Post by High Priestess on Sept 28, 2015 6:22:46 GMT
Donna
Difficult child guest, how to handle
My most recent guests were a mother and 10 year old. Before reserving, mom asked if our farm had livestock and if her daughter would be able to meet the animals. Yes, we have livestock, and yes, I said, they'd get to meet our animals.They arrived at the end of our workday, around 5:30 or so...and the child immediately demanded to be given a farm tour. I sweetly said our farm crew starts at dawn and were all home with their families now, and we'd sure show her around the next day when everyone was fresh. The child wouldn't take no for an answer, insisting on getting right to it. Mom allowed this, as she was standing right there. I refused and introduced them to the features of the home. My partner arrived to introduce himself and bring along some fruit from the farm, and again the child demanded a tour at once from him. Again, the mom said nothing. Ha ha, my partner isn't the best with kids, and just said no and left. I winced because I'd have parsed it a bit, but what can I say?
If it had been my kid...I'd have jumped in and said...now Miss Donna said no already...lets respect what she's said and wait until the morning like she asked. I wouldn't let my child grind a host. Not in a friend's home, and not in a bnb. Just hard for the host to know how to handle this professionally.
The next day was even worse, just demand, after demand, after demand. "Why can't I bring the farm cats into my bed? That's not fair. " " I don't care if I make a mess of your home, it's not my problem." (Mom was awesome and left the unit very clean..but the child was just over the top for me to know how to handle.) Intruding on my space...never, ever happened before...because there's a common sense about this that everyone, without fail has "got." I found myself needing to hide in my house to avoid her demands, and then she just pounded on my front door for more attention. I spent the better part of Thursday with these guests, which isn't included in my tiny price of $125 a night...which includes heating a hot tub, wine, and lots of food in the fridge. Very concerned that the mom was providing NO activities at all, (they literally never left the farm for 2 days) and the child could easily get into danger unsupervised, I ended up "baby-sitting" without being paid to do so. I made mozzarella cheese with her, offering a private class that I normally charge $130... for free. I helped her take cuttings of easily propagated plants and taught her how to asexually propagate ground cover. I really tried to make lemonade out of lemons. But I was upset and absolutely over it by the time they departed.
Refused to leave the chicken barn at once when I asked...she was chasing the chickens and they will not lay eggs for a day or two when they get upset like this. Occasionally, when a chicken's egg laying is delayed like this, an egg gets stuck and the chicken can die. It's not a minor thing to upset my hens. Again, mom was standing right there. Mom chimes in and tells her to leave the barn as I've said, child refuses...mom is okay with that.
She asked again and again to interface with the goats, which because of her age meant one of us had to stay with her the whole time. She chased the goats, and my partner handled it way better than I did with the chickens. (That is, in terms of the livestock, not in terms of the possible review....)
He explained to her that you had to move slowly and be gentle, this 10 year old just couldn't do it. So...session over at once, out of the barn you go. I wasn't there, but my guess is, he wasn't nice about it. I can't wait to see the review we get, if they leave one at all. Chasing Lance's goats is not going to sit well with him, and I doubt he worded it super friendly like.
So I guess I'm reaching out...how would other hosts have handled this? I always try to give my guests whatever they ask, and enjoy doing that....but no matter what I did for this child, it wasn't going to be enough. Normally, my guests ask nothing of me expect for directions, or features of the farm, maybe some fruit or such. Mid-stay, I went on to my listing and unchecked "kid friendly." Never again in the unit that is so close to my own home. But when we open our next unit...which is two bedrooms, I'll have to accept families. Otherwise, why rent two bedrooms? So the kid issue/boundaries/how to handle a rude child and a checked out parent is relevant. Leave an honest review? They didn't really break any house rules. Who knew I needed to write: don't be a buffoon and allow your kids to be nuisances. If I'd had that in the house rules, then they broke the house rules. But I don't.
Deborah:
I'm sorry you had such an unpleasant experience. That child has needed some better mothering and some boundaries and discipline for a long time, what a spoiled brat.
I think that what I would have done, had I been faced with this situation, would be to have a "sit down" talk with the mother soon after the child refused to take no for an answer and kept pestering you about a farm tour at the time of first arrival. THe talk should have been along these lines: "I'm concerned that your child won't take no for an answer, and this puts me in an uncomfortable position....I wouldn't want your child to decide to take herself on a farm tour, or ____" and bring up various things you don't want to have happen but that you are starting to see on the horizon, given the child's behavior. THis kind of sit down talk would be even more necessary the more such incidents occur, as did occur. Eventually, if the mother is clearly not able to control her child, then you can just ask them to leave, saying that you are going to have to ask them to find another place to stay because her child is causing too many problems.
To avoid such problems in the future, or at least give you some firm ground to evict a guest if you need to, you could make some statements like these in your house rules:
(1) Farms are fun for children, but children aren't fun for our farm animals if they are out of control and harass the animals. If you are going to bring children with you, they must be polite and adequately supervised. If the children cause problems in our household we may have to ask you to find another place to stay.
(2) The farm animals cannot be visited at any time - they need some private time. Please ask us before visiting the animals - we will take you on a tour, and explain how to interact with them.
Also, you dont really have to allow kids at all. There are people traveling as a group of adults who could use 2 bedrooms ---eg a couple with an extra friend, or two couples, or an adult with their elderly parents.
Stan:
I would put very strict farmyard safety rules online and post them in rooms too! Unsupervised children and farms Sheeesh!
Susan:
I've never even met these people and I want to smack the little tyrant. Then her mom for allowing it.
Stan:
I feel for you Donna, Maybe getting the parents to sign a waiver and an agreement that they will closely supervise their children and be responsible for an damage? A code of conduct too ?
Britt:
Donna, you are not alone there, I had to be the bad guy with children "torturing" our chickens and teenagers mishandling our baby cats, but at this point my number one is our animals, they are our responsibility and they trust us - we have to live together the whole year. I explained the children, after saying "no" that this is my place and these are living beings that deserve respect and if these children ( or child) is not old or mature enough for this then they do not belong there.... yes, I felt like the bad guy but for me my animals are here because I took on the responsibility as well as our guests, but the animals have no choice. I have clearly stated that if anyone wants a tour ( in most cases our vineyard) then please let me know in advance as we are a working vineyard and need to plan so that we can give our guests the full attention that they wish. Stay strong and firm - it is ok to set boundaries, kids or adults, guests or not. nice weekend, Maj Britt
David:
Sorry you experienced this . These are the prince and princess syndrome children. Children who are totally indulged.
Never, ever disciplined, set boundaries or taught the word 'No.' They grow up believing the world totally revolves around them. All you can do is talk to the parents and explain in no uncertain terms,that the behaviour is not appropriate, you need it to be stopped or unfortunately they will need to leave. This is your home, little 'brats' cannot be out of control, upsetting you and traumatising your animals. The kid is 10 should know better, but still a child, the responsibility is with the parent.
Sometimes all of us - been there myself - need to remember we get treated the way we allow others (guests) to treat us. Sorry, but my rates are nowhere high enough to take c*ap like that.
Jay:
Agreed David. Hell no. I don't do brats. I don't play with people's kids. I have a thing about respect in my home. I'll respect you so I expect to be respected.
Fiona:
Sorry this happened to you and your animals. I don't have any advice but am heart-ing your place and the next time I go down to the Pauma Valley area where we visit regularly I'm coming over and misbehaving until you give me free classes in mozzarella making and asexual plant propagation!
Donna:
Ha ha. You so made me laugh.
Stan:
Yay! Donna Fiona.... home made cheese and plants ....count me in :-) Maggie
Fiona:
Road trip to Donna's!
Donna:
you guys!
Ernest:
I would place in my house rules that for a fee of $25 per person (or whatever fee you decide upon) that farm tours are available between the hours of 9-11am (or whatever hours a suitable). All tours must be booked in advance and all children must be accompanied by an adult at all times. I would set out a strict set of rules that any direction given by the tour guide must be followed to the letter, for the safety and comfort of both the guide, the animals and the guests and that any disregard of these instructions may end in a termination of the tour without refund. All children welcomed onto the property must be accompanied by a supervising adult at all times or the reservation may be terminated without refund, etc..
Rene:
What I like about this approach besides being up front in the listing is, it made me see the tour as professional and respected as a antiquities museum tour and like them, it gives you an out for bad tour behavior. A lower age limit would be good to have which also speaks to the fact that there is no control over some behavior of the youngest ones (screaming, grabbing, toddler who has been encouraged to take steps, run, chase) Having a couple of your farm tours, lessons, etc be charged and prearranged will likely not encourage those like these guests who are looking for the babysitting location and letting their brats run free with the animals. It also allows you to "over deliver" for those well-behaved families (especially the parents!) who booked wanting to enjoy the setting and the experience even if they didn't book the tour.
Evelyn:
I wonder if you could do the tour as a separate listing where other people (non guests) could attend?
Jay:
i love your wording Ernest
Fleur:
Please leave an accurate review. I'd be horrified if my kids behaved that way and there is no way I would tolerate that kind of behaviour. We host children all the time and very rarely come across this type of behaviour so please don't think all kids are like this!
Donna:
You know, I'm a fairly good writer, but am at a loss for words. What would be an appropriate review, given the fact that I failed to set boundaries? A fairly strick mother myself, this is foreign to me.
Fiona:
My take is a little different than others and you were there but is it possible the mother and daughter are looking at this as having been a wonderful, memorable farm experience and will be totally blindsided by a negative review? Since it caused you to reevaluate accepting children at all it served a purpose and I'd be inclined to tell her in private comments only that said brat -"messing up your house is not my problem" is TOTALLY unacceptable - instead of attacking her parenting in a public review. She sounds pleasant and you said she left the place clean. I think the time to say something was when she was there and could have had a chance to correct the supervision issues.
Fleur:
Actually Donna the more I think about it was there something going on that was affecting the kid? I know it's no excuse but I had a family come stay with me and the children were a bit more of a handful than normal. Later I found out from the mum that her and her husband booked the holiday to Australia six months previously but then separated! They decided to still take the holiday together with their kids even though they were barely on speaking terms! No wonder the kids were a mess. I gave them a bit more flak after that and they were really nice kids just very stressed. Did the mum let on that the girl had issues? Like Fiona points out a negative review could floor this woman.
Fiona:
Wow Fleur, what a nightmare for you! Tension much? Poor kids.
Fleur:
It was pretty stressful, the mum was quite teary. Once she explained it all made sense, I would have canceled the holiday myself, the poor kids were about 6 and 8 and drove my kids (and dog) nuts. They couldn't wait until they left.
Deborah:
It always helps in thinking about what to write for the review, to focus as unemotionally as possible on the facts. To avoid overly judgemental words or dismissive characterizations of people, but just focus narrowly on exactly what the problem was, and where appropriate give some statement about the effect of the problem upon you.
In this case, the problem was that the mother was not in control of her daughter, and the child expected to do whatever she pleased and became defiant of you as the host, refusing to respect the limits you placed on her, and harassed your animals.
I would state in the review that while you had previously enjoyed welcoming children to your farm, you had not realized until these guests visited what a problem could be caused by a complete lack of adequate parental control and supervision, and how distressing and awkward it became for you when you found yourself feeling obligated to step in and set limits on the child which should have been set by her parent. You might also say that as a result of this guests' visit to your home, you are now seriously wondering whether you will again permit guests to bring their children to your farm.
Madeleine
This is good advice. You can stick with a summary of the facts because they speak for themselves. This scenario is a major reason I have a single bed listing and do not expand to families. This type of "parenting" is rampant.
René
I too like Deborah's wording. I think the only thing I would change is, "..."seriously wondering whether it's fair to the well-being of our animals to invite children to stay at our farm." I think this would not turn off the type of guest you are really hoping to attract (truly appreciating your farm and the caring of it), without any commentary on one's parenting style. "Inviting" guests seems a little less opinionated than "permitting" and we know how defensive parents can be of their parenting and their children. As far as the next listing with 2 bedrooms; I agree that there are many adult folks like us, friends traveling together, that would love to stay at a place like yours. I think the combination of not checking off kid-friendly, charged tours, and mention of lower age limit for the well-being of the animals will attract less of the families looking for the free-range babysitting location. I guess I can also think of a few one and two-child families in my close circle that would be the perfect guests that you would likely enjoy for their interaction with what you offer.
Lauren
Sorry you had to put up with this brat but even worse parents who let their children dictate to them. It's unacceptable. I feel bad for your animals but would have been more offended the kid was left unsupervised! I hope you mention this in the review maybe "Mrs. X was clean, nice, blah blah, but I was uncomfortable that she felt it was ok to leave her 10yr old daughter in my home unsupervised where I felt obligated to watch and keep her busy."
Lauren:
Sounds like the mom planned to have a vacation away from her brat and the plan was for your farm entertain her. What a piece of work
Andrew:
I really like Deborah's wording for the review. Had an adult guest treated you the way this child did, I'm sure you'd have no trouble finding the words to write an honest review, and you may well have removed them from the property altogether. My view is that when the child was being so nasty and demanding to you in front of her parent, it was really the parent treating you this way by proxy. Future hosts need to know what this adult's parenting style is like!
Not only is it a really awful experience for you (knowing that, of course, Airbnb hosts are in no position to discipline their guests' children), it's also potentially a great danger to the child, who is being left unsupervised around unpredictable animals. What if the kid had gotten kicked by a goat and injured? Or fell into a well or got run over by a tractor? (OK, obviously I'm a city boy). The fact that these parents aren't taking responsibility for their little monster and keeping her out of trouble means they are very risky people to host, and your review should get that across!
Even so, I also agree with Deborah that this is a good occasion to set clear rules about interacting with the animals and supervising children at all times, and posting them in your listing. It should be common sense, but free-range-parents with romantic visions of setting their children out to run wild on your farm need to be stopped in their tracks, and preferably sterilized.
Fiona:
Andrew may well be right it was the mother treating you poorly by proxy by not shutting little brat down but I'll offer a different view. I'm a mother and I often feel it is undermining to another adult in their home turf if I repeat/reinforce something they say to my child immediately. For example at my children's gymnastics class - if coach says something to my little one and he doesn't respond immediately I sit there and bite my tongue for a minute and trust the coach as a professional to handle his class. I don't undermine his authority by chiming in and sending my kid the message they only have to listen to me. I can see a situation where this mother felt you were competent and in charge of your domain/animals and knew brat wasn't going to get away with being demanding.
Andrew:
That is a good point, Fiona. But on the other hand, for the gymnastics teacher it is their job to supervise and discipline children. This is not part of the job description for a B&B host - we're not necessarily professional childcare providers or educators - and a fellow adult should have the emotional intelligence to recognize that their child's behavior puts a hospitality provider in a very uncomfortable position. Unlike a teacher, we don't have a protocol for exerting authority over someone else's children. I do appreciate Deborah's point that the host could have sat the parent down to communicate this to them, and I'd like to think that I would have done that, but it's still a very uncomfortable thing to have to do, and an accurate review would have to account for that fact.
Kim:
You are so tolerant Donna. I would have kicked the brat out the minuet it harassed my chickens. Deborah's wording is great. I would also leave in the review the child is dangerous to animals. I would also add the mother was very clean and left the place tidy.
Micah:
Leave an honest review about the kid. Dont hide it or another host will suffer.
Ernest:
I'd like to add that - as members of the Airbnb community - all of us, as both hosts and guests are aware from the start that this is a platform that operates and excels, by the use of a review system. That said, I review every guest - honestly, factually and comprehensively. We all should include everything that yes right -and wrong - during a guest's stay to ensure that the system is working as it should. This holds people accountable - both hosts and guests - for the experience they provide and their behavior. I find it paramount that you leave a review encapsulating the things that the mother - and child - did right and ALL things that they did wrong. This way, they can learn how to be better guests in people's personal homes. We ARE NOT hotels - people need to and should treat us like their hosts and they should act like guests, after all that's what they are, whether paying us for this privilege or not. I really don't care if a poorly behaved guest is "floored" by an accurate, honest and fair review of their behavior. If they are floored then that is their own fault for their own poor behavior, not mine, for simply stating the facts.
David:
As many of us have experienced, guest do not hold back when things go wrong from our side, leaving reviews that can have a negative impact on our overall ratings and rankings. As long as a review is honest and fair and keeps factual I believe it is best to state exactly what happened. I mean would any host really want this family to come and stay with them? And it will happen, if we continue to gloss over these types of issues. This child is the type to yank your dog's tail and then run screaming when the dog nips her. Airbnb is not suitable for everyone, so lets all attempt to 'drop' any who are likely to cause issue?
Andrew:
Exactly...if the Demon Spawn were to get injured or killed by an animal as a result of her actions, the parents certainly wouldn't hesitate to hold the hosts accountable to the full extent of the law. Hosts need to know what a huge liability risk here, with parents who can't keep their kid in line.
David:
Andrew, so, so true. I used to own a shop many years ago, and we had children like this every day. But if a child toppled something over on themselves - even though they were pulling it and I had personally warned them - the parents literally turned into crazed, monster. 'What have YOU done to my little Tommy' type response. You can imagine the litigation *some* parents would unleash on a host, if anything serious did occur.
Serafina:
I'm interested reading the perspectives here, about the out-of-control child, in the context of the adjacent discussion about the out-of-control dog that killed a chicken. I'd argue that a pet's action is much more under the control of its owner than a child is in control of a parent, but in both cases I'd absolutely say something in the review, keeping in mind that public shaming about parenting can be very emotionally devastating. In either case, it's something I'd have a conversation about before the guests left. And both these conversations are a case in point about how clueless some people can be about interactions with animals.
Andrew:
Interesting point regarding the guest's control of pets vs children. One major difference I see here is that the dog in the other incident was out of its owner's control for a couple of minutes, whereas the child here was out of control consistently for several days.
Deborah:
I would say that the host, Donna, probably has a pretty good sense of whether the mother in this case was responsible or not -- whether the mom made any efforts to control the child, or scold her daughter for responding disrespectfully to Donna, or not. I get the impression from what Donna wrote that the Mom here is someone who just doesn't know how to say no to her daughter, and thus has encouraged in her daughter the most inappropriate and bratty behavior. IF this is actually the situation (and we as readers can't be sure -- but I do believe Donna will have a sense of this) then this isn't a child issue, it's a parent issue. And it's my belief that in most though certainly not all cases of out of control kids, it is the parent who is at fault. SuperNanny helped clarify that to the public with her shows that aimed at getting parents back on track. In the SuperNanny shows, it was rarely the child who was "wrong" - it was the parenting that was a problem. Kids simply do what they can get away with....some kids that seem like true Demon Spawn can turn into sweet kids, if they just start getting some firm, coordinated parenting and adequate discipline and oversight.
Fiona:
Right on about Supernanny correcting parental behavior Deborah. And before there was the Dog Whisperer in the US, there was Barbara Woodruff in the UK who said "there are no bad dogs, only bad owners."
Irene:
I'm terribly sorry you had this bad experience Donna!
I always feel sad when I hear host stories of bad experiences with children in their homes.
As Deborah pointed out, it's not the children who should take the blame. It's really beyond me how any parent would allow his child to behave so disrespectfully towards another adult (or child, for that matter!) in their presence.
From your description, your Airbnb is one I would very much love to visit with my son. We are city people and love to enjoy contact with animals and nature whenever we are able to.
It would be such a pity if you decided to not host families with children anymore because of this bad experience.
I wish you the best of luck (and only sweet kids!) in the future!
Donna
Yes, this forum has given me food for thought. I have currently changed my listing to "not" child friendly. But when I'm through this current harvest (up to my ASS in mulberries) and can shift back to working on my airbnb listing verbage...I will create some boundaries and expectations about kids and return to allowing kids. Probably not in the smaller unit which is so near my own front door, but across the farm the other larger unit would be good, I think. That listing isn't "live" yet, but will be soon.
Tess:
Oh Donna, I would love to see your place and stay! Such a lovely farm!
Donna
Tessa
Would LOVE to have a fellow host come visit. Soon we'll have the larger unit up and running, we're still working on it, so the listing isn't live. It's a two bedroom with a private, picket fenced demonstration garden and a jetted hot tub with child safety features. Lots of Italian tile work. Very cool. Not ready yet.
Jen:
Really interesting topic, I have not hosted any children yet and you just taught me that I need to prepare some, "don't annoy my dogs, don't disturb me just because you're bored" speeches! I teach middle school, so I'm used to having to diplomatically confront kids about their behavior!
DOnna:
Yep, really tough for me, because I'm NOT a trained teacher. Farm moms tend to be no joke when it comes to discipline; never an issue in this family. I rarely invoke the "stop that this instant" command, but when I do...it's honored. I winced when I read her glowing review of me and their farm experience, but I wrote an honest review, which I'm sure hurt. It took over a week to write, I kept trying to say it nicer. Then having to rewrite because it sounded like I wasn't communicating ANYTHING. So done is done, my first thumbs down review. I'm working on a policy statement, so that I can welcome kids back onto the farm, but for now, it's a no-go. I'm not sure how to say something like: kids are great if their not idiots, respectful, take direction and are provided plenty of activities off the farm. Folks that want to stay here and "camp" while their kids run around like this is a benign park, should choose another venue.
Difficult child guest, how to handle
My most recent guests were a mother and 10 year old. Before reserving, mom asked if our farm had livestock and if her daughter would be able to meet the animals. Yes, we have livestock, and yes, I said, they'd get to meet our animals.They arrived at the end of our workday, around 5:30 or so...and the child immediately demanded to be given a farm tour. I sweetly said our farm crew starts at dawn and were all home with their families now, and we'd sure show her around the next day when everyone was fresh. The child wouldn't take no for an answer, insisting on getting right to it. Mom allowed this, as she was standing right there. I refused and introduced them to the features of the home. My partner arrived to introduce himself and bring along some fruit from the farm, and again the child demanded a tour at once from him. Again, the mom said nothing. Ha ha, my partner isn't the best with kids, and just said no and left. I winced because I'd have parsed it a bit, but what can I say?
If it had been my kid...I'd have jumped in and said...now Miss Donna said no already...lets respect what she's said and wait until the morning like she asked. I wouldn't let my child grind a host. Not in a friend's home, and not in a bnb. Just hard for the host to know how to handle this professionally.
The next day was even worse, just demand, after demand, after demand. "Why can't I bring the farm cats into my bed? That's not fair. " " I don't care if I make a mess of your home, it's not my problem." (Mom was awesome and left the unit very clean..but the child was just over the top for me to know how to handle.) Intruding on my space...never, ever happened before...because there's a common sense about this that everyone, without fail has "got." I found myself needing to hide in my house to avoid her demands, and then she just pounded on my front door for more attention. I spent the better part of Thursday with these guests, which isn't included in my tiny price of $125 a night...which includes heating a hot tub, wine, and lots of food in the fridge. Very concerned that the mom was providing NO activities at all, (they literally never left the farm for 2 days) and the child could easily get into danger unsupervised, I ended up "baby-sitting" without being paid to do so. I made mozzarella cheese with her, offering a private class that I normally charge $130... for free. I helped her take cuttings of easily propagated plants and taught her how to asexually propagate ground cover. I really tried to make lemonade out of lemons. But I was upset and absolutely over it by the time they departed.
Refused to leave the chicken barn at once when I asked...she was chasing the chickens and they will not lay eggs for a day or two when they get upset like this. Occasionally, when a chicken's egg laying is delayed like this, an egg gets stuck and the chicken can die. It's not a minor thing to upset my hens. Again, mom was standing right there. Mom chimes in and tells her to leave the barn as I've said, child refuses...mom is okay with that.
She asked again and again to interface with the goats, which because of her age meant one of us had to stay with her the whole time. She chased the goats, and my partner handled it way better than I did with the chickens. (That is, in terms of the livestock, not in terms of the possible review....)
He explained to her that you had to move slowly and be gentle, this 10 year old just couldn't do it. So...session over at once, out of the barn you go. I wasn't there, but my guess is, he wasn't nice about it. I can't wait to see the review we get, if they leave one at all. Chasing Lance's goats is not going to sit well with him, and I doubt he worded it super friendly like.
So I guess I'm reaching out...how would other hosts have handled this? I always try to give my guests whatever they ask, and enjoy doing that....but no matter what I did for this child, it wasn't going to be enough. Normally, my guests ask nothing of me expect for directions, or features of the farm, maybe some fruit or such. Mid-stay, I went on to my listing and unchecked "kid friendly." Never again in the unit that is so close to my own home. But when we open our next unit...which is two bedrooms, I'll have to accept families. Otherwise, why rent two bedrooms? So the kid issue/boundaries/how to handle a rude child and a checked out parent is relevant. Leave an honest review? They didn't really break any house rules. Who knew I needed to write: don't be a buffoon and allow your kids to be nuisances. If I'd had that in the house rules, then they broke the house rules. But I don't.
Deborah:
I'm sorry you had such an unpleasant experience. That child has needed some better mothering and some boundaries and discipline for a long time, what a spoiled brat.
I think that what I would have done, had I been faced with this situation, would be to have a "sit down" talk with the mother soon after the child refused to take no for an answer and kept pestering you about a farm tour at the time of first arrival. THe talk should have been along these lines: "I'm concerned that your child won't take no for an answer, and this puts me in an uncomfortable position....I wouldn't want your child to decide to take herself on a farm tour, or ____" and bring up various things you don't want to have happen but that you are starting to see on the horizon, given the child's behavior. THis kind of sit down talk would be even more necessary the more such incidents occur, as did occur. Eventually, if the mother is clearly not able to control her child, then you can just ask them to leave, saying that you are going to have to ask them to find another place to stay because her child is causing too many problems.
To avoid such problems in the future, or at least give you some firm ground to evict a guest if you need to, you could make some statements like these in your house rules:
(1) Farms are fun for children, but children aren't fun for our farm animals if they are out of control and harass the animals. If you are going to bring children with you, they must be polite and adequately supervised. If the children cause problems in our household we may have to ask you to find another place to stay.
(2) The farm animals cannot be visited at any time - they need some private time. Please ask us before visiting the animals - we will take you on a tour, and explain how to interact with them.
Also, you dont really have to allow kids at all. There are people traveling as a group of adults who could use 2 bedrooms ---eg a couple with an extra friend, or two couples, or an adult with their elderly parents.
Stan:
I would put very strict farmyard safety rules online and post them in rooms too! Unsupervised children and farms Sheeesh!
Susan:
I've never even met these people and I want to smack the little tyrant. Then her mom for allowing it.
Stan:
I feel for you Donna, Maybe getting the parents to sign a waiver and an agreement that they will closely supervise their children and be responsible for an damage? A code of conduct too ?
Britt:
Donna, you are not alone there, I had to be the bad guy with children "torturing" our chickens and teenagers mishandling our baby cats, but at this point my number one is our animals, they are our responsibility and they trust us - we have to live together the whole year. I explained the children, after saying "no" that this is my place and these are living beings that deserve respect and if these children ( or child) is not old or mature enough for this then they do not belong there.... yes, I felt like the bad guy but for me my animals are here because I took on the responsibility as well as our guests, but the animals have no choice. I have clearly stated that if anyone wants a tour ( in most cases our vineyard) then please let me know in advance as we are a working vineyard and need to plan so that we can give our guests the full attention that they wish. Stay strong and firm - it is ok to set boundaries, kids or adults, guests or not. nice weekend, Maj Britt
David:
Sorry you experienced this . These are the prince and princess syndrome children. Children who are totally indulged.
Never, ever disciplined, set boundaries or taught the word 'No.' They grow up believing the world totally revolves around them. All you can do is talk to the parents and explain in no uncertain terms,that the behaviour is not appropriate, you need it to be stopped or unfortunately they will need to leave. This is your home, little 'brats' cannot be out of control, upsetting you and traumatising your animals. The kid is 10 should know better, but still a child, the responsibility is with the parent.
Sometimes all of us - been there myself - need to remember we get treated the way we allow others (guests) to treat us. Sorry, but my rates are nowhere high enough to take c*ap like that.
Jay:
Agreed David. Hell no. I don't do brats. I don't play with people's kids. I have a thing about respect in my home. I'll respect you so I expect to be respected.
Fiona:
Sorry this happened to you and your animals. I don't have any advice but am heart-ing your place and the next time I go down to the Pauma Valley area where we visit regularly I'm coming over and misbehaving until you give me free classes in mozzarella making and asexual plant propagation!
Donna:
Ha ha. You so made me laugh.
Stan:
Yay! Donna Fiona.... home made cheese and plants ....count me in :-) Maggie
Fiona:
Road trip to Donna's!
Donna:
you guys!
Ernest:
I would place in my house rules that for a fee of $25 per person (or whatever fee you decide upon) that farm tours are available between the hours of 9-11am (or whatever hours a suitable). All tours must be booked in advance and all children must be accompanied by an adult at all times. I would set out a strict set of rules that any direction given by the tour guide must be followed to the letter, for the safety and comfort of both the guide, the animals and the guests and that any disregard of these instructions may end in a termination of the tour without refund. All children welcomed onto the property must be accompanied by a supervising adult at all times or the reservation may be terminated without refund, etc..
Rene:
What I like about this approach besides being up front in the listing is, it made me see the tour as professional and respected as a antiquities museum tour and like them, it gives you an out for bad tour behavior. A lower age limit would be good to have which also speaks to the fact that there is no control over some behavior of the youngest ones (screaming, grabbing, toddler who has been encouraged to take steps, run, chase) Having a couple of your farm tours, lessons, etc be charged and prearranged will likely not encourage those like these guests who are looking for the babysitting location and letting their brats run free with the animals. It also allows you to "over deliver" for those well-behaved families (especially the parents!) who booked wanting to enjoy the setting and the experience even if they didn't book the tour.
Evelyn:
I wonder if you could do the tour as a separate listing where other people (non guests) could attend?
Jay:
i love your wording Ernest
Fleur:
Please leave an accurate review. I'd be horrified if my kids behaved that way and there is no way I would tolerate that kind of behaviour. We host children all the time and very rarely come across this type of behaviour so please don't think all kids are like this!
Donna:
You know, I'm a fairly good writer, but am at a loss for words. What would be an appropriate review, given the fact that I failed to set boundaries? A fairly strick mother myself, this is foreign to me.
Fiona:
My take is a little different than others and you were there but is it possible the mother and daughter are looking at this as having been a wonderful, memorable farm experience and will be totally blindsided by a negative review? Since it caused you to reevaluate accepting children at all it served a purpose and I'd be inclined to tell her in private comments only that said brat -"messing up your house is not my problem" is TOTALLY unacceptable - instead of attacking her parenting in a public review. She sounds pleasant and you said she left the place clean. I think the time to say something was when she was there and could have had a chance to correct the supervision issues.
Fleur:
Actually Donna the more I think about it was there something going on that was affecting the kid? I know it's no excuse but I had a family come stay with me and the children were a bit more of a handful than normal. Later I found out from the mum that her and her husband booked the holiday to Australia six months previously but then separated! They decided to still take the holiday together with their kids even though they were barely on speaking terms! No wonder the kids were a mess. I gave them a bit more flak after that and they were really nice kids just very stressed. Did the mum let on that the girl had issues? Like Fiona points out a negative review could floor this woman.
Fiona:
Wow Fleur, what a nightmare for you! Tension much? Poor kids.
Fleur:
It was pretty stressful, the mum was quite teary. Once she explained it all made sense, I would have canceled the holiday myself, the poor kids were about 6 and 8 and drove my kids (and dog) nuts. They couldn't wait until they left.
Deborah:
It always helps in thinking about what to write for the review, to focus as unemotionally as possible on the facts. To avoid overly judgemental words or dismissive characterizations of people, but just focus narrowly on exactly what the problem was, and where appropriate give some statement about the effect of the problem upon you.
In this case, the problem was that the mother was not in control of her daughter, and the child expected to do whatever she pleased and became defiant of you as the host, refusing to respect the limits you placed on her, and harassed your animals.
I would state in the review that while you had previously enjoyed welcoming children to your farm, you had not realized until these guests visited what a problem could be caused by a complete lack of adequate parental control and supervision, and how distressing and awkward it became for you when you found yourself feeling obligated to step in and set limits on the child which should have been set by her parent. You might also say that as a result of this guests' visit to your home, you are now seriously wondering whether you will again permit guests to bring their children to your farm.
Madeleine
This is good advice. You can stick with a summary of the facts because they speak for themselves. This scenario is a major reason I have a single bed listing and do not expand to families. This type of "parenting" is rampant.
René
I too like Deborah's wording. I think the only thing I would change is, "..."seriously wondering whether it's fair to the well-being of our animals to invite children to stay at our farm." I think this would not turn off the type of guest you are really hoping to attract (truly appreciating your farm and the caring of it), without any commentary on one's parenting style. "Inviting" guests seems a little less opinionated than "permitting" and we know how defensive parents can be of their parenting and their children. As far as the next listing with 2 bedrooms; I agree that there are many adult folks like us, friends traveling together, that would love to stay at a place like yours. I think the combination of not checking off kid-friendly, charged tours, and mention of lower age limit for the well-being of the animals will attract less of the families looking for the free-range babysitting location. I guess I can also think of a few one and two-child families in my close circle that would be the perfect guests that you would likely enjoy for their interaction with what you offer.
Lauren
Sorry you had to put up with this brat but even worse parents who let their children dictate to them. It's unacceptable. I feel bad for your animals but would have been more offended the kid was left unsupervised! I hope you mention this in the review maybe "Mrs. X was clean, nice, blah blah, but I was uncomfortable that she felt it was ok to leave her 10yr old daughter in my home unsupervised where I felt obligated to watch and keep her busy."
Lauren:
Sounds like the mom planned to have a vacation away from her brat and the plan was for your farm entertain her. What a piece of work
Andrew:
I really like Deborah's wording for the review. Had an adult guest treated you the way this child did, I'm sure you'd have no trouble finding the words to write an honest review, and you may well have removed them from the property altogether. My view is that when the child was being so nasty and demanding to you in front of her parent, it was really the parent treating you this way by proxy. Future hosts need to know what this adult's parenting style is like!
Not only is it a really awful experience for you (knowing that, of course, Airbnb hosts are in no position to discipline their guests' children), it's also potentially a great danger to the child, who is being left unsupervised around unpredictable animals. What if the kid had gotten kicked by a goat and injured? Or fell into a well or got run over by a tractor? (OK, obviously I'm a city boy). The fact that these parents aren't taking responsibility for their little monster and keeping her out of trouble means they are very risky people to host, and your review should get that across!
Even so, I also agree with Deborah that this is a good occasion to set clear rules about interacting with the animals and supervising children at all times, and posting them in your listing. It should be common sense, but free-range-parents with romantic visions of setting their children out to run wild on your farm need to be stopped in their tracks, and preferably sterilized.
Fiona:
Andrew may well be right it was the mother treating you poorly by proxy by not shutting little brat down but I'll offer a different view. I'm a mother and I often feel it is undermining to another adult in their home turf if I repeat/reinforce something they say to my child immediately. For example at my children's gymnastics class - if coach says something to my little one and he doesn't respond immediately I sit there and bite my tongue for a minute and trust the coach as a professional to handle his class. I don't undermine his authority by chiming in and sending my kid the message they only have to listen to me. I can see a situation where this mother felt you were competent and in charge of your domain/animals and knew brat wasn't going to get away with being demanding.
Andrew:
That is a good point, Fiona. But on the other hand, for the gymnastics teacher it is their job to supervise and discipline children. This is not part of the job description for a B&B host - we're not necessarily professional childcare providers or educators - and a fellow adult should have the emotional intelligence to recognize that their child's behavior puts a hospitality provider in a very uncomfortable position. Unlike a teacher, we don't have a protocol for exerting authority over someone else's children. I do appreciate Deborah's point that the host could have sat the parent down to communicate this to them, and I'd like to think that I would have done that, but it's still a very uncomfortable thing to have to do, and an accurate review would have to account for that fact.
Kim:
You are so tolerant Donna. I would have kicked the brat out the minuet it harassed my chickens. Deborah's wording is great. I would also leave in the review the child is dangerous to animals. I would also add the mother was very clean and left the place tidy.
Micah:
Leave an honest review about the kid. Dont hide it or another host will suffer.
Ernest:
I'd like to add that - as members of the Airbnb community - all of us, as both hosts and guests are aware from the start that this is a platform that operates and excels, by the use of a review system. That said, I review every guest - honestly, factually and comprehensively. We all should include everything that yes right -and wrong - during a guest's stay to ensure that the system is working as it should. This holds people accountable - both hosts and guests - for the experience they provide and their behavior. I find it paramount that you leave a review encapsulating the things that the mother - and child - did right and ALL things that they did wrong. This way, they can learn how to be better guests in people's personal homes. We ARE NOT hotels - people need to and should treat us like their hosts and they should act like guests, after all that's what they are, whether paying us for this privilege or not. I really don't care if a poorly behaved guest is "floored" by an accurate, honest and fair review of their behavior. If they are floored then that is their own fault for their own poor behavior, not mine, for simply stating the facts.
David:
As many of us have experienced, guest do not hold back when things go wrong from our side, leaving reviews that can have a negative impact on our overall ratings and rankings. As long as a review is honest and fair and keeps factual I believe it is best to state exactly what happened. I mean would any host really want this family to come and stay with them? And it will happen, if we continue to gloss over these types of issues. This child is the type to yank your dog's tail and then run screaming when the dog nips her. Airbnb is not suitable for everyone, so lets all attempt to 'drop' any who are likely to cause issue?
Andrew:
Exactly...if the Demon Spawn were to get injured or killed by an animal as a result of her actions, the parents certainly wouldn't hesitate to hold the hosts accountable to the full extent of the law. Hosts need to know what a huge liability risk here, with parents who can't keep their kid in line.
David:
Andrew, so, so true. I used to own a shop many years ago, and we had children like this every day. But if a child toppled something over on themselves - even though they were pulling it and I had personally warned them - the parents literally turned into crazed, monster. 'What have YOU done to my little Tommy' type response. You can imagine the litigation *some* parents would unleash on a host, if anything serious did occur.
Serafina:
I'm interested reading the perspectives here, about the out-of-control child, in the context of the adjacent discussion about the out-of-control dog that killed a chicken. I'd argue that a pet's action is much more under the control of its owner than a child is in control of a parent, but in both cases I'd absolutely say something in the review, keeping in mind that public shaming about parenting can be very emotionally devastating. In either case, it's something I'd have a conversation about before the guests left. And both these conversations are a case in point about how clueless some people can be about interactions with animals.
Andrew:
Interesting point regarding the guest's control of pets vs children. One major difference I see here is that the dog in the other incident was out of its owner's control for a couple of minutes, whereas the child here was out of control consistently for several days.
Deborah:
I would say that the host, Donna, probably has a pretty good sense of whether the mother in this case was responsible or not -- whether the mom made any efforts to control the child, or scold her daughter for responding disrespectfully to Donna, or not. I get the impression from what Donna wrote that the Mom here is someone who just doesn't know how to say no to her daughter, and thus has encouraged in her daughter the most inappropriate and bratty behavior. IF this is actually the situation (and we as readers can't be sure -- but I do believe Donna will have a sense of this) then this isn't a child issue, it's a parent issue. And it's my belief that in most though certainly not all cases of out of control kids, it is the parent who is at fault. SuperNanny helped clarify that to the public with her shows that aimed at getting parents back on track. In the SuperNanny shows, it was rarely the child who was "wrong" - it was the parenting that was a problem. Kids simply do what they can get away with....some kids that seem like true Demon Spawn can turn into sweet kids, if they just start getting some firm, coordinated parenting and adequate discipline and oversight.
Fiona:
Right on about Supernanny correcting parental behavior Deborah. And before there was the Dog Whisperer in the US, there was Barbara Woodruff in the UK who said "there are no bad dogs, only bad owners."
Irene:
I'm terribly sorry you had this bad experience Donna!
I always feel sad when I hear host stories of bad experiences with children in their homes.
As Deborah pointed out, it's not the children who should take the blame. It's really beyond me how any parent would allow his child to behave so disrespectfully towards another adult (or child, for that matter!) in their presence.
From your description, your Airbnb is one I would very much love to visit with my son. We are city people and love to enjoy contact with animals and nature whenever we are able to.
It would be such a pity if you decided to not host families with children anymore because of this bad experience.
I wish you the best of luck (and only sweet kids!) in the future!
Donna
Yes, this forum has given me food for thought. I have currently changed my listing to "not" child friendly. But when I'm through this current harvest (up to my ASS in mulberries) and can shift back to working on my airbnb listing verbage...I will create some boundaries and expectations about kids and return to allowing kids. Probably not in the smaller unit which is so near my own front door, but across the farm the other larger unit would be good, I think. That listing isn't "live" yet, but will be soon.
Tess:
Oh Donna, I would love to see your place and stay! Such a lovely farm!
Donna
Tessa
Would LOVE to have a fellow host come visit. Soon we'll have the larger unit up and running, we're still working on it, so the listing isn't live. It's a two bedroom with a private, picket fenced demonstration garden and a jetted hot tub with child safety features. Lots of Italian tile work. Very cool. Not ready yet.
Jen:
Really interesting topic, I have not hosted any children yet and you just taught me that I need to prepare some, "don't annoy my dogs, don't disturb me just because you're bored" speeches! I teach middle school, so I'm used to having to diplomatically confront kids about their behavior!
DOnna:
Yep, really tough for me, because I'm NOT a trained teacher. Farm moms tend to be no joke when it comes to discipline; never an issue in this family. I rarely invoke the "stop that this instant" command, but when I do...it's honored. I winced when I read her glowing review of me and their farm experience, but I wrote an honest review, which I'm sure hurt. It took over a week to write, I kept trying to say it nicer. Then having to rewrite because it sounded like I wasn't communicating ANYTHING. So done is done, my first thumbs down review. I'm working on a policy statement, so that I can welcome kids back onto the farm, but for now, it's a no-go. I'm not sure how to say something like: kids are great if their not idiots, respectful, take direction and are provided plenty of activities off the farm. Folks that want to stay here and "camp" while their kids run around like this is a benign park, should choose another venue.
