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Post by Inanna (Shaun) on Jun 13, 2016 4:25:12 GMT
Hello all, a bit of an issue here I need some 911 help with. I have had a guest who has been here for about six weeks and has a reservation to stay for another five. The thing is, he is not following my rules. It took me two weeks of telling him not to smoke on the property, putting it in writing and watching out the window and reminding him not to smoke by the house but to actually leave the property. He also leaves the back door ajar when he goes out "just for a minute" even though there are three signs on the door telling people not to do that. When I see it ajar, I close it. He merely knocks on the windows to get him roommates to let him in and continues to do this. We live in gritty, urban Chicago.
He has made friends with another longer term guest on his floor and the combo of them feels really toxic and as if he has made the space his. I feel unwelcome in my own house and have heard from another roommate that she feels very uncomfortable as well, even though they talk and smile and act engaging. The discomfort is something behind the cute, placating smile.
When I go into the kitchen around noon to clean, he is usually sitting with beer watching movies. He drinks every day. Today I checked his Facebook and realized he graduated from high school in 2014! He is 20. I asked him directly and he confirmed it.
Now, given how much fun he thinks it is to refuse to follow my rules, does anyone think he will stop drinking because I tell him that underage people can't drink in my house?
i plan to call customer service tomorrow to see if they will allow me to cancel on the grounds of rule breaking without penalizing myself.
is there anything I should specifically do or say? Thank you!
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Post by High Priestess on Jun 13, 2016 5:54:27 GMT
So sorry to hear about such a very uncomfortable situation you are dealing with, Shaun. That would make me quite angry, to have someone continually violating my rules.
It's interesting you wrote this question on a day when I was thinking about writing a blog about how to deal with Airbnb customer service....even though I haven't often had to do that, myself, and have never had such a serious situation to bring to their attention.
If this were happening to me, I would be prepared to evict this guest regardless of whether or not this resulted in a cancellation penalty on my behalf, simply because of the serious problem that such a guest would pose to me in my house. I think if you take this approach, this will help you, as you can then feel less dependent upon whatever response you get from Airbnb.
To be well prepared for talking with customer service, I would have with you: (1) a copy of your house rules, (2) a list of all house rules that this guest has violated, including the number of violations of each rule (eg, 3 times, once every day for 2 weeks, etc), (3) a description of the problems the guest is creating in your house for yourself and for other guests (eg who feels uncomfortable, and give examples of how each person feels uncomfortable -- eg, feel intimidated, feel stared at, feel like I can't use my own kitchen, my other guest feels like she can't use the kitchen, etc). (4) what specifically you would like Airbnb to do and what you want -- eg, cancel the guest's reservation without penalty to you. Do you want the guest to get no refund for the remainder of their reservation, or would you be content if they were refunded for all days that they didn't stay? (5) Be prepared for the "I'll have to pass this on to my supervisor" response, and insist on a timeline --state that the guest is "escalating" in problems he is causing at your house, and that you want him gone immediately. Or state whatever your deadline is. Very often Airbnb CX says "they will get back" to you and they tend not to get back, or don't get back in time. Be prepared to insist on getting the reservation cancelled right away. (6) keep in mind that you can evict the guest over significant violations of rules without having to cancel his reservation first, particularly if you have it stated anywhere in your house rules that reservations will be immediately terminated due to significant violations of house rules. You could just demand that he leave. Legally you are on somewhat shaky ground since he likely has "tenants' rights" through having stayed over 30 days already, so it would really help if you had Airbnb's help with this, but if you don't get help, you can just demand that he leave, perhaps in conjunction with cancelling his reservation yourself, and hope that he does.
I think it could be particularly helpful, if you have another Airbnb guest at your house who is willing to make a statement about how this guest is disturbing him or her. If you do have that, get a statement from them and quote them to Airbnb. Ask if they are willing for Airbnb to contact them about the issue. It should be sufficient for AIrbnb to cancel a guest's reservation if the guest is making us as the host uncomfortable, but I think they may be more motivated to protect guests, which is why having that testimony could help you.
Let us know what happens!!
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Post by Inanna (Shaun) on Jun 13, 2016 6:21:04 GMT
Thank you, Deborah, for such a thoughtful, detailed answer. This is great advice. Knowing that I will evict him regardless of the penalty is a calming mental framing. I am certain that the lady who felt uncomfortable using the laundry will back me up and I can get photos of my rules. Furthermore, an underage person drinking in my home is a big deal. His passive aggressiveness over the rules and the discomfort of the guest just being around him was something I couldn't really figure out how to describe to Airbnb. That's the evil genius of it, he just stands there smiling at you and yet you know that behind the smile is something harmful but you can't name it. It put me off balance so I forgot for a little while, who is in charge here, I'm embarrassed to admit! But now, I will get myself in order, call Airbnb and evict him regardless of whether I am penalized. Just checked his reservation. He arrived May 15. It felt so much longer! So I am fine on the tenant thing. Thanks again. I will post about what they tell me.
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Post by maria on Jun 13, 2016 13:00:49 GMT
So sorry to hear about such a very uncomfortable situation you are dealing with, Shaun. That would make me quite angry, to have someone continually violating my rules. It's interesting you wrote this question on a day when I was thinking about writing a blog about how to deal with Airbnb customer service....even though I haven't often had to do that, myself, and have never had such a serious situation to bring to their attention.
If this were happening to me, I would be prepared to evict this guest regardless of whether or not this resulted in a cancellation penalty on my behalf, simply because of the serious problem that such a guest would pose to me in my house. I think if you take this approach, this will help you, as you can then feel less dependent upon whatever response you get from Airbnb.
To be well prepared for talking with customer service, I would have with you: (1) a copy of your house rules, (2) a list of all house rules that this guest has violated, including the number of violations of each rule (eg, 3 times, once every day for 2 weeks, etc), (3) a description of the problems the guest is creating in your house for yourself and for other guests (eg who feels uncomfortable, and give examples of how each person feels uncomfortable -- eg, feel intimidated, feel stared at, feel like I can't use my own kitchen, my other guest feels like she can't use the kitchen, etc). (4) what specifically you would like Airbnb to do and what you want -- eg, cancel the guest's reservation without penalty to you. Do you want the guest to get no refund for the remainder of their reservation, or would you be content if they were refunded for all days that they didn't stay? (5) Be prepared for the "I'll have to pass this on to my supervisor" response, and insist on a timeline --state that the guest is "escalating" in problems he is causing at your house, and that you want him gone immediately. Or state whatever your deadline is. Very often Airbnb CX says "they will get back" to you and they tend not to get back, or don't get back in time. Be prepared to insist on getting the reservation cancelled right away. (6) keep in mind that you can evict the guest over significant violations of rules without having to cancel his reservation first, particularly if you have it stated anywhere in your house rules that reservations will be immediately terminated due to significant violations of house rules. You could just demand that he leave. Legally you are on somewhat shaky ground since he likely has "tenants' rights" through having stayed over 30 days already, so it would really help if you had Airbnb's help with this, but if you don't get help, you can just demand that he leave, perhaps in conjunction with cancelling his reservation yourself, and hope that he does.
I think it could be particularly helpful, if you have another Airbnb guest at your house who is willing to make a statement about how this guest is disturbing him or her. If you do have that, get a statement from them and quote them to Airbnb. Ask if they are willing for Airbnb to contact them about the issue. It should be sufficient for AIrbnb to cancel a guest's reservation if the guest is making us as the host uncomfortable, but I think they may be more motivated to protect guests, which is why having that testimony could help you.
Let us know what happens!! Deborah, Great advice. These steps by steps should be printed by us, Hosts, just in case they are needed. Interesting how manipulative some guests are. I see this type of passive intimidation happening more frequently to women hosting alone. Are they targeted in purpose, or is it just a coincidence? I read many CL posts of men specially asking to room with women (they claim it is because of cleanliness), maybe they have ulterior motives, and I do not mean sexual, but just dominance? A Host male would have already kicked him out? |
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Post by helgaparis on Jun 13, 2016 13:40:31 GMT
I'm allergic to being manipulated that way and would not play such silly games for so long. I talk calmly once, sharper a second time, bellow orders at tge third infraction (sometimes I'm ashamed to hear my to e of vouce, but it helps). I had to escalate it only once, when nothing helped, and got the guest to accept to shorten the stay, departure the next day.
That is always an option to amend the booking and refund. It helps if you make up your mind what will happen and if the money is important. I was sure he would be out of the door the next day, but mine was not malicious only insufferable for me.
You could also talk to him, forbid any unlawful behaviour, like underage drinking, any safety infraction like not closing a door, any disturbance to others like making them be his concierges and any breach of house rules like smoking. And write all that on the thread.
Ask a question: does he prefer to comply 100% ot does he prefer to leave? If no excuse is forthcoming, you can always say you don't believe him sincere.
With the carrot to leave with refund or the menace to be evicted and loose money.
If there is too much bad blood already, follow Deborah 's suggestions. I'd only add: insist on the safety concern, also for the other guests, and the abuse to have them play door openers for him.
If drinking at 20 is unlawful, that alone is a breach of the General Terms. They explicitely forbid unlawful behaviour at the host's house.
Good luck!
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Post by High Priestess on Jun 13, 2016 14:14:09 GMT
Good point Helga about the underage drinking being a violation of the Airbnb terms of service themselves. That is certainly something to mention to Airbnb!
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Post by Inanna (Shaun) on Jun 13, 2016 14:38:15 GMT
Ok. Wow. I just got a call from my case manager. According to what he said, he had called the guest and told them that I wanted him to leave for smoking. That's it. The guest had heard nothing about it. Then he called me and told me I needed to go talk to the guest and ask him if he would agree to leave.
I said, wait? I am asking him if he will please leave? What about the underage drinking?
And and he said we can't speak to the drinking issue, that's a legal issue. And yes, you have to ask him if he will leave and he must agree through an alteration request for you to avoid a penalty.
The case manager sounded like this was his first case. He did not show any concern for my side of the situation. He had already called and spoken to the guest while I was still awaiting instructions on the first step to take.
My my next step will be to write to the guest through the Airbnb thread and let him know that I am cancelling his reservation for drinking while underage, and difficulties with following the rules. Then, I will cancel. Better a penalty than a review, I suppose.
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Post by High Priestess on Jun 13, 2016 15:17:55 GMT
Airbnb says it can't speak to the more serious issue of underage drinking since "that's a legal issue?" well God forbid & be grateful the guest didn't assault someone in your home, or steal your flatscreen TV, and you try to call Airbnb to get him out, and have Airbnb say no, we can't, that is a legal issue!!!
Ridiculous! Sadly this seems to happen too often that hosts, particularly those with more serious problems, just aren't getting sensible help. However I think the main thing that is important to accomplish is to let Airbnb know what is going on and why you are cancelling the reservation. To keep them in the loop. If you get a penalty for cancelling yourself, you can always re-visit the issue and work on it later, trying to work up the chain and get a more senior case manager to hopefully make a better decision on this in your favor. As I see it, the main thing in the short term is just to get this disrespectful jerk out of your home as quickly as possible.
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Post by maria on Jun 13, 2016 15:20:24 GMT
Don't forget to write down your conversation with Airbnb. Recap in writing and better if you also can email them. Just remind them in writing that by not assisting you they are condoning underage drinking. Airbnb says it can't speak to the more serious issue of underage drinking since "that's a legal issue?" well God forbid the guest didn't assault someone in your home, or steal your flatscreen TV, and you try to call Airbnb to get him out, and have Airbnb say no, we can't, that is a legal issue!!!
Ridiculous! Sadly this seems to happen too often that hosts, particularly those with more serious problems, just aren't getting sensible help. However I think the main thing that is important to accomplish is to let Airbnb know what is going on and why you are cancelling the reservation. To keep them in the loop. If you get a penalty for cancelling yourself, you can always re-visit the issue and work on it later, trying to work up the chain and get a more senior case manager to hopefully make a better decision on this in your favor. As I see it, the main thing in the short term is just to get this disrespectful jerk out of your home as quickly as possible. |
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Post by Maria Lurdes (Milu) on Jun 13, 2016 15:37:22 GMT
Earlier this year I had a very uncomfortable guest situation (not airbnb, but vrbo) and I was very worried about how the eviction process will go. How I ended up framing it to the guest was that it was clear that this wasn't working out, and that he could not be happy in a place where I was constantly nagging him about adherence to the house rules. I played it like it was totally mutual, as he couldn't possibly want to stay. Because I so so badly wanted my terrible guest gone I refunded him the entire stay, basically as a bribe to hit the road. I'm not suggesting that you do this, as your circumstances are different, but you might be better off in the long run to refund the unused days just to get him gone.
Good luck, it's not easy!
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Post by Inanna (Shaun) on Jun 13, 2016 16:03:34 GMT
Ok, so, it seems to me that it really depends on which case manager you get whether or not you get any kind of reasonable results.
I called customer service to try to find someone more helpful and this time, the customer service person really got it. She looked at my profile and reviews, heard me out, and looked up the case. But then, she said that the pending case left me two options.
i could ask the guest to cancel (he would not.)
or I could cancel with the result being that I would pay 100 dollars, be ineligible for super host for a year, have the cancellation in my reviews AND have my calendar blocked off for an entire month!
Of course, I appealed to her by saying that I should not be penalized by losing a month's income because someone else was breaking the law and the TOS in my house!
Perhaps they called him, because he wrote me on Airbnb thread with the hugest apology and promise to follow each and every rule every time ect. It was such a good letter that I doubt that the case manager will approve the cancelation without blocking my calendar. Who knows. Maybe they even suggested he apologize.
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Post by Inanna (Shaun) on Jun 13, 2016 16:06:15 GMT
Helga, I wish I had your spirit! The dynamic was already set by the time I understood it. Maybe next time I will know better. Yes, 20 years is underage for drinking here and fines for the adult involved are serious. There was a lot of bad blood, but I don't have a lot of recourse. Maybe he is chastened by the near miss and we can get through the next month.
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Post by Inanna (Shaun) on Jun 13, 2016 16:08:10 GMT
The penalties Airbnb would give me would cost me a loss of over a thousand dollars. I'm going to have to suck it up.
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Post by Inanna (Shaun) on Jun 13, 2016 16:10:44 GMT
It is fairly illogical. The case manager really didn't listen to me at all. He just talked. And was pretty condescending. There was no room for negotiation and I felt coerced. Well, at least the guest promised on the Airbnb thread to throw out all his alcohol and follow the rules. And I said, also in the thread, ok, thank you for the apology, you have one and only one more chance to not break laws and terms of service. So all that is now part of the record.
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Post by Inanna (Shaun) on Jun 13, 2016 16:16:35 GMT
Maria, I did feel that. That this would not have happened to a man. A man would have been more respected. Unfortunately, I felt the same way about my case manager. I felt he had more empathy for the guest than for me and my other guests, and that he did not consider a 20 year old male drinking and smoking to be a serious issue in anyway (although the drinking is illegal and the smoking against the lease). Besides being against the terms of service, I wonder how it would have affected the insurance side of things. I would imagine it would void the host's guarantee had something happened and an underage person had been drinking here.
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