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Post by High Priestess on Jun 10, 2016 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by maria on Jun 10, 2016 14:46:58 GMT
Interest comment about people setting up these companies and cannot identify early enough when problems arise, as they have not been victim of discrimination themselves
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Post by High Priestess on Jun 10, 2016 14:59:45 GMT
I am not convinced that discrimination is a "huge" problem on Airbnb. I think there is a lot of media attention on this -- but a thousand news articles on 6 or 7 incidents doesn't prove that the entire platform is brimming with racism and discrimination. We can't look at this without understanding the context -- and the context is that racism/discrimination are red-hot issues politically in this nation, at this time. An enormous amount of attention is being directed to a relatively few incidents. If the same scrutiny were being applied to other corners of society, I believe we would find the same if not much more --eg, has anyone lately done a study on allegations of discrimination brought forth by those seeking rentals on Craigslist?
In this article, one of the incidents described, has to do with some nasty comments that were made to an Airbnb guest, by a NEIGHBOR of the Airbnb listing. It boggles my mind how anyone thinks that either the host of that listing, or AIrbnb, should be in any way held accountable, or viewed as racist/discriminatory, for the actions of a completely unrelated other party -- someone's neighbor. This is carrying scapegoating of Airbnb and ABB hosts about discrimination to a ridiculous point. This would be like blaming a host for the fact that a guest had their car broken into, or had to deal with a homeless person while walking in the neighborhood, or was yelled at by the local crazy person resident from their front porch stoop down the street.
Munoz apparently even considered filing a lawsuit. Really??!! WHo is she going to sue? Her host, for comments made by the hosts' neighbor? Airbnb, for comments made by a random nutso person in the USA? The neighbor, for engaging in their free right to be mean-spirited and to have unfounded and prejudicial suspicions of someone, and to be among the legions of people who waste scarce resources by calling the police over absolute trivia? Welcome to the USA, the land of "if a person is mean to you today, file a lawsuit."
Airbnb in my opinion is making a mistake by not publicly making such distinctions --eg re Carolina Munoz' experience: "We consider it most unfortunate that this happened to one of our guests, however I think everyone will realize that neither we as a company, nor any particular Airbnb host, can be considered responsible for actions of neighbors, or other parties." To fail to make such distinctions is to invite taking on responsibility for a whole range of things that guests may randomly experience while they happen to be staying at a private person's home. Which is nuts.
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Post by lambada on Jun 10, 2016 16:00:34 GMT
Oh boy. This is the kind of 'discrimination' case that is making it bad for the real cases. Not only it was a neighbor who they claimed being racist, but also they met on the beach! Not at the property, but out there on the beach! This just doesn't make any sense. If I were on the beach, someone came over to me and asked me what I was doing there, I'd go 'what the f is it your business!'
Why would they even have to explain that they were staying at so and so's airbnb??
I honestly doubt that this whole thing happened. Or if it was true that the police was called etc., it must have been much, much more to what they were reporting here. And speaking of reporting, what kind of journalist would publish this kind of report??
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Post by High Priestess on Jun 10, 2016 16:47:26 GMT
Good on you for noticing that Lambada -- I had missed what you deftly noticed -- the unpleasant encounter by the Airbnb guest wasn't even at the Airbnb listing!! Gosh that woman has nerve, trying to blame the host or Airbnb for this random occurrence!! She might as well have driven across town, had a face-off tiff with someone in a local pub, and then blamed Airbnb or her host for that. Really this stuff is just too crazy to even make up. One positive thing though that can come from publishing stories like this, is to emphasize that there may be a fair amount of "crying wolf" over ridiculous incidents, that gets lumped in with legitimate concerns about racism/discrimination. THere are some real doozies out there.
That said, someone else suggested to me something I hadn't realize, that this news source, "buzzfeed", isn't real journalism. I don't know these websites or what is expected of them.
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Post by becks on Jun 10, 2016 19:52:54 GMT
Oh boy. This is the kind of 'discrimination' case that is making it bad for the real cases. Not only it was a neighbor who they claimed being racist, but also they met on the beach! Not at the property, but out there on the beach! This just doesn't make any sense. If I were on the beach, someone came over to me and asked me what I was doing there, I'd go 'what the f is it your business!' Why would they even have to explain that they were staying at so and so's airbnb?? I honestly doubt that this whole thing happened. Or if it was true that the police was called etc., it must have been much, much more to what they were reporting here. And speaking of reporting, what kind of journalist would publish this kind of report?? I agree that there must be more to this story than reported. But I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand and immediately assume that it was someone "playing the race card" or outright lying. The use of the word 'trespassing' makes me think it was a private community beach right outside the property. Maybe the guest tried to contact the host to get the situation sorted out and got nowhere so they contacted Airbnb. It would be extremely unpleasant to continue a stay somewhere with a neighbour harrassing you and no help from the host or from airbnb. As for what kind of journalist or publication would report this, well there are plenty who would relish in this kind of thing. We have such a one in the UK, the Daily Mail, that loves this kind of thing - it panders to their readers who are of the "pc gone mad" brigade. |
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Post by Mabel on Jun 10, 2016 21:40:49 GMT
"and even machine learning, which Curtis said could someday be used to automatically identify problematic behavior patterns." (Airbnb's VP of Engineering Mike Curtis). Which I guess would be similar to his deployment of the same blind algorithms programmed to shut down accounts for things like text in messages, without warning to hosts. It seems he's fond of this "machine learning". Hopefully they'll initiate some sort of human to human outreach to the host to discuss said patterns after the machine learning has identified them, before "automatically" shutting them down.
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Post by becks on Jun 10, 2016 22:08:13 GMT
Exactly, Andrew. I read somewhere that one of the speakers at the recent (current?) Airbnb Tech Open said the founders have never thought about this issue before because they have never been subjected to discrimination themselves. Seems a fair point to me. None of us know for sure but I would counter your supposition, Deborah, that this is an isolated and rare set of incidents that are currently in the news. I would say that discrimination by Airbnb hosts is probably far more widespread than anyone thinks. There have been many many posts on the Groups, for example, where hosts openly state that they will no longer accept guests of certain nationalities. Others have posted about concerns over gay couples. Just a few days ago a NYC host stated on A&S that she won't take Indians any more "because they smell". These are hosts openly posting such statements in a semi-public place and thinking it's perfectly acceptable. So one can only imagine what goes on in the private decision-making process of many hosts. Of course nobody is likely to openly say "I won't take blacks" because you'd have to have lived under a rock (or in certain countries!) not to know that would be unacceptable. But I would bet a lot of money that many hosts practice discrimination on a regular basis.
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Post by becks on Jun 10, 2016 22:23:50 GMT
"and even machine learning, which Curtis said could someday be used to automatically identify problematic behavior patterns." (Airbnb's VP of Engineering Mike Curtis). Which I guess would be similar to his deployment of the same blind algorithms programmed to shut down accounts for things like text in messages, without warning to hosts. It seems he's fond of this "machine learning". Hopefully they'll initiate some sort of human to human outreach to the host to discuss said patterns after the machine learning has identified them, before "automatically" shutting them down. Creating such an algorithm must be somebody's wet dream! I was thinking about how it would be possible and could only come up with problems. There is no registering of a person's ethnicity, sexual orientation etc. so it would have to be based on country of origin and photograph. How you would go about recognising and analysing these things? And isn't your country of origin taken from wherever you register? I'm pretty sure that you can't just choose any country - the system will refer to your IP address (guessing). And how sophisticated would the face recognition software have to be to distinguish skin colour?? It's crazy stuff. Btw recently a local host was de-listed because they declined a guest saying they 'don't take Indians' in their communications. No fuss, no media, just the host who did take in the guests learned about it and reported it to Airbnb. |
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Post by Mabel on Jun 10, 2016 23:48:29 GMT
Now maybe they were on a public beach where anyone is allowed to be, and the neighbor was just being a total jerk. But generally the notion of "trespassing" does not apply on a public beach in broad daylight, so there is probably more to the story than the flimsy, poorly-written article suggests. The beach was probably a private one that the guests were led to expect access to as a condition of the rental. I don't think this is so much an example of discrimination on Airbnb as an illustration of how hosts in residential areas are limited in the experience we can promise to our guests. Andrew, the way I picture the scene, based on what has often been the case on these "private" sections of beach in front of homes on the east coast is that neighboring property owners are very territorial and also very discriminating as to who they allow to "trespass" and who they run out of the house to boot off the beach. I've been run off politely before given reasons of "liability". I'm presuming here, but I could very easily see that neighbor woman's statement that "You have an accent, are you illegals?" as true because it's so commonplace for certain people to bring up the whole illegal, or "green card" comment to confront and intimidate minorities who are not being compliant with demands. So in that case I can see that yes it did turn racists, even though (according to the article) the host tried to intervene. The neighbor may even have used the term "illegals" to intimidate the host after the host was unable to calm the situation, which means it was escalated from both ends (probably some shouting and outrage). The guest may then have felt so infringed upon afterward that she considered the irrational idea of suing someone, till she then realized it had no feet. Of course this is all conjecture. But what she wanted and attempted to get from Airbnb was some acknowledgment and an apology (though it was no fault of theirs) but when ignored completely, the incident stayed with her. (Customer Service training 101). It's still interesting though that this whole failure-to-respond-when-it-was-important-to thing is basically what plagued Airbnb at the very onset of their company in San Fran years ago when they ignored the outcry of a victimized host, till she blogged about it or whatever. I would think that a media crisis like what happened back then would have shaped their whole attitude in going forward, about prioritizing expedient responses to the outcries of both their hosts and guests alike. But it does seem it will take a harsh reminder every few years or so. |
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Post by becks on Jun 11, 2016 0:06:03 GMT
Where did you read that the host tried to intervene, Grace? I must have read a different article. Do you have a link? I have to say that what you describe as normal behaviour by locals on these community beaches in challenging people they perceive as "illegals" is shocking to me. I get the territorial thing, it's natural. Been there myself when camping across Europe! Yikes, don't ever put your chair outside the territory you're allocated. But what you describe takes it to a whole other level. Depressing.
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Post by becks on Jun 11, 2016 0:14:11 GMT
And yes, you are so right about how little Airbnb seems to have learned. They brought in...? can't remember the name... to deal with that major issue early on and they still haven't got the basic crisis management right. It's a bad show all round. All the shite about changing the world, belonging etc etc is shown up as empty marketing fluff when they are incapable of dealing with the reality of their product.
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Post by High Priestess on Jun 11, 2016 0:14:34 GMT
I don't think there will be any way to know truly what level of discrimination (on things like race, nationality, sexual orientation, gender identity) is "practiced".... We only know what shows up overtly, via actual communication, in the news, or on an Airbnb message thread, or what may be suggested from a study or someone's own story. So far there have not been many incidents in the news. We may see more now that the issue has been opened up.
I see the point several of you are making about how there may be more to this than was reported. One would think that a reporter would like to get advantageous facts into the paper rather than leave them out and cause the story to appear much weaker that way, but who knows.
The "machine learning" issue concerns me as I mentioned before with the "Big Brother" overtones. I most certainly hope that Airbnb does not intend to try to deploy "machines" (read: robot spies) to try to "ferret out" suspected or forbidden activities/decisions/thoughts on the part of hosts. EVen real human beings do not have the ability to know or easily determine WHY a host made a particular decision in a given situation and I totally and vehemently oppose any effort to try to uncover such decision making. In my view, this is and should remain totally private material, closed to all questioning or investigation. Airbnb is a third party bulletin board, not a judge in a courtroom. I would like to see Airbnb take action in cases of overt content only. If people want to sue someone alleging discrimination, they can file suit and take the case to court -- that would be the appropriate place for such an action, as the court is the suitable place for looking into such things.
THe issue of guests having or not having "issues" in any particular hosts' neighborhood, is a tricky one that has come up in many hosts' stories. My bias is that I would rather we do not see hosts in any way penalized or suffering for any "neighbor" issues, particularly issues which they would be unlikely to have known about or which they have no control over. Blaming the host for "neighbor" issues strikes me as a position that is likely to be harder on hosts in urban areas which may be slightly "gritty". Also, some might say, "well shouldn't the host at least be honest in their listing description, and explain any local or building "issues" (such as a racist neighbor) that could effect a guests' stay? " Actually, what I have learned about the Fair Housing Act and non-discrimination laws at least in my state/nation of California, USA (not sure about elsewhere) is that one can actually get into trouble (even "deep doo-doo") for "trying" to communicate about an issue like a racist neighbor or anti-gay local resident, in one's talks with a prospective renter.
I'll give an example: a property owner I know was renting out a room. He advertised and got a woman calling about it. She said she was lesbian. HE was fine with that, no problem at all. Yet, it so happened that at the time, there was a problem with a resident, who was bipolar and in the habit of making loud anti-gay slurs. He told this prospective renter about that, and she sued him, alleging anti-gay discrimination. She alleged that he was trying to indicate that any gay person wanting to rent at his home would be subject to harassment, and thus to dissuade her from renting his place. He actually had to travel 500 miles from the place he was staying, to go to court and deal with this case. Fortunately he did not lose, else he would have had to pay this woman $10,000. THis is an example of how tricky and in fact dangerous it could potentially be, to do nothing but communicate clearly about "issues" in one's home/building/neighborhood , which might impact a renter or guest.
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Post by High Priestess on Jun 11, 2016 0:16:46 GMT
BTW Becks I did hear about that incident in your area with the host who said that they wouldn't take Indians. Geez!!
And yes, AIrbnb so often seems to fail to get it right the first time -- with serious damages by a guest and great $ loss by host, or with issues like these that the media may love to get ahold of. They need to educate the front lines on how to recognize something that has that "flavor" of "wait until I go to the media about this and you read about yourselves in the paper tomorrow!!"
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Post by Mabel on Jun 11, 2016 0:55:02 GMT
Becks, It was the article Deborah posted at the beginning of the thread. www.buzzfeed.com/carolineodonovan/vowing-change-airbnb-owns-up-to-its-race-problem?utm_term=.ei17EooDz#.mhpp7zz6N"The exchange became heated, and, despite Marie’s attempted intervention, both sides ended up calling the police." Marie was the host. I didn't mean to imply that the usage of "illegals" and "green card" was commonplace on the beaches. I doubt that it is, just that it is commonplace among ignorant condescending people while confronting minorities. I don't fit into any kind of minority category but I have witnessed it amongst low class white societies and can easily see that this could have been the neighbor's intent if saying it. |
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