is merely annoying, but being declined the way Shadi was is actually hurtful.
some of us Hosts will have to act more like business owners (yeah I know AirBnB is a business), instead of home owners. Darn it, some of us really enjoy welcoming people into our homes.
Yes, I am very much OK with that. If we're charging money for our services, then we are in fact running a business. And while I think there's all manner of room for quirky and intimate hosting styles, paying guests have a right to expect a certain degree of professionalism in their experience. Like you, I really enjoy welcoming people into my home - and I also enjoy having my own business. Those things need not be mutually exclusive. It is an honor when someone chooses to spend their hard-earned money for the privilege of staying in my home, and even in the times when I feel the need to decline a Request (usually because it's a third-party booking) I feel obliged to reciprocate that honor with the same respect that I'd wish for as a guest. That's not a new development conditioned by fear; that's just the "Golden Rule" that we all grew up with.
If bigots are scared that it's getting harder to be bigots - fine, let them be. I agree, as does the guest (as quoted in the Tweet above) that Airbnb's solution feels heavy-handed and may have missed an opportunity for education and reconciliation. Given the timing (a year after the guest reported the discrimination privately but a day after the press picked up the story) it was quite transparently a pure PR move. But the consequences of leaving the listing intact would have been a lot harsher for both Airbnb (giving more weight to the argument that the platform supports discrimination) and for Patricia herself (becoming infamous on the internet can have an extreme impact on your personal and professional life - people have lost jobs and experienced traumatic amounts of harassment for far less insensitive remarks). Airbnb should have a better system for processing discrimination reports and offer greater clarity for how hosts should communicate with guests whom they decline.
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Jun 13, 2016 at 9:45am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 13, 2016 at 9:45am
Various "minorities" such as blacks, Muslims, LGBT folks, those with nonstandard gender identity, could see themselves declined more, rather than less, as a result of such fears and wishes to avoid "trouble."
This is an elegant way of saying that minorities are the "real" ones to blame for discrimination against us.
If we hold our tongues about it (and the vast majority of us do), the status quo stands and nothing changes. But then if we speak up, we're accused of promoting "political correctness" - and the "fear of getting in trouble" suddenly becomes regarded as the equivalent to being marginalized for your race, sexuality, etc. So what should we do?
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Jun 13, 2016 at 10:04am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 13, 2016 at 10:04am
I have to get off to work now so not much time to continue the dialogue -- will return later in the day -- but my point was that, unfortunately, I do believe many folks hold this view of feeling reluctant to dip their feet into places where they are worried about getting punished -- and yet your point is certainly equally valid, that "minorities" of various kinds ( I use the quote marks on "minorities" since just who is a minority is relative -- eg, in a Muslim country, a Muslim person isn't in a "minority") are in an unfair catch-22 situation. Darned if we do speak up, and also darned if we dont' speak up.
For me, as a starting point to facilitate movement in a "stuck" place, is to de-emphasize punitive responses to "wrongs" against those in minority groups, and to emphasize instead, educational and mediational approaches. Eg, in this case, what if both Shadi and the host Patricia were invited to engage in a mediated dialogue, and Shadi could educate Patricia about how she wanted to be treated, and Patricia could listen and respond, and Airbnb could do something to facilitate this whole process. Patricia wouldn't have to be "banned", but could offer to have Shadi come stay with her or have another transgender guest come and stay with her, and Airbnb could publicize that this had happened and that someone had learned and made amends -- that would be spectacular PR in my view. Much better than chopping off heads. Encouraging people to speak with each other and learn from each other seems so valuable to me. A great example also for how these issues could be handled in other venues and in the nation. THis all bears some resemblance to what is called "Restorative Justice" in the US ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice ) -- where criminals are not simply punished but a dialogue is fostered between the criminal and the person wronged. THis model is quite humane and carries so much more potential for meaningful justice than our highly punitive 'Justice system", a punitive system which Airbnb need not emulate.
BecksDeborah, that's a nice idea but I can't see how it would be applied to Airbnb. I'm sure many guests would not be willing to sign up for educating a racist/homophobic/prejudiced etc. host when all they want to do is book a room for their holiday. Also it is basically saying that the onus is on the person being discriminated against to "help" the ignorant fool understand how to overcome their prejudice. Why should they have to do that when, like I said, all they want to do is go on holiday!
As for Shadi Petovsky being asked to explain to the host "how she would like to be treated".. whaatt?? How about just treating her, like everyone else, with some respect? If the host doesn't understand that and needs it explained, I can't see much hope for her, frankly.
Last Edit: Jun 13, 2016 at 10:53am by becks
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Jun 13, 2016 at 11:15am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 13, 2016 at 11:15am
Deborah I think that would be an intriguing and potentially helpful approach for high-PR cases, although perhaps a burdensome one to apply every time a guest complains. I think Shadi would approve (and I only wish she were part of this conversation - some of the responses posted on her own Twitter feed are genuinely nasty and mean-spirited in comparison).
Considering that literal beheadings are actually a real thing happening to real people now, I'd rather we not use them as a metaphor for the comparatively benign act of removing an Airbnb profile. To us, as relatively well-known, high-volume hosts with years of standing with Airbnb and a reputation comprised of hundreds of reviews, the idea of losing our memberships probably seems a lot harsher than it would to the majority of hosts, whose investment in the site does not run nearly so deep. Being fined or sued (to speak nothing of the Death Penalty) would constitute tangible punishment - and I don't think either would be warranted. Being de-listed would be merely an inconvenience, forcing the member to conduct her business on another platform. And as I've said above, when your profile is tainted in such a very public way as to be quoted in dozens of newspapers, this would be the natural progression of things anyway.
There may be folks out there who feel that they have to decline certain kinds of guests out of fear of offending them. But I don't recall ever hearing from one in all the time we've been involved with the host community. I've read plenty of posts from hosts like Dee who don't want to host Muslims because they don't trust them, or like Cynthia who didn't want to host gay couples because she felt disturbed by what we might do in the bedroom. I've read about hosts like Todd and Patricia, who made their prejudices clear in their declines. And we've heard from lots of hosts who claimed that after a bad experience they'll never host someone from ___(insert country)___ again. But so far I haven't seen or heard anything from someone who was only unwilling to host guests of a certain demographic out of fear that they'll cause inadvertent offense. There have been hosts seeking advice about how to approach certain cultural differences (like the one who asked about special considerations for Chinese guests), but I can't recall a single one that thought their knowledge gap on that matter was a good reason to decline. Do you have any examples of this in your archive that I could have a look at?
It does strike me that assuming an entire ethnicity is too "easily offended" to stay in your home does not speak well of one's potential as a host, and is no less prejudiced than the more obvious expressions of racism. It may happen that a guest will be offended by something you say or do even if you treat them with all due respect, but that potential exists just as much with people of your own race/religion/sexuality/etc as those with those of a different one, so the fear you describe is irrational at best. I also have yet to hear about a host being "punished" by for saying something in person to a guest who they actually accommodated, that they took offense to - the examples described here are ones in which the offensive remarks were made on the Airbnb messenger (thereby leaving an indisputable paper trail), and in the context of declining guests.
One consequence of this controversy could be that hosts are more fearful of declining guests they're genuinely uncomfortable with - even when they have legitimate reasons. But that's one that has been around for a long time - one of the top 10 topics on the NHF was the question of whether hosts were penalized in Search for declining guests. You've seen many scenarios in which I've advised hosts to decline inappropriate requests, but I do think it's something many hosts should take more seriously.
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Jun 13, 2016 at 11:22am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 13, 2016 at 11:22am
I also tend to agree with Becks on the above - as a writer and public figure, Shadi is uniquely qualified to "educate" a host on her experience. But few people would appreciate the burden of having to round-table with someone who's treated them poorly when they were just trying to book a room. And demanding that a transphobic host accept a different trans guest that may never materialize, under threat of penalty, is actually more heavy-handed than removing their listing.
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Jun 13, 2016 at 3:15pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 13, 2016 at 3:15pm
Of course, you're right Becks and Andrew that it wouldn't be feasible to have Airbnb intervene and mediate in every case of alleged "discrimination" -- but to do so once in a while, particularly with a case that draws a lot of publicity -- would be useful I think.
Andrew-- "we" have not been using the term "beheading" -- I have been using it -- and I use it intentionally as I believe this metaphor conveys, better than "removed from the platform" , the potential emotional impact and also business impact of the sudden termination of the account a host who may have a significant investment in their Airbnb business (maybe not, but who's to know). Terminating someone's account without providing them any explanation, and forcing them to only find out about it by reading about themselves in the news, is by no means a "relatively benign" act and so I will have to disagree with you on that. It's something that could be emotionally traumatic. Potentially equally so or even more so than experiencing being declined in the unfortunate way that Shadi was. Also, as we have seen on the forums, there have been so many "unexplained" terminations of hosts accounts -- for various (presumptive) reasons -- Airbnb generally refuses to give a legitimate explanation to those so effected. I consider this poor treatment from a company which stands for hospitality and belonging. THis pattern of unexplained terminations is also something that has struck a chord of fear in hosts --- and I think referencing this fear by some use of metaphorical language, is valuable.
Of course I want to know if I have inadvertently said something that offends someone, but I am not asking others to use the language I use, (or even agree with or approve of it in every instance) and likewise I dont' want others telling/suggesting to me what words or phrases I should or shouldn't use. Choosing my own words and language is enormously important to me as a writer.
Yes, it would be nice if Shadi could participate in this conversation -- and when you said that I thought, "Oh, let's invite her!" But then, I realized, I would be concerned about the increased attention that that could bring to this forum. Some of the folks posting mean comments you see on her Twitter, could come over here. I wouldn't want trolls or spammers coming here.
I don't know that I would call Patricia "Transphobic". She may be, she may not be -- her son may be, or she may be while her son isn't. Hard to tell. Also, I never thought "homophobic" was the most accurate word -- and I preferred "heterosexist" -- because people can be contemptuous or intolerant of gay people without actually being "afraid" of us as the term "phobic" suggests. So for the same reason, I would like to find another term than "transphobic"....not sure what it would be though.
Re -- declining guests out of fear of offending them -- well I haven't seen any posts about that, that I can recall. I would guess that this issue, of declining guests out of fear of offending them, was less likely in the past, before the Airbnb discrimination issue rose in prominence in the news. I would guess that it might occur more often now.
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Jun 13, 2016 at 5:20pm becks likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 13, 2016 at 5:20pm
I've gotten to know a few Syrian refugees in Berlin who can tell you exactly what the emotional trauma of a loved one being brutally, publicly executed - by decapitation or otherwise - is like. Their stories, as well of the recent experience of watching actual bodies with heads blown off being ferried out of the streets of Paris, have led me to take the term extremely seriously in ways that would have seemed otherwise quite remote from anything in my own experience (and possibly yours). Losing one's Airbnb account, I'm sorry, it's not a comparable trauma, and in this case the hyperbole has the effect of distracting me from the point and putting in mind some of the most gruesome images I may ever have to process. I don't want to tell you what words to use on your own website, but I'd be amiss not to mention the unintended effects they might have. I understand that losing one's account causes distress, which is surely compounded by the lack of warning or explanation, and like you I find it lazy and insensitive on Airbnb's part not to deal with it better.
Not long ago my account was abruptly deleted by a longtime supplier for my other business after I demanded reimbursement for an order that didn't arrive. It was an inconvenience to have the business relationship severed like that, but there are other fish in the sea and life carried on. Had they removed my head along with the account, I couldn't quite say the same. At any rate, every business relationship is bilateral and subject to the whims of shifting self-interest. At any time we can choose to abruptly sever our relationship with Airbnb - and indeed, even if we have many outstanding reservations, they have limited means to penalize us if we remove our accounts, as there are no future payouts from which to deduct the fees. As much as I'd hate to suddenly lose my Airbnb account, this is not a matter that would necessitate treatment for PTSD; I'd pick up and move my business to one of the increasing number of competitors, and hope that their website had fewer bugs.
"Transphobic" is too nice of a word for the thousands of people who have assaulted, raped, and murdered transgender people, and who pervert the legal system in order to deny them basic human rights and dignities. But in Patricia's case, it appears to fit the text of her actual quote - she probably doesn't have a violent aversion to transfolk, but she excluded one specifically out of fear of "discomfort." The equivalent term to "heterosexist" would be "cissexist," but it's hard to say out loud and might sound esoteric outside of the gender-studies bubble.
Other words come to mind too, but they're more profane than specific.
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Jun 13, 2016 at 10:36pm CC and maria like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 13, 2016 at 10:36pm
Andrew, yes the term I used is hyperbolic.
I feel like we might be veering a bit off course from the subject. Your stories of your Syrian friends and images from Paris sound quite disturbing, as does the assault, rape and murder of Transgender people, but we don't have murders and violence going on in hosting, or on this forum, so perhaps we can keep in mind that we are talking about the hosting business and issues of discrimination -- I am concerned about burdening hosts or writers with responsibility to shield readers from re-experiencing anything that might have been painful in their lives. I wonder what a book would look like if the writer felt obligated to protect all her readers from encountering their past experiences? I suspect either all the pages would be blank, or it would have to be a children's story.
I can consider your feedback -- and then reflect that if I used the term "disappeared" in reference to terminated accounts, (hosts who suddenly went from being "Patricia" to being "the Ice Cream Girl" telling us that there is no one there anymore) someone from Central America might declare me insensitive to their experience. "Axed" might disturb someone who witnessed firsthand the casualties of the woodcutting trade. "Lopped off" might have some reaching down to feel if all their parts were still there. "Terminated" might seem less risky, calling to mind only Arnold Schwarzenegger, but using emotionally cold terms like that renders less visible the potential shock or trauma involved,as well as concealing the violence done to "Belong Anywhere!"
I do want all participants here to feel they can speak freely, and if someone is sincerely disturbed by something someone says, to feel able to say that, and certainly we can work to bring awareness to any unintended effects of word and language. At the same time, I'm concerned that if we start comparing levels of trauma, or dismissing one person's assumed distress as much less than someone else's, we may see the potential for discussions to turn into "The Oppression Olympics", wherein painful experiences may be inadvertently used as leverage to gain moral authority. Many of us on here, including yourself quite notably, are incredibly thoughtful and highly intelligent people with so much hosting experience and wisdom from participation in the host community. I think we can use these assets to develop ideas, gain insights and express differing views on a variety of subjects, including complex issues like this one.
Last Edit: Jun 13, 2016 at 10:37pm by Deborah
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Jun 14, 2016 at 4:14am CC and maria like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 14, 2016 at 4:14am
Deborah, I have never censored you, and never would, even if I could. Your freedom to use whatever words you want remains fully intact.
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Jun 14, 2016 at 4:35am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by shaun on Jun 14, 2016 at 4:35am
I agree with Deborah that it is on Airbnb to more clearly state their policies. In the US, there isn't just one culture. I don't know where this host was, but the issue of discrimination regarding gender identity is far more developed and discussed, much further along in its progress, in the larger cities and on the coasts. We're she is small town Idaho, for example, she might not have had much exposure or education about this issue. I think Airbnb is missing an opportunity to actually do some good through educating hosts on this issue. They have a real opportunity to further the awareness needed.
Consistency seems to be lacking in their response to problems. In the last four months, I have had two guests do illegal things. One extorted me, and I lost almost 500 dollars as well as feeling very frightened, and Airbnb simply said they would reach out to the guest and educate him. The other, they refused to do much, because it was a "legal issue". Both of these instances were issues that were potentially more serious in consequences for myself and my other guests and perhaps even for Airbnb if it got out than a tone deaf host. (Please don't think I am dismissing the effects of discrimination- I'm queer myself.)
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Jun 14, 2016 at 4:50am andrew likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by shaun on Jun 14, 2016 at 4:50am
What a wonderful idea!
One of my first Airbnb experiences was as a guest, staying with my partner in the home of a couple who turned out to be very conservative Chridtian missionaries. They did not realize that we were not a married heteronormative couple when they accepted the reservation, apparently. Upon arrival, the lady was very gracious. What was awkward was when her husband came home and she tried to explain to him "what" we were. He looked confused and she kept trying to phrase it different ways so he would get it, without offending us as we were standing right there. I could see them stretching themselves to accommodate what was beyond their experience.
It was initially awkward, but we did spend a lot of time talking, and on the night of their son's high school graduation, we stayed home and made dinner, deep cleaning their kitchen after cooking, not in any invasive way, not getting into their things, just really wiping off the grease and crumbs, because they were busy with their son.
We are still in contact! They may retain their religious idea of what is sinful, but maybe now they are a little less afraid.
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Jun 14, 2016 at 4:58am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by shaun on Jun 14, 2016 at 4:58am
I have declined guests based on fear of offending them. It rose out of having my only horrible reviews consistently being from a certain demographic. Now, I don't always decline this demographic (that would be discrimination) but if I have the sense that the person has a false idea of what they are getting and that that will cause problems, a feeling based on long experience that they will not like me or my house and neighborhood and might give me a low star rating, then I decline, without saying why.
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Jun 14, 2016 at 5:47am via mobile andrew likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by helgaparis on Jun 14, 2016 at 5:47am
People often fear the unknown and the more so, if there is an attraction. Maybe the host feared a transgender lifestyle is infectious and her son could catch it. Maybe there was an event before, that makes her suspect it.
I remember the uproar my sister provoked in her ultra catholic family in law, when she bought a doll for her toddler son ;-) They all feared, the toy would turn him gay. (Not yet, but the toolkit is transforming my niece into an engineer)
I too get lower ratings from people very opposite to my way of life, independent of sexual orientation. For me it's the machos my age and the very timid women suffering from a breaking relationship or lost job. If the stars had a real influence besides nagging airbnb mails, I would have to decline those too.
Airbnb is sometimes victim of their own company philosophy. All this cosy feeling etc. It's a nice marketing idea, it works very well, but they should not believe it themselves. It's a business and as such should treat business partners seriously. If they want to terminate a relationship, they should inform the other party and not react like a conservative family "we don't talk about /to the black sheep". If the infraction is not intentional and may be amended, they should have a prior discussion, give the partner a chance to amend the performance.
I don't really believe in education in such cases. But an information that this is a reason for cancellation of the account and wait, what the other side has to say. If it is as bad a justification as it was a bad offense, fire the host. If there is an excuse or a proposition to repair the damage, keep her.
But this would ask for very skilled people deciding the cases and that's not on the cost saving program.
Last Edit: Jun 14, 2016 at 5:50am by helgaparis
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Jun 14, 2016 at 6:28am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 14, 2016 at 6:28am
Great points all around, helgaparis , and especially the last one. I don't know what the case-load for an arbitrator in these matters would be like, but I'd want them to be skillful, compassionate, and able to take the time to look carefully into the specifics of the situation and communicate effectively with the people involved. The fact that Airbnb operates in many languages adds another complication there; perhaps they could be prepared to mediate in a complaint in English, but if the guest and host are communicating in Magyar or Thai, do they have an equivalent capability?
shaun, thanks for sharing your story. Have you found that the controversy around discrimination has made you more likely to decline guests of this specific demographic?
Last Edit: Jun 14, 2016 at 6:28am by andrew
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Jun 14, 2016 at 8:05am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by shaun on Jun 14, 2016 at 8:05am
Thanks Andrew. Well, the controversies have been about race and gender, so they don't really affect me so much and I have never had any issues around either one or had bad guests from either group.
The demographic that I am very cautious around is closely aligned with the dominant culture, so theoretically, discrimination might not be the right term. It is more of a reading between the lines of what they are expecting. It is people who would see photos of this historical house decorated in a way that respect the history of it, and expect a more formal traditional even conservative bed and breakfast. They weren't realizing they we are solidly in an extremely diverse gentrifying but working class Latino neighborhood, that people from all over the world would be living here too. The idea of a communal house seems positively dangerous or sleazy to them. They wanted a parking garage and to drive downtown every day rather than take the train. They would never share a bathroom. They wouldn't even say hello to anyone else. I rewrote my listing to make it ultra clear to them, and the problem lessened. Not everyone reads though,
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Jun 14, 2016 at 8:17am Deborah likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by shaun on Jun 14, 2016 at 8:17am
The world is more and more openly supportive of sexual orientation, so maybe there will be fewer problems with discrimination by hosts over time as they get used to the idea. In reading the news about Orlando, I saw this and was happy to see that places like Dallas, TX have the whole skyline lit up in the rainbow flag.
new.www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/orlando-buildings-lit-for-orlando-shooting_us_575eaccee4b0e39a28ae0f87?ir=WorldPost§ion=us_world
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Jun 14, 2016 at 8:43am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 14, 2016 at 8:43am
THanks for sharing that Shaun -- that actually makes tears well up in my eyes to see the Eiffel Tower in rainbow colors, and so many other sites around the world as well!! In my area there have been several candlelight vigils. On the Tony Awards, the producer/writer of "Hamilton", Lin Manuel Miranda, gave a very brief and quite moving message, about the power of love over fear and hatred, which culminated by saying the word "love" about 6 or 7 times.
I know what you mean Shaun about the "demographic" that you refer to... also being someone who likes to offer something different, I can be concerned that some folks don't quite get what I am offering...and so are they a good fit? Fortunately, I have found that the vast majority of my guests do seem to come with suitable expectations, and appreciate what I'm offering.
I've actually found that the demographic that I have had the most difficulty with, in terms of scathing reviews/ratings, is also not a "minority" group or a group that sees discrimimation -- it's what I term the "glam gals" - young female professionals who have a glamorous or "fashionable" appearance. I have found these women more high maintenance and they seem to have the most difficulty understanding the kind of atmosphere I have created. They are more suited for one of those listings that emphasizes its impeccable cleanliness, sparkling white floor tiles, gleaming mirrors and stovetops, in about a dozen different ways. Shiny ladies seem to like sparkling surroundings.
Last Edit: Jun 14, 2016 at 8:44am by Deborah
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The glam gals are a funny bunch. I get a lot of them - not the Paris Hiltons of the world but more the younger media/arts professionals with more style than money. They gravitate toward trendy neighborhoods and find it more fun or safe to stay with queer guys, and sometimes they're a blast to take out on the town. They also used to be among my less enthusiastic reviewers, until a couple of them pointed out the details that would've made them more comfortable. Ever since I added a full-length mirror and hair dryer, their feedback has been some of the best. They have tended to be messy - within minutes of arriving there's all kinds of clothes and paraphernalia all over the guestroom and piles of product in the bathroom - so shimmering cleanliness hasn't been a huge priority. But the first photo on my listing shows off the raw, damaged concrete walls and furnishings made of bike parts, so I assume it scares away those who need sparkle.
I still get people who book without realizing the guestroom is in a shared apartment, even though now my listing bashes people over the head with that fact. One of the main reasons I don't use Instant Book is that I prefer to add a bit of friction to the booking process sometimes and ask people to "review the ___ part of the listing and let me know if you think it's a good fit for your needs." At that point, I feel like I have shifted the responsibility for accurate expectations onto them, so if they still show up expecting something more conservative, I can wash my hands of it. So far I haven't needed to decline anyone on this basis; usually those who expected something different (like the whole apartment) tend to cancel their own requests voluntarily.
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Jun 14, 2016 at 3:44pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by shaun on Jun 14, 2016 at 3:44pm
Yes, it felt so amazing to feel that kind of solidarity with the people in Orlando, that kind of acceptance for all rainbow people all over the world. That would have been unimaginable when I was a kid.
interesting about the glam girls. They (US ones) don't usually make it to my neighborhood, but when they have have complained about too much unwanted street attention. I do get many Korean one's though, and they are really fun.
The problematic demographic I used to get that always went badly were older and probably lived in totally remodeled and kitted out historical homes in completely gentrified areas.
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It is an honor when someone chooses to spend their hard-earned money for the privilege of staying in my home, and even in the times when I feel the need to decline a Request (usually because it's a third-party booking) I feel obliged to reciprocate that honor with the same respect that I'd wish for as a guest. That's not a new development conditioned by fear; that's just the "Golden Rule" that we all grew up with.
Love the way you said it.
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Jun 16, 2016 at 8:51pm shaun likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by maria on Jun 16, 2016 at 8:51pm
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Jun 13, 2016 at 9:33am andrew said:
"It is an honor when someone chooses to spend their hard-earned money for the privilege of staying in my home, and even in the times when I feel the need to decline a Request (usually because it's a third-party booking) I feel obliged to reciprocate that honor with the same respect that I'd wish for as a guest. That's not a new development conditioned by fear; that's just the "Golden Rule" that we all grew up with."
Love the way you said it.
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Jun 28, 2016 at 3:29pm via Tapatalk ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by CC on Jun 28, 2016 at 3:29pm
Shaun, what type of couple are you?
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Jun 28, 2016 at 3:40pm via Tapatalk ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by CC on Jun 28, 2016 at 3:40pm
I'm always white-knuckled the whole time glam girls are in residence with me. I've had very few problems with them, though. Mostly it's middle aged white ladies who think they are needed to run me. They take the review scenario way too seriously. Lots of people are like that in my work life, too. (I must appear helpless.) They think when they see me in a hospital or on a street that because I am present, I must be lost, even though I am an expert on the streets of my city and the buildings thereon.
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Jun 28, 2016 at 10:00pm Deborah and CC like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by shaun on Jun 28, 2016 at 10:00pm
CC, get this. This is funny. The answer to "what kind of couple are you".
We are a unique couple, by most people's standards, but what was funny is that the hosts' perception and what we are was so at odds.
I am a bisexual woman, primarily identified with women, currently in an asexual non monogamous partnership with a straight man. That is, we hang out a whole whole lot, sometimes are roomies, have combined our resources to a large degree as it helps us both, act as family for the other. (We actually married last year in order to act as family since neither of us have extended family.)
So, wacko and wonderful because well, that's just how it works.
However! At the time, our hosts' perceived us as an unmarried, sexually involved regular dating relationship. The idea that we would share a bed and not be married was scandalous! That's how normative they were. So what they feared was so much more heteronormative than what actually was.
But in the end, they handled their shock with grace. I'm sure they either only accept one guest at a time now, or got over it.
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Jun 28, 2016 at 10:03pm CC likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by shaun on Jun 28, 2016 at 10:03pm
Ooo. That demographic thinks I'm lost too. (Even though I am one. Or pretty darn close.) That if I just tried a little harder to brush my hair and changed my clothes, and stopped running in the house, then perhaps they could relax.