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Post by High Priestess on May 9, 2016 2:27:16 GMT
Ok Deborah, how about this lovely lady? omg, it's not exactly easy to insert an image on here is it..... give me a minute Ok I can't work out how to insert a bloody image. I have to insert the whole address?? What?? AAAAHHH! It's like Noah's forum before the flood. Eagerly awaiting your lovely lady -- just hoping though that I am not being set up and someone standing by to slap me for my honesty -- if you don't find a way to do it maybe you have a link to where she is online. To insert a photo, you can either save it on your computer, and then add it here as an "attachment" or you can post the URL Of the photo...generally if you get an address that starts "Http://" and then ends with ".jpg", you can then stick this at the front of the address [ and then img src and then =" and this at the end " and then ] and it will show the photo.,
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Post by becks on May 9, 2016 2:30:35 GMT
Anyways, photo is of a lovely smiley, kind-looking lady with her head on one side, as if saying 'oh I'm so nice, me'. She's white and around 30. Her messages are very straightforward and she's clearly read the listing. Yeah, you guessed it, she turns out to be an utter bitch. Anyways, this conversation is kind of circular now. You wouldn't accept Greg for your own reasons. I would. You're not racist but many many hosts are. Racism is rampant. Please don't deny it or try to excuse it. It's fine to twiddle with the minutiae of intellectual debate but meantime real people live with this real shit.
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Post by becks on May 9, 2016 2:32:16 GMT
I have a horrible feeling that I've just posted a load of empty replies. If so, apologies. Also, Deborah, I still love you! You make me mad, though.
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Post by High Priestess on May 9, 2016 2:43:44 GMT
Just before this post, Andrew wrote this: When I'm declined with no reason given, and the dates remain available on the listing's calendar, I can't say with any certainty that it was solely on the basis of race. Though this is very likely to be the case a significant percentage of the time. What I can say with certainty that it was NOT on the basis of was lack of reviews, a negative review, insufficient verifications, incomplete profile, poor communication skills, failure to describe the purpose of my visit, failure to read or properly understand the listing, or any of the other things that would make a host logically wary of a prospective guest. I'm sure there are times when the host is simply disorganized with their listing, and times when perhaps a different bias is involved. But I don't find it coincidental that every person of color I've talked to about this has had similar experiences as guests and very few of the white people have. And yes, I have used my husband's test profile (no reviews) to investigate a couple of hosts whose declines I found suspicious. On 2 of 3 occasions it was pre-approved. I did not feel inclined to report any of this to Airbnb or to the media, as I don't believe a host who doesn't want me in their home should have to take me. But it did strike me that if a black user with my track record gets declined more than half the time they request a listing, it must be quite a lot harder for a newer member to #airbnbwhileblack. (On the flip side, my ability to get guests has never seemed to suffer, though I've never experimented to see how many requests I'd get without a photo of myself. This stuff tends to just flow one direction). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ANdrew, I am very sorry to hear that someone as incredibly bright, as marvelously articulate, as polite and respectful and thoughtful as you may experience getting declined with any significant frequency, if that was what you implied.
I still think that it is not responsible to accuse any one person/host of racism when you don't know what was involved, but I think it certainly is fair to say, that black individuals/guests may experience some degree of racism in seeking Airbnb reservations -- though to what extent that is, and where, is hard to say. HOwever, I think it's important to view this phenomenon as in the context of society at large, rather than anything particular or institutional unique to Airbnb. If there is racism, sexism, heterosexism in society in general, why would we NOT see these in any particular place, such as on Airbnb? But to speak specifically of racism on Airbnb, I expect someone to show that there is something MORE happening on Airbnb than is happening in like situations everywhere in society or the world -- and there is no evidence of that.
However, if an individual is experiencing that they "cannot book an AIrbnb for the life of them", as some black individuals are reporting, this doesn't really make sense either with respect to the Harvard Study (flawed as it was), or if we assume that there is "some" racism simply everywhere in society. The Harvard study only found a 16% difference in success obtaining bookings between those with "black sounding names" and "white sounding names" --- not a 100% difference. So when someone "can't book an Airbnb for the life of them" I think they need to start looking harder at how they present themselves, at what kind of listings they are applying to stay and if they are a match for that host/listing, etc.
ANd really, even with the Harvard study, since it was flawed and determined results based only on the use of "black sounding" guest names that could be linked with 2 other factors besides race (perceived socioeconomic status and perceived militancy/political stance regarding one's racial identity) , we still dont' have much evidence that clearly points to race-based decision making on Airbnb.
Ironically, the hosts who were most racially discriminatory in their acceptance practices in the Harvard Study, were the black male hosts, who preferred male guests with "white sounding names" 24% more often than they accepted male guests with "black sounding names."
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Post by High Priestess on May 9, 2016 2:44:39 GMT
Anyways, photo is of a lovely smiley, kind-looking lady with her head on one side, as if saying 'oh I'm so nice, me'. She's white and around 30. Her messages are very straightforward and she's clearly read the listing. Yeah, you guessed it, she turns out to be an utter bitch. Anyways, this conversation is kind of circular now. You wouldn't accept Greg for your own reasons. I would. You're not racist but many many hosts are. Racism is rampant. Please don't deny it or try to excuse it. It's fine to twiddle with the minutiae of intellectual debate but meantime real people live with this real shit. I have a horrible feeling that I've just posted a load of empty replies. If so, apologies. Also, Deborah, I still love you! You make me mad, though. I love you too becks -- it's okay, we can make each other mad. We'll cope with it.
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Post by Maria Lurdes (Milu) on May 9, 2016 12:18:30 GMT
I don't have any relevant experience or insight to share here except that last night I had a call from a guest that had just booked (an American woman from Indiana) and she said that she wanted to talk to me directly after booking because she was so worried that she'd booked with a foreigner. I told her that I am a foreigner, I'm a Canadian living in the US. She said "yeah, but you sound American". If there wasn't such harsh penalties for canceling, I would have canceled her booking just for that comment.
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Post by High Priestess on May 9, 2016 14:44:15 GMT
Milu --- I would have been curious what were the woman's concerns about booking with a foreigner?!? DId she worry that she might not be able to easily communicate with the host? THat there would be a language barrier (but it should be clear in reading your listing that you have a solid command of English!). I dont' think I would have been angry as much as confused.
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Post by High Priestess on May 10, 2016 1:15:02 GMT
I've had a couple potential renters who verbally articulated some "issues" with others in certain groups. Both of these were non-Airbnb people, and this was before Airbnb existed.
One was an Indian man who dressed like a professional businessman -- I seem to recall he was about 40 or 45 years old, dressed in a suit and tie -- his appearance and nature were something like an office drone, a person who has been deadened by years of repetitive experience in a dead end job. (His flat demeanor and drooping appearance alone made me realize he wasn't the kind of person I wanted to rent to....realized I should have done a bit more screening before inviting him over...) He expressed concern that I might have black people in my house ---I got the sense he wouldn't have wanted to live in the same house as a black person. At the same time as he said this, he expressed this concern apologetically, saying he thought it might be "illegal" for him to say such a thing. I recall feeling very awkward. I recall trying to make the visit with him as short as possible and whisked him out, hoping he would not be calling or emailing me back since I didn't want to spend any more time with him.
ANother man who was interested in renting a room from me, was a young man, in his early 30's or so, tall and blond, who came to my home, and met me and he seemed cheerful and friendly and I toured him about my house. As he was departing, when I asked about what had brought him to my area, he told me that he worked with a church group. He began talking about how he had come here from some other state, to help convert gay people to what Jesus wanted for them, and how his church was starting a project to work with gay people. I suddenly felt extremely uncomfortable and creeped out, as I realized that this man who had just been all over my house, had this twisted view on gay people, that we were sinners who needed Jesus. He actually had the nerve to stand on my doorstep and start telling me what he thought Jesus wanted for me -- eg not to be who I am. I felt like I needed to take several baths and douse my whole premises with a good strong sage cleansing to get that icky energy out of my house.
These were quite rare experiences -- if others who have interviewed or rented at my house have had similar views, they have kept them to themselves as I have not heard other such comments expressed.
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Post by Maria Lurdes (Milu) on May 10, 2016 16:20:43 GMT
Milu --- I would have been curious what were the woman's concerns about booking with a foreigner?!? DId she worry that she might not be able to easily communicate with the host? THat there would be a language barrier (but it should be clear in reading your listing that you have a solid command of English!). I dont' think I would have been angry as much as confused. The way that she said it gave me the distinct impression that it was a race issue and not a language issue. She said it in a very scornful way. I could be wrong, but that was the feeling I had during our conversation.
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Post by High Priestess on May 10, 2016 21:33:17 GMT
I see what you mean then Milu. I also would find myself feeling quite short with someone who expressed scorn about a huge (even: mega-huge!) group of people such as "foreigners"!! I think it's less likely I would see that in my area, because this major university town is cosmopolitan and absolutely chock-full of "foreigners" -- but if I did hear such a thing from a guest, I think my impulse would have been, to say something to the effect that I have a LOT of foreigners in my house! VERY MANY FOREIGNERS!!!! (ANd hopefully scare her away....)
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Post by helgaparis on May 12, 2016 1:53:36 GMT
I'm falling into this thread late (besides its 3 am) I had wondered about the question at which point the market position of airbnb will be so dominant that consumer protection and anti discrimatory regulations will be expected to apply. There are a lot of crazily biased people hosting now and some have very short fuses too and get insulting quickly. Sometimes I'm appalled by what I read on the forums.
There are racial biases in renting - we saw that sometimes before airbnb, when we met our guests in Paris to sign a contract dor the South. Sometimes our place seemed a bit above budget for our guests but instead of a last minute negotiation, we got grateful declarations how flad they were that we accepted them. Huh? We thought we were lucky to have them for 2 or 3 weeks, not a lot of short stays. We understood after a while: they were black or Arabs and had not expected a joyful and easy acceptance. We felt sad, because it spoke of a lot of discrimination to change expectations so profoundly.
The photo of the black guy gave me pause. The reason is the blue shade around the face, on chin and front. It makes it look like a helmet and the eyes look like highlighted too, by the light, but teminds of eyeshade. I would ask him a question if there is no text in the request. I use photos to reassure me and not ask ask questions. If the photo is not reassuring, I ask. The only one, where I saw the picture and thaught "Oh, my, looks like a serial killer!" Had instabooked. He was the guy locked in the bathroom, came twice, two other bookings upcoming.
My bed is mostly on IB but I rarely get black people for that. Maybe they don't want yo stay with elder white females either ;-)
Doing 3 different inquiries for the same dates seems pretty conclusive to me, at least to get a statistical confirmation, if you send it go different hosts. Of course, if hd uses a non-smiling picture for the teal name, he needs to use non smiling fake ones too. So maybe the method was not up to scientific standard. A picture where he looks straight and not fown his nose would be more neutral too.
I don't believe in energies. That seems like a way to externalise a prejudice, doesn't it? Not concerning a group, but concerning a person or better the conceived image of the person. It's just too much work for me. I take most of them, let them do what they like as long as it does not result in damage and does not bother me too much and if it would do damage, I bark them into compliance.
Discrimination seems just so unnecessarily complicated. You have to uphold a complicated image of a world with many categories, categorize people and stuff them into those tiny boxes in your mind. If they don't fit, you loose business or friends or have to find another plumber when it's already hard to find one at all. And all the while adapt this complex building in your mind to the contradictions of the real world. It is really strange: most people don't like ranging. They leave messes in houses, don't file documents in office and their computers are utter chaos. But for their perception of the world, they need complex structures to classify every living thing into very specific categories.
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Post by helgaparis on May 12, 2016 1:57:39 GMT
Sorry for the typo - I don't see well on the phone in bed ;-)
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Post by High Priestess on May 15, 2016 4:58:30 GMT
Many times in the host community, hosts have written about using one's "gut sense" to make a decision about a guest. What is that "gut sense"? It is an energy, or better, an intuition. WHat I am advocating is nothing more nor less than using one's intuition to help make decisions about guests -- just like all these other hosts who advocate that. Intuition is often considered "women's way of knowing", and because it is women's way, and not men's, it often gets a bad rap in our society -- women who rely on intuition are accused of being "irrational". Yet intuition is a valid way of obtaining information --- albeit not as available for those who are less intuitive. Sensing energies is not "prejudice", it's intuition, or using one's "gut sense." The information one obtains through intuition is not exact as with factual data one gets from science, so it has to be reviewed with the mind and intellect, and considered on balance with everything else.
Also I think that whether one consciously believes in energies or not, or believes that photos have information or not, people do take in information from photos. For instance, how likely are you to accept the following people as guests:
I think even the most open-minded host most committed to generous hospitality and open doors to everyone, may feel at least " a little nervous" about these prospective guests. Why? They are getting info from these photos...perhaps they dont' know at a logical/rational level what that information is, but they "sense" the information as energy. THe host viewing these photos may "know" at some level that these guests will not be the "standard Airbnb guest."
These are extreme examples (these individuals are actually all criminals -- the photos are mug shosts) , quite different in that respect from the much more subtle things we may detect in "ordinary" photos, but I hope they make the point that images contain information. Of course it's possible that you can't REALLY tell these people are criminals or "unlikeable" people from these photos, and that they just had a bad day and the photo wasn't so flattering. But sometimes you can tell....it's not that the photo was just not done so well. There really is something there.
ANd there is something in these photos too, which give a very different energy:
So are photos useless, dont' provide any information? In most cases photos are not as "loud" as these extreme examples are in terms of the "energy" they project -- but I think they make the point that they have information. Information which can be considered on balance with all other information one has, when making a decision. And faced with a decision that seems hard to make, some people with my orientation will use divination to assist, and draw up an astrology chart or read the cards or what have you. It is not frequently that I use divination to make decisions about prospective renters, but I definitely have done this at times.
One of my concerns about the recent allegations of racism in Airbnb renting, is that since there can be so much political pressure to prevent racism where it is alleged to exist , (and Airbnb is definitely a scapegoat for many social ills these days) -- I worry that hosts could see a new level of corporate intrusiveness in their decision making processes about who stays at their home. Airbnb has responded to recent allegations of racism in the system by stating that they plan to make use of "technology" to deal with this. I worry -- what Big Brother tactics are next?
Lately hosts have been aghast to find out that Airbnb is actually overriding hosts' own minimum stay settings, and blocking hosts from getting 1-2 night bookings more than a certain amount of time in advance. Airbnb is pushing INstant Book on hosts, ever more aggressively. Hosts are required to accept or decline a guest within 24 hrs, and now if they dont' do so, Airbnb blocks the corresponding dates on their calendars. Airbnb has threatened to remove listings of hosts who have gotten too many sub 5-star ratings. Given this level of Airbnb involvement in hosts' listings, I don't think it is far fetched to worry that at some point, hosts will feel that Airbnb has basically appropriated their homes for its own use.
If Airbnb ever begins to "police" hosts' decision making process about accepting guests, I suggest that more hosts move to making decisions based on divination, as this would absolve them of the need to "explain" how they made a decision.
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Post by becks on May 15, 2016 21:31:57 GMT
I want to reply to this with some images but can't seem to manage it. I can only insert as attachments? And after two photos I'm at my limit? Deborah, how did you insert so many images in your post? This has destroyed the joke in advance but I'm frustrated by not being able to do it...
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Post by High Priestess on May 15, 2016 21:43:28 GMT
Becks, you can either add a photo as an attachment (if you have it on your computer) or follow the instructions here (on this thread) to post a photo in your post: globalhosting.freeforums.net/thread/77/set-account-post-photos-forumBasically, you can grab a photo from anywhere on the internet, and post it here using the image URL. Let me create an example of how to do that in more detail and I'll post it here in a minute....
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