Post by High Priestess on Jul 7, 2016 17:52:37 GMT
After ANdrew left this forum, he went in and deleted most of his posts on this forum. HEre is this thread in its entirety
Katherine:
What's an easy way to write a review that's not super rude and harsh but gets the message across that these people take advantage.
They're a family traveling around Europe and mostly trying to get people to host them for free but when they're not able they would use Airbnb. I think they believe Airbnb is more like a hotel with a concierge. They were non stop pushing the envelope from the start. Asked if I could allow more than my limit to host all their teenagers. Then after I broke down and approved the request they wanted help to find a better apartment then mine. Finally they booked mine. Then 24hrs till check in and they wanted to cancel, get refunded and then rebook for dates that better suited them because they decided they wanted to extend their stay in the city they were currently in. They ended up sticking with original plans because they would not get all their money back from me. So then they ask well then we want to arrive very very late so we can stay longer in the city we are currently in. I said I don't have 24hr check in but I could let them arrive at 10pm. (Of course in emergency cases I'm totally flexible) this was no emergency just poor planning. They seemed grumpy but arrived close enough to 10pm. Then when it came to check out they wanted to leave their car in my private parking with their bags until just before the next guest arrived. I allowed it (I knew I messed up as they would keep the keys) so when they returned to the apartment to drop they keys off they also reused the bathroom when no one was in the apartment and when everything had already been cleaned and sanitized for the next guest. Also they were the messiest guests I've had so far using also the pillow cases as towels for a shower. Even though I have a washing machine and soap capsules. Everything possible in the kitchen dirty. But I get passed the dirty mess they left everywhere because I have a cleaning fee. I just can't believe how some people can be so rude. I bend my back to accommodate their big family when it was over my limit from the start. Then the way they spoke to me was also rude because I put a limit to the requests. They really tried to come off nice but they were far from humble. I learned my lesson that I need to be tough and enforce my rules but now it's review time...
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Jun 26, 2016 at 3:33pm katherine likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by shaun on Jun 26, 2016 at 3:33pm
Hi Katherine, I have found it hard to learn that many guests don't appreciate it when you do things special for them. I'm so sorry!
How about this:
I spent a great deal of time trying to accommodate these guests, who kept changing their plans and even went so far as to ask me to help them find another listing so they could cancel with me. After I accommodated them by allowing an extra person as well as a late check in, they left the place a mess, all dishes in the kitchen dirty and pillowcases had been used as towels. They continually asked for extra things and did not respect my no.
(Just off the top of my head.)
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Jun 26, 2016 at 3:53pm via mobile ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by katherine on Jun 26, 2016 at 3:53pm
Sounds good thanks! I'll use some of that! Just don't want to mess myself up with bad reviews.. That's my worry. Then the strange part was that this family's reviews were all good which was the reason I decided to allow them. Maybe because I come from the same place they do and are out of the country they took advantage of me whereas they didn't to locals of Italy?.. I don't know anyway thank for the suggestions!
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Jun 26, 2016 at 5:17pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by grace on Jun 26, 2016 at 5:17pm
Katherine, I don't know what your guest rules are like but they may need some firming up. I think also sometimes that when guests have a few decent reviews, they tend to figure they are good guests, and may feel more entitled to "push the envelope" as you say, even further. Also the reviews they had amassed could very likely be written by hosts who hesitated to mention the negatives, as often happens. You said you don't want to mess yourself up with reviews. You do know that they cannot see your review till they post theirs, right? So there is no chance of a retaliatory review messing you up. They can only respond to yours, as you can to theirs. This almost never happens with problematic absent-minded disrespectful guests because they are not tuned in enough to be bothered with even that much attention.
I don't know if the way they treated you has anything to do with your locale.. A family with teenagers is already going to be pushing things, because of how stressed they sometimes are and may have figured they were entitled to ask for extensive needs to be met based on their experience as airbnb guests. I realize you did learn from the experience, how to build boundary muscles and that's good. I think that Shaun's review suggestions were on point and I would shorten the comments even more. Like starting out with something positive, then in an almost bullet-point style, state the infractions and impositions with as few words as possible, so it looks more casual and less vindictive. This is just my own wording but;
"so and so were great with (insert any positive point here), with some unfortunate drawbacks; Many special requests, followed by many changes of plans, some problems with cleaning up... nothing extreme but seemed overall unsatisfied and unhappy even with host's continued accommodation of it all. Was also a bit uncomfortable with the tone they took in response to some of my limits. In all, I would still recommend guests to hosts with few rules/preferences and a higher cleaning fee to cover the extra maintenance."
Maybe.
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Jun 26, 2016 at 7:24pm shaun likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 26, 2016 at 7:24pm
Sorry to hear about such a trying experience, Katherine. I like Shaun's suggested review.
What I have absorbed from listening to hosts' stories has been -- when you first get the signs of a demanding guest/guests, start to pull back and offer less, and draw your boundary lines, solidly. Do not give in to requests for extras. Extras are best given to those who don't expect them and are very grateful and surprised, touched by the courtesy. Not to those who demand extras. So the first demand/request, that of hosting more than your limit of guests, was the first place where you could do differently next time. Be very very careful about allowing extra guests. Of all the many types of "extra" things one could do for guests, allowing extra guests is probably the worst one for hosts to do, because it tends to be (as many anecdotes have revealed) the start of a cascade of demands. When they wanted help finding a better apartment than yours that was red flag number two ( globalhosting.freeforums.net/thread/455/red-flags-hosts ) and would have been a nice and tidy place to end the conversation with them and bid them adieu.
Review...something like..."X Y and Z were difficult guests...they wanted exceptions made, and extra services, when I provided these things, they expected still more. The space was left quite dirty. Overall, I cannot recommend them as guests at this time, and would suggest a hotel would be more appropriate for XY and Z."
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Jun 27, 2016 at 12:56pm via Tapatalk maria likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by CC on Jun 27, 2016 at 12:56pm
I have also had guests with great reviews who turned out to be total pains. I gave honest reviews.
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Jun 27, 2016 at 6:42pm CC and maria like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by cottagegirl on Jun 27, 2016 at 6:42pm
As to the extra guests, I had that happen last night. We had guests who reserved for 2 people. A young couple. they showed up with what I believe was the woman's younger sister - probably 12-14 yrs. old. I had the place set up with towels, coffee, mugs etc for 2, not 3. Plus it's an extra $10 for each person after 2. I didn't feel comfortable turning them away at that point. What would you have done?
In my review, I am going to say something like "they were fine guests; however, we were disappointed that their party included 3 people when they only booked for 2"
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Jun 27, 2016 at 7:28pm shaun likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 27, 2016 at 7:28pm
I think for any host who accepts more than just one guest at a time (eg single occupancy only) it is vital that you confirm very very clearly the number of total human beings, of any age, who will be staying, at a point prior to arrival -- preferably just before the booking of the reservation. I recommend that hosts require guests to state the full name, age --and contact info for adults (eg phone and/or email address) ---of each and every person who will be staying, as a way of strongly emphasizing that ONLY THOSE PAID FOR AND NAMED IN ADVANCE WILL BE PERMITTED ENTRY. This really has to be stated strongly, I think, to have effect upon the guest. Simply asking how many they will bring is, as we have seen countless times, insufficient. The request of how many are coming has to be combined with a requirement to commit that to writing -- and with a clear statement that those not named will not be permitted in. Only after the host has made such considerable effort to require guest to state who is coming, would it be fair, in my view, to actually turn away either the extra guests or an entire party at the door. WHich is what should be done if the guests bring too many people.
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Jun 28, 2016 at 9:13am via mobile shaun likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by katherine on Jun 28, 2016 at 9:13am
CC I think it was you who told me on groups not to accept this family because they were over my limit. I gave in but I should have listened. Well atleast I've learned from the experience.
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Jun 28, 2016 at 11:35am via Tapatalk ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by CC on Jun 28, 2016 at 11:35am
Well, Katherine, I'm sorry you had a problem.
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Jun 28, 2016 at 3:21pm CC likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 28, 2016 at 3:21pm
In five years of hosting and three years of being active in the host community, I have still NEVER heard of a positive story that began with a host "giving in" to a guest's demands. Never. It just doesn't happen.
Frankly, if you need the money so badly that you feel compelled to yield the guest the upper hand in your own home - it's time to get a different job.
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Jun 28, 2016 at 7:16pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Di & Barry on Jun 28, 2016 at 7:16pm
This link might help a bit www.vacationrentalmarketingblog.com/negative-reviews good luck!
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Jun 28, 2016 at 9:24pm via mobile maria likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 28, 2016 at 9:24pm
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Jun 28, 2016 at 3:21pm andrew said:
Frankly, if you need the money so badly that you feel compelled to yield the guest the upper hand in your own home - it's time to get a different job.
Ouch, Andrew--- Katherine is new here-- or at least new to posting questions or seeking help here--- I would hate to see her run away smarting from the help she tried to get.
Making a mistake with a guest also doesn't imply we are only hosting for the money. Many new hosts are often too soft , and find it hard to say no. So one of the best things we experienced hosts can do for newer hosts is give tips and teachings on how to say no..... (Or how to say no, no and no NO , NOOO --- as the case may be --- I wish Shannon would drop in here now and then and lend some of her brass and sass because she is a good model for telling guests what is going to fly and what is not going to fly. And, Shannon has a big dog. I think when a guest doesn't respect the host they may respect a big dog.
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Jun 28, 2016 at 9:34pm Deborah and CC like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by shaun on Jun 28, 2016 at 9:34pm
I like Devorah's review. While the good/bad/good sandwich works if a guest is just kind of annoying, or if a host hasn't yet had practice leaving reviews and so feels awkward, I've gotten to where if guests were a total nightmare, there is no reason to try to think of something good to say. That's not to say it has to sound personal, or mean. Just neutrally stating the facts (that they were a nightmare). It's beyond me how bad guests think that that won't happen.
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Jun 28, 2016 at 9:38pm Deborah likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by shaun on Jun 28, 2016 at 9:38pm
Sorry, "Deborah" not Devorah. Getting a big dog is a good idea. I would like to have had a giant dog this month. That would have come in handy!
Ouch, Andrew--- Katherine is new here-- or at least new to posting questions or seeking help here--- I would hate to see her run away smarting from the help she tried to get.
It wasn't meant as a rhetorical jab, nor was the comment intended specifically for Katherine (the better pronoun would have been "one" rather than "you"). It's just that I see so frequently that as new hosts become dependent on Airbnb as a source of income, they feel pressured into compromising their own boundaries or yielding their own power. Giving in to unreasonable demands to secure a booking, activating Instant Book when they fear they're losing ground in Search, granting outrageous discounts - all scenarios we've seen hundreds of times, and quite often in the prelude to a Hosting Horror Story.
No doubt there are some Hobby Hosts out there who find themselves being treated as doormats even though they don't particularly need the money. I knew a CouchSurfing host who couldn't bring himself to kick out a nightmare non-paying guest even after he set a fire in his home. I have no useful advice for people like that, because I don't know what motivates them. But as we're adjusting our lifestyles and budgets around hosting, I firmly believe that it's important to keep ourselves in a situation that does not back us into the corner of taking inappropriate guests under financial duress - especially when the signs that they'll be a nightmare are plain as day from the beginning. It's much harder to say no to a bad job when you don't have another one to fall back on - I've been broke enough many times in life and know that all too well.
Big dogs are lovely and adorable but I don't see how having one would stop a guest from exceeding your maximum occupancy, demanding unreasonable refunds, or being grumpy and rude and leaving a mess. They might be useful for in-home hosts with safety concerns, although a dog that would command the "respect" of an otherwise disrespectful guest would probably present a big safety and liability issue in general.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 5:57am via Tapatalk ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by CC on Jun 29, 2016 at 5:57am
Deborah, when I "liked" Andrew's comment about getting another job, I too wasn't thinking specifically of Katherine, but just generally of hosts who have listed time and again the bizarre things they're willing to do to avoid a bad review--WHICH MAY HAPPEN ANYWAY--or may not!! If that strategy ever takes hold, STR will turn into a big hot mess!! Saying no is the main tool in our toolbelt as hosts. Just no.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 7:11am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by maria on Jun 29, 2016 at 7:11am
Hope that Katherine comes back.
I have thicker skin and when I asked for help recently and the alluded remarks about sharing my home was maybe a not suitable option, it just did not faze me.
I took from where it came, because I know there was no malice but only good intentions to help me; even though sometimes words, ah words are hurtful.
You (they, she, he) can write an essay on why some answers are justified, but still a person may feel hurt or unwelcome. We should watch our words. Paraphrasing Ms. Angelou, people will forget what you did for them, but will never forget how you made them feel.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 8:03am CC likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2016 at 8:03am
I like the way CC put it. None of us want to foster a hosting culture in which guests enter our own homes with the upper hand and call the shots about where the boundaries lie. But a variety of fears - bad reviews, loss of SH status, loss of income, lower search rank, awkward feelings - lead hosts to make regrettable decisions that ultimately exacerbate their problems.
Most of the time, we can empower ourselves to put those fears to rest, take control of the situation, and deliver the hospitality experience we set out to. But even the most experienced hosts still have to take stock of the big picture - be it their own life circumstances, their neighbors, changes in local law, or cost-benefit analysis - and re-evaluate whether they ought to be doing something differently. Just as we talk about "Red Flags" for guests - of which Deborah has compiled the definitive encyclopedia - there are also a few Red Flags for ourselves. And one of them is letting ourselves be bullied into moving our boundaries and exempting guests from rules.
When we reflect on a situation in which this has happened, I think we should zoom out to the bigger picture, think hard about what's going on that's caused us to "give in," and conquer that beast by any means necessary to make sure it doesn't become a pattern (the pattern otherwise known as the Doormat Syndrome). Sometimes the culprit is purely lack of experience or eagerness to please, but often it's something more serious.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 8:25am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 29, 2016 at 8:25am
I definitely see the difficulty (and have made it myself) about hosts giving in to unreasonable demands -- the problems that can arise from this --- but new hosts haven't seen this a thousand times as we have. So, even though like both of you CC and Andrew I have seen this dilemma countless times, each time it rises I try to remember that this host probably has never seen this before. They don't know they are the 7659th instance of experiencing this type of problem/dilemma in the host community. (By the way that's a joke -- I haven't actually counted....) That's why I think it's valuable to state some things very clearly and firmly, but I also think this can be done without inadvertently coming across as blaming or shaming. (Which isn't to say some hosts shouldn't be scolded! )
Also being as this is a lesser used forum than the Airbnb Community Center and we don't have tons of hosts pouring in here every day, I am hoping this can be a softer kinder environment for newbies than in some of the alternatives.
In essence the first thing I think such hosts may not realize, is that these kinds of problems with guests, are in fact a result of hosts' own problems with "giving in." As you put it, Andrew, it is indeed a kind of Red Flags for hosts type of thing -- where the host needs to be cognizant of their own difficulty saying no, and the "Doormat" phenomenon you've written so well about.
However it does seem to be the case, still, that hosts who have this tendency of difficulty saying no, have to learn by experience rather than by reading our articles on Red Flags or Doormat Syndrome. Many (though not all) may have to have a negative experience with a guest, coming as a result of their inability to say no, in order to really "get it" or "grok" what is going on. I've noticed this to be true with so many aspects in life -- that people often can't learn in any other way than by making mistakes. Here's another possible saying for the wise old prophet: "Blessed are they who only need one big mistake to learn a thing." People dont' readily learn from other's advice -- but sometimes a bad experience does catch their attention.
In this case Katherine said she learned from this experience. So in that sense she is far ahead of many other hosts who may indeed fit what you say, ANdrew, about something more serious going on. Indeed Doormattiness, spinelessness, is a serious weakness to have when in this particular business. I don't think it correlates though to being in the business just for the money....it's likely to be a thing with a deep psychological basis.
The comments I made about a big dog were tongue in cheek joking ones ----
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Jun 29, 2016 at 8:58am maria and linda like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2016 at 8:58am
I'll go sit in the corner now and think hard about what I've done!
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Jun 29, 2016 at 9:13am CC and linda like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 29, 2016 at 9:13am
LOL ANdrew ---
Better no one has to retreat in a corner -- instead we all feel free and freewheeling in our lives, running around having fun and playing like a bunch of excited kids --
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Jun 29, 2016 at 9:14am via Tapatalk Deborah likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by CC on Jun 29, 2016 at 9:14am
The situations I've seen described on the CC and on the old groups that people were willing to put up with were dire. Without being able to look back & see exactly, I won't quote them but along the lines of some guest sexually abusing their companion but the host didn't want to rock the boat...and one where the guest pretty much set up a brothel & the host said, oh, bad review if I say anything.... The dude I had who was creepy sexually sent me a text during the decline process the second time he tried to book, having the nerve to suggest that he would blow the whistle with Airbnb & let them know he lied originally when he gave me a good review & dazzling stars--if he didn't get his way. I should've told him to come on over, cuz in fact I do have something for you.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 9:28am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 29, 2016 at 9:28am
Yes, in those kinds of situations, CC, (and I have seen some too) it is important for the host community to come across firmly with hosts who allow things to get that very far out of hand. It can even become a danger for the host in some instances!!
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Jun 29, 2016 at 9:34am CC likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by grace on Jun 29, 2016 at 9:34am
One of the most valuable lessons I learned from experience only, led me to enforcing my strict policy that every single guest in the party must partake in my orientation tour, and if the other guests in the party do not speak English, the English speaking one must translate everything I say, in real time, as I say it, during the tour to the other quests. This of course does seem strict and is not always met with enthusiasm but none the less, I enforce it. When the English speaking guest says "I will explain it all to my parents later"... I tell them I prefer it to be translated as I speak, because it's too difficult to remember everything later. They then comply. Since I've done this I've had far fewer if any difficulties with following of house rules across many different cultures. This is a small shared space. My ability to pull off consistently excellent hosting and remain happy doing it under these conditions relies on my careful enforcement of my policies.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 2:11pm via mobile CC likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by katherine on Jun 29, 2016 at 2:11pm
Andrew just wanted some tips from seasoned hosts but thanks for making me laugh!
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Jun 29, 2016 at 2:11pm via mobile ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by katherine on Jun 29, 2016 at 2:11pm
Andrew just wanted some tips from seasoned hosts but thanks for making me laugh!
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Jun 29, 2016 at 2:21pm via mobile katherine likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by katherine on Jun 29, 2016 at 2:21pm
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Jun 28, 2016 at 7:16pm Di & Barry said:
This link might help a bit www.vacationrentalmarketingblog.com/negative-reviews good luck!
Loved this! Thank you hopefully someone else in the future might stumble upon it and need it too!
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Jun 29, 2016 at 2:26pm via mobile Deborah, CC, and 2 more like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by katherine on Jun 29, 2016 at 2:26pm
I can take the heat! I'm in it for the long run! I take my job seriously and want to learn that's why I'm here. Where I live jobs are hard to come by so now that I have this going I treasure it and want to do my best for my self, my family, and also the community of hosts. I see you all as my colleagues.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 4:21pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 29, 2016 at 4:21pm
Thanks for letting us know Katherine that you found this discussion helpful, that we didn't scare you off, and that you feel like we are your colleagues. Excellent! Also, I hear you, about how valuable the hosting business can be when jobs are hard to come by. I think it can be so good for people to have this opportunity -- in many ways.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 8:11pm via Tapatalk Deborah likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by CC on Jun 29, 2016 at 8:11pm
I hope Andrew got out of the corner.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 8:33pm CC likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by grace on Jun 29, 2016 at 8:33pm
CC, Andrew needs to stay in the corner for a full 24 hours, where he is undergoing an intensive course in sensitivity training - pending assessment upon completion.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 8:36pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by maria on Jun 29, 2016 at 8:36pm
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Jun 29, 2016 at 8:58am andrew said:
I'll go sit in the corner now and think hard about what I've done!
LOL {{{Andrew}}} you made me laugh.
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Jul 2, 2016 at 10:35am via mobile Deborah, shaun, and 1 more like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by helgaparis on Jul 2, 2016 at 10:35am
You were so right, Andrew. I had that happen a few times that I guessed the guest would be complicated, needed the money badly and knew I should get another paid job. But sometimes you can't and you take the complicated people nevertheless.
For the full apartment rentals, it's easier: I tell myself: If it cleans, I'llclean it, if it can be repaired, I'll repair it and for the rest, there is insurance.
As long as I'm not around, I worry less.
For the shared room it's harder, but I learned to detach myself. I close a curtain on the mess (still thinking about drilling them to clean up DAILY) and where there is a risk for damage, I tell, I order, I bellow orders. That stade is rarely needed, but even if I hate it, it feels better than swallowing the anger.
I'm more lenient on reviews. If they amend their ways during the stay, I don't mention it.
It feels strange to judge customers like children.
I think everyone falls for the bathroom trick once. My last guest who clearly intended to dry it, was deceived. She came home earlier for pick-up believing that I was still out, but I had locked the other lock, for which guests have no key. I let her in but not farther than 2 steps. She said "I need to use the bathroom " and I said no. She took it for a joke and I added "No, you can't. I already cleaned it." It took 30 seconds till the tought was completed and reached her eyes. It got me 4 stars on value, but I prefer that over cleaning the bathroom again whilst the next guest arrives. She had pulled the same trick already on early drop off (before cleaning), so I was prepared at checkout.
Katherine:
What's an easy way to write a review that's not super rude and harsh but gets the message across that these people take advantage.
They're a family traveling around Europe and mostly trying to get people to host them for free but when they're not able they would use Airbnb. I think they believe Airbnb is more like a hotel with a concierge. They were non stop pushing the envelope from the start. Asked if I could allow more than my limit to host all their teenagers. Then after I broke down and approved the request they wanted help to find a better apartment then mine. Finally they booked mine. Then 24hrs till check in and they wanted to cancel, get refunded and then rebook for dates that better suited them because they decided they wanted to extend their stay in the city they were currently in. They ended up sticking with original plans because they would not get all their money back from me. So then they ask well then we want to arrive very very late so we can stay longer in the city we are currently in. I said I don't have 24hr check in but I could let them arrive at 10pm. (Of course in emergency cases I'm totally flexible) this was no emergency just poor planning. They seemed grumpy but arrived close enough to 10pm. Then when it came to check out they wanted to leave their car in my private parking with their bags until just before the next guest arrived. I allowed it (I knew I messed up as they would keep the keys) so when they returned to the apartment to drop they keys off they also reused the bathroom when no one was in the apartment and when everything had already been cleaned and sanitized for the next guest. Also they were the messiest guests I've had so far using also the pillow cases as towels for a shower. Even though I have a washing machine and soap capsules. Everything possible in the kitchen dirty. But I get passed the dirty mess they left everywhere because I have a cleaning fee. I just can't believe how some people can be so rude. I bend my back to accommodate their big family when it was over my limit from the start. Then the way they spoke to me was also rude because I put a limit to the requests. They really tried to come off nice but they were far from humble. I learned my lesson that I need to be tough and enforce my rules but now it's review time...
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Jun 26, 2016 at 3:33pm katherine likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by shaun on Jun 26, 2016 at 3:33pm
Hi Katherine, I have found it hard to learn that many guests don't appreciate it when you do things special for them. I'm so sorry!
How about this:
I spent a great deal of time trying to accommodate these guests, who kept changing their plans and even went so far as to ask me to help them find another listing so they could cancel with me. After I accommodated them by allowing an extra person as well as a late check in, they left the place a mess, all dishes in the kitchen dirty and pillowcases had been used as towels. They continually asked for extra things and did not respect my no.
(Just off the top of my head.)
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Jun 26, 2016 at 3:53pm via mobile ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by katherine on Jun 26, 2016 at 3:53pm
Sounds good thanks! I'll use some of that! Just don't want to mess myself up with bad reviews.. That's my worry. Then the strange part was that this family's reviews were all good which was the reason I decided to allow them. Maybe because I come from the same place they do and are out of the country they took advantage of me whereas they didn't to locals of Italy?.. I don't know anyway thank for the suggestions!
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Jun 26, 2016 at 5:17pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by grace on Jun 26, 2016 at 5:17pm
Katherine, I don't know what your guest rules are like but they may need some firming up. I think also sometimes that when guests have a few decent reviews, they tend to figure they are good guests, and may feel more entitled to "push the envelope" as you say, even further. Also the reviews they had amassed could very likely be written by hosts who hesitated to mention the negatives, as often happens. You said you don't want to mess yourself up with reviews. You do know that they cannot see your review till they post theirs, right? So there is no chance of a retaliatory review messing you up. They can only respond to yours, as you can to theirs. This almost never happens with problematic absent-minded disrespectful guests because they are not tuned in enough to be bothered with even that much attention.
I don't know if the way they treated you has anything to do with your locale.. A family with teenagers is already going to be pushing things, because of how stressed they sometimes are and may have figured they were entitled to ask for extensive needs to be met based on their experience as airbnb guests. I realize you did learn from the experience, how to build boundary muscles and that's good. I think that Shaun's review suggestions were on point and I would shorten the comments even more. Like starting out with something positive, then in an almost bullet-point style, state the infractions and impositions with as few words as possible, so it looks more casual and less vindictive. This is just my own wording but;
"so and so were great with (insert any positive point here), with some unfortunate drawbacks; Many special requests, followed by many changes of plans, some problems with cleaning up... nothing extreme but seemed overall unsatisfied and unhappy even with host's continued accommodation of it all. Was also a bit uncomfortable with the tone they took in response to some of my limits. In all, I would still recommend guests to hosts with few rules/preferences and a higher cleaning fee to cover the extra maintenance."
Maybe.
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Jun 26, 2016 at 7:24pm shaun likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 26, 2016 at 7:24pm
Sorry to hear about such a trying experience, Katherine. I like Shaun's suggested review.
What I have absorbed from listening to hosts' stories has been -- when you first get the signs of a demanding guest/guests, start to pull back and offer less, and draw your boundary lines, solidly. Do not give in to requests for extras. Extras are best given to those who don't expect them and are very grateful and surprised, touched by the courtesy. Not to those who demand extras. So the first demand/request, that of hosting more than your limit of guests, was the first place where you could do differently next time. Be very very careful about allowing extra guests. Of all the many types of "extra" things one could do for guests, allowing extra guests is probably the worst one for hosts to do, because it tends to be (as many anecdotes have revealed) the start of a cascade of demands. When they wanted help finding a better apartment than yours that was red flag number two ( globalhosting.freeforums.net/thread/455/red-flags-hosts ) and would have been a nice and tidy place to end the conversation with them and bid them adieu.
Review...something like..."X Y and Z were difficult guests...they wanted exceptions made, and extra services, when I provided these things, they expected still more. The space was left quite dirty. Overall, I cannot recommend them as guests at this time, and would suggest a hotel would be more appropriate for XY and Z."
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Jun 27, 2016 at 12:56pm via Tapatalk maria likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by CC on Jun 27, 2016 at 12:56pm
I have also had guests with great reviews who turned out to be total pains. I gave honest reviews.
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Jun 27, 2016 at 6:42pm CC and maria like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by cottagegirl on Jun 27, 2016 at 6:42pm
As to the extra guests, I had that happen last night. We had guests who reserved for 2 people. A young couple. they showed up with what I believe was the woman's younger sister - probably 12-14 yrs. old. I had the place set up with towels, coffee, mugs etc for 2, not 3. Plus it's an extra $10 for each person after 2. I didn't feel comfortable turning them away at that point. What would you have done?
In my review, I am going to say something like "they were fine guests; however, we were disappointed that their party included 3 people when they only booked for 2"
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Jun 27, 2016 at 7:28pm shaun likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 27, 2016 at 7:28pm
I think for any host who accepts more than just one guest at a time (eg single occupancy only) it is vital that you confirm very very clearly the number of total human beings, of any age, who will be staying, at a point prior to arrival -- preferably just before the booking of the reservation. I recommend that hosts require guests to state the full name, age --and contact info for adults (eg phone and/or email address) ---of each and every person who will be staying, as a way of strongly emphasizing that ONLY THOSE PAID FOR AND NAMED IN ADVANCE WILL BE PERMITTED ENTRY. This really has to be stated strongly, I think, to have effect upon the guest. Simply asking how many they will bring is, as we have seen countless times, insufficient. The request of how many are coming has to be combined with a requirement to commit that to writing -- and with a clear statement that those not named will not be permitted in. Only after the host has made such considerable effort to require guest to state who is coming, would it be fair, in my view, to actually turn away either the extra guests or an entire party at the door. WHich is what should be done if the guests bring too many people.
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Jun 28, 2016 at 9:13am via mobile shaun likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by katherine on Jun 28, 2016 at 9:13am
CC I think it was you who told me on groups not to accept this family because they were over my limit. I gave in but I should have listened. Well atleast I've learned from the experience.
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Jun 28, 2016 at 11:35am via Tapatalk ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by CC on Jun 28, 2016 at 11:35am
Well, Katherine, I'm sorry you had a problem.
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Jun 28, 2016 at 3:21pm CC likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 28, 2016 at 3:21pm
In five years of hosting and three years of being active in the host community, I have still NEVER heard of a positive story that began with a host "giving in" to a guest's demands. Never. It just doesn't happen.
Frankly, if you need the money so badly that you feel compelled to yield the guest the upper hand in your own home - it's time to get a different job.
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Jun 28, 2016 at 7:16pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Di & Barry on Jun 28, 2016 at 7:16pm
This link might help a bit www.vacationrentalmarketingblog.com/negative-reviews good luck!
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Jun 28, 2016 at 9:24pm via mobile maria likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 28, 2016 at 9:24pm
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Jun 28, 2016 at 3:21pm andrew said:
Frankly, if you need the money so badly that you feel compelled to yield the guest the upper hand in your own home - it's time to get a different job.
Ouch, Andrew--- Katherine is new here-- or at least new to posting questions or seeking help here--- I would hate to see her run away smarting from the help she tried to get.
Making a mistake with a guest also doesn't imply we are only hosting for the money. Many new hosts are often too soft , and find it hard to say no. So one of the best things we experienced hosts can do for newer hosts is give tips and teachings on how to say no..... (Or how to say no, no and no NO , NOOO --- as the case may be --- I wish Shannon would drop in here now and then and lend some of her brass and sass because she is a good model for telling guests what is going to fly and what is not going to fly. And, Shannon has a big dog. I think when a guest doesn't respect the host they may respect a big dog.
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Jun 28, 2016 at 9:34pm Deborah and CC like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by shaun on Jun 28, 2016 at 9:34pm
I like Devorah's review. While the good/bad/good sandwich works if a guest is just kind of annoying, or if a host hasn't yet had practice leaving reviews and so feels awkward, I've gotten to where if guests were a total nightmare, there is no reason to try to think of something good to say. That's not to say it has to sound personal, or mean. Just neutrally stating the facts (that they were a nightmare). It's beyond me how bad guests think that that won't happen.
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Jun 28, 2016 at 9:38pm Deborah likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by shaun on Jun 28, 2016 at 9:38pm
Sorry, "Deborah" not Devorah. Getting a big dog is a good idea. I would like to have had a giant dog this month. That would have come in handy!
Ouch, Andrew--- Katherine is new here-- or at least new to posting questions or seeking help here--- I would hate to see her run away smarting from the help she tried to get.
It wasn't meant as a rhetorical jab, nor was the comment intended specifically for Katherine (the better pronoun would have been "one" rather than "you"). It's just that I see so frequently that as new hosts become dependent on Airbnb as a source of income, they feel pressured into compromising their own boundaries or yielding their own power. Giving in to unreasonable demands to secure a booking, activating Instant Book when they fear they're losing ground in Search, granting outrageous discounts - all scenarios we've seen hundreds of times, and quite often in the prelude to a Hosting Horror Story.
No doubt there are some Hobby Hosts out there who find themselves being treated as doormats even though they don't particularly need the money. I knew a CouchSurfing host who couldn't bring himself to kick out a nightmare non-paying guest even after he set a fire in his home. I have no useful advice for people like that, because I don't know what motivates them. But as we're adjusting our lifestyles and budgets around hosting, I firmly believe that it's important to keep ourselves in a situation that does not back us into the corner of taking inappropriate guests under financial duress - especially when the signs that they'll be a nightmare are plain as day from the beginning. It's much harder to say no to a bad job when you don't have another one to fall back on - I've been broke enough many times in life and know that all too well.
Big dogs are lovely and adorable but I don't see how having one would stop a guest from exceeding your maximum occupancy, demanding unreasonable refunds, or being grumpy and rude and leaving a mess. They might be useful for in-home hosts with safety concerns, although a dog that would command the "respect" of an otherwise disrespectful guest would probably present a big safety and liability issue in general.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 5:57am via Tapatalk ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by CC on Jun 29, 2016 at 5:57am
Deborah, when I "liked" Andrew's comment about getting another job, I too wasn't thinking specifically of Katherine, but just generally of hosts who have listed time and again the bizarre things they're willing to do to avoid a bad review--WHICH MAY HAPPEN ANYWAY--or may not!! If that strategy ever takes hold, STR will turn into a big hot mess!! Saying no is the main tool in our toolbelt as hosts. Just no.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 7:11am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by maria on Jun 29, 2016 at 7:11am
Hope that Katherine comes back.
I have thicker skin and when I asked for help recently and the alluded remarks about sharing my home was maybe a not suitable option, it just did not faze me.
I took from where it came, because I know there was no malice but only good intentions to help me; even though sometimes words, ah words are hurtful.
You (they, she, he) can write an essay on why some answers are justified, but still a person may feel hurt or unwelcome. We should watch our words. Paraphrasing Ms. Angelou, people will forget what you did for them, but will never forget how you made them feel.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 8:03am CC likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2016 at 8:03am
I like the way CC put it. None of us want to foster a hosting culture in which guests enter our own homes with the upper hand and call the shots about where the boundaries lie. But a variety of fears - bad reviews, loss of SH status, loss of income, lower search rank, awkward feelings - lead hosts to make regrettable decisions that ultimately exacerbate their problems.
Most of the time, we can empower ourselves to put those fears to rest, take control of the situation, and deliver the hospitality experience we set out to. But even the most experienced hosts still have to take stock of the big picture - be it their own life circumstances, their neighbors, changes in local law, or cost-benefit analysis - and re-evaluate whether they ought to be doing something differently. Just as we talk about "Red Flags" for guests - of which Deborah has compiled the definitive encyclopedia - there are also a few Red Flags for ourselves. And one of them is letting ourselves be bullied into moving our boundaries and exempting guests from rules.
When we reflect on a situation in which this has happened, I think we should zoom out to the bigger picture, think hard about what's going on that's caused us to "give in," and conquer that beast by any means necessary to make sure it doesn't become a pattern (the pattern otherwise known as the Doormat Syndrome). Sometimes the culprit is purely lack of experience or eagerness to please, but often it's something more serious.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 8:25am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 29, 2016 at 8:25am
I definitely see the difficulty (and have made it myself) about hosts giving in to unreasonable demands -- the problems that can arise from this --- but new hosts haven't seen this a thousand times as we have. So, even though like both of you CC and Andrew I have seen this dilemma countless times, each time it rises I try to remember that this host probably has never seen this before. They don't know they are the 7659th instance of experiencing this type of problem/dilemma in the host community. (By the way that's a joke -- I haven't actually counted....) That's why I think it's valuable to state some things very clearly and firmly, but I also think this can be done without inadvertently coming across as blaming or shaming. (Which isn't to say some hosts shouldn't be scolded! )
Also being as this is a lesser used forum than the Airbnb Community Center and we don't have tons of hosts pouring in here every day, I am hoping this can be a softer kinder environment for newbies than in some of the alternatives.
In essence the first thing I think such hosts may not realize, is that these kinds of problems with guests, are in fact a result of hosts' own problems with "giving in." As you put it, Andrew, it is indeed a kind of Red Flags for hosts type of thing -- where the host needs to be cognizant of their own difficulty saying no, and the "Doormat" phenomenon you've written so well about.
However it does seem to be the case, still, that hosts who have this tendency of difficulty saying no, have to learn by experience rather than by reading our articles on Red Flags or Doormat Syndrome. Many (though not all) may have to have a negative experience with a guest, coming as a result of their inability to say no, in order to really "get it" or "grok" what is going on. I've noticed this to be true with so many aspects in life -- that people often can't learn in any other way than by making mistakes. Here's another possible saying for the wise old prophet: "Blessed are they who only need one big mistake to learn a thing." People dont' readily learn from other's advice -- but sometimes a bad experience does catch their attention.
In this case Katherine said she learned from this experience. So in that sense she is far ahead of many other hosts who may indeed fit what you say, ANdrew, about something more serious going on. Indeed Doormattiness, spinelessness, is a serious weakness to have when in this particular business. I don't think it correlates though to being in the business just for the money....it's likely to be a thing with a deep psychological basis.
The comments I made about a big dog were tongue in cheek joking ones ----
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Jun 29, 2016 at 8:58am maria and linda like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by andrew on Jun 29, 2016 at 8:58am
I'll go sit in the corner now and think hard about what I've done!
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Jun 29, 2016 at 9:13am CC and linda like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 29, 2016 at 9:13am
LOL ANdrew ---
Better no one has to retreat in a corner -- instead we all feel free and freewheeling in our lives, running around having fun and playing like a bunch of excited kids --
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Jun 29, 2016 at 9:14am via Tapatalk Deborah likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by CC on Jun 29, 2016 at 9:14am
The situations I've seen described on the CC and on the old groups that people were willing to put up with were dire. Without being able to look back & see exactly, I won't quote them but along the lines of some guest sexually abusing their companion but the host didn't want to rock the boat...and one where the guest pretty much set up a brothel & the host said, oh, bad review if I say anything.... The dude I had who was creepy sexually sent me a text during the decline process the second time he tried to book, having the nerve to suggest that he would blow the whistle with Airbnb & let them know he lied originally when he gave me a good review & dazzling stars--if he didn't get his way. I should've told him to come on over, cuz in fact I do have something for you.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 9:28am ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 29, 2016 at 9:28am
Yes, in those kinds of situations, CC, (and I have seen some too) it is important for the host community to come across firmly with hosts who allow things to get that very far out of hand. It can even become a danger for the host in some instances!!
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Jun 29, 2016 at 9:34am CC likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by grace on Jun 29, 2016 at 9:34am
One of the most valuable lessons I learned from experience only, led me to enforcing my strict policy that every single guest in the party must partake in my orientation tour, and if the other guests in the party do not speak English, the English speaking one must translate everything I say, in real time, as I say it, during the tour to the other quests. This of course does seem strict and is not always met with enthusiasm but none the less, I enforce it. When the English speaking guest says "I will explain it all to my parents later"... I tell them I prefer it to be translated as I speak, because it's too difficult to remember everything later. They then comply. Since I've done this I've had far fewer if any difficulties with following of house rules across many different cultures. This is a small shared space. My ability to pull off consistently excellent hosting and remain happy doing it under these conditions relies on my careful enforcement of my policies.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 2:11pm via mobile CC likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by katherine on Jun 29, 2016 at 2:11pm
Andrew just wanted some tips from seasoned hosts but thanks for making me laugh!
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Jun 29, 2016 at 2:11pm via mobile ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by katherine on Jun 29, 2016 at 2:11pm
Andrew just wanted some tips from seasoned hosts but thanks for making me laugh!
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Jun 29, 2016 at 2:21pm via mobile katherine likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by katherine on Jun 29, 2016 at 2:21pm
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Jun 28, 2016 at 7:16pm Di & Barry said:
This link might help a bit www.vacationrentalmarketingblog.com/negative-reviews good luck!
Loved this! Thank you hopefully someone else in the future might stumble upon it and need it too!
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Jun 29, 2016 at 2:26pm via mobile Deborah, CC, and 2 more like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by katherine on Jun 29, 2016 at 2:26pm
I can take the heat! I'm in it for the long run! I take my job seriously and want to learn that's why I'm here. Where I live jobs are hard to come by so now that I have this going I treasure it and want to do my best for my self, my family, and also the community of hosts. I see you all as my colleagues.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 4:21pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by Deborah on Jun 29, 2016 at 4:21pm
Thanks for letting us know Katherine that you found this discussion helpful, that we didn't scare you off, and that you feel like we are your colleagues. Excellent! Also, I hear you, about how valuable the hosting business can be when jobs are hard to come by. I think it can be so good for people to have this opportunity -- in many ways.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 8:11pm via Tapatalk Deborah likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by CC on Jun 29, 2016 at 8:11pm
I hope Andrew got out of the corner.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 8:33pm CC likes this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by grace on Jun 29, 2016 at 8:33pm
CC, Andrew needs to stay in the corner for a full 24 hours, where he is undergoing an intensive course in sensitivity training - pending assessment upon completion.
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Jun 29, 2016 at 8:36pm ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by maria on Jun 29, 2016 at 8:36pm
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Jun 29, 2016 at 8:58am andrew said:
I'll go sit in the corner now and think hard about what I've done!
LOL {{{Andrew}}} you made me laugh.
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Jul 2, 2016 at 10:35am via mobile Deborah, shaun, and 1 more like this ReplyQuoteEditlikePost Options Post by helgaparis on Jul 2, 2016 at 10:35am
You were so right, Andrew. I had that happen a few times that I guessed the guest would be complicated, needed the money badly and knew I should get another paid job. But sometimes you can't and you take the complicated people nevertheless.
For the full apartment rentals, it's easier: I tell myself: If it cleans, I'llclean it, if it can be repaired, I'll repair it and for the rest, there is insurance.
As long as I'm not around, I worry less.
For the shared room it's harder, but I learned to detach myself. I close a curtain on the mess (still thinking about drilling them to clean up DAILY) and where there is a risk for damage, I tell, I order, I bellow orders. That stade is rarely needed, but even if I hate it, it feels better than swallowing the anger.
I'm more lenient on reviews. If they amend their ways during the stay, I don't mention it.
It feels strange to judge customers like children.
I think everyone falls for the bathroom trick once. My last guest who clearly intended to dry it, was deceived. She came home earlier for pick-up believing that I was still out, but I had locked the other lock, for which guests have no key. I let her in but not farther than 2 steps. She said "I need to use the bathroom " and I said no. She took it for a joke and I added "No, you can't. I already cleaned it." It took 30 seconds till the tought was completed and reached her eyes. It got me 4 stars on value, but I prefer that over cleaning the bathroom again whilst the next guest arrives. She had pulled the same trick already on early drop off (before cleaning), so I was prepared at checkout.