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Post by High Priestess on Jun 2, 2016 15:22:25 GMT
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Post by maria on Jun 3, 2016 0:45:00 GMT
Wow, that former Host is an idiot. He thought he could get away with it?
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Post by Maria Lurdes (Milu) on Jun 3, 2016 0:52:35 GMT
I'm so disturbed by this! As you say Deborah, this has to be someone doing this on purpose or for some awful agenda, please don't let it be a legitimate host. My decline rate is low (not a live in host) as I've been hosting for 6+ years, have had very few problems (although it seems I've posted about a few here recently) and honestly, I'd be an absolute hypocrite to say "all welcome" and then not live it out. Having said that, I did recently decline a request from "4 girls in town to take advantage of Fleet Week". NOPE.
I'm sickened by this hosts dialogue and please let it be an extremely isolated situation.
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Post by High Priestess on Jun 3, 2016 0:57:45 GMT
It's hard to believe someone who was serious about hosting could behave like that. The media is full of stories about racism in Airbnb, Airbnb newly asserts its great concern over this, and its intention to root out discrimination and racism, and someone ostensibly a real host, engages in such repulsive racist and misogynist dialogue with a guest? One would have better chances of coming out unscathed by driving at 40mph into a brick wall.
This is what makes me wonder if this was a "real" host -- or just a viscious sleazebag who wanted to play a sick joke. I can't see someone like that being a host for one minute. I mean, the first woman who walks into his home ...yecch....she would want to leave immediately! I think she would feel right away something was very off.
WHich is what makes me curious to know more about this situation. Was this a "real" host or was this a sick joke by a vile and despicable person, or was this some kind of setup, a fabricated conversation, meant to play into and stir up the firestorm over Airbnb and racism? I have no idea but it is SOO over the top that it is just hard to believe...
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Post by High Priestess on Jun 3, 2016 1:01:25 GMT
I agree Maria....if this is an actual real life host, please let this be a very rare and exceptionally isolated situation!!
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Post by maria on Jun 3, 2016 1:06:45 GMT
I'm so disturbed by this! As you say Deborah, this has to be someone doing this on purpose or for some awful agenda, please don't let it be a legitimate host. My decline rate is low (not a live in host) as I've been hosting for 6+ years, have had very few problems (although it seems I've posted about a few here recently) and honestly, I'd be an absolute hypocrite to say "all welcome" and then not live it out. Having said that, I did recently decline a request from "4 girls in town to take advantage of Fleet Week". NOPE. I'm sickened by this hosts dialogue and please let it be an extremely isolated situation. At least they were honest! Fleet week... I wonder what they had in mind! |
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Post by Maria Lurdes (Milu) on Jun 3, 2016 13:58:37 GMT
Years ago Wimdu used to have the official photographer act as kind of quality control. They'd come to take the pictures and they'd have to fill out a form using tick boxes to confirm that the listing was as it was presented. The photographer had to submit this form along with the photos, and then his payment was released. I thought this was a very good idea, although certainly not scalable. But for major cities where the photographer is already available, why not try it? Let's say that now it takes the photographer an extra 15 minutes. So bill me, as a host, $50 to get some sort of "verified by a human" badge. Of course it would need some fine tuning, but Airbnb has tried so dumb things, this one is no dumber.
This would not solve the issue of racism - that is really what this post is about, I'm just thinking generally of bad hosts.
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Post by High Priestess on Jun 3, 2016 14:29:20 GMT
I see the problem you're raising Andrew -- and yet I doubt anything can be done to prevent the bad or flaky, or not serious hosts from signing up as hosts and creating a listing. IMHO, ....it would be something like expecting Craigslist to prevent anyone from placing an ad for a property rental that was for a nonexistent property, or was a bad landlord. It seems just not possible...too many ads, no way to monitor advertisers, and I would even argue -- the corporations shouldn't try to vett hosts even if they had the absolutely massive resources, time and money it would take to do that in -- what -- 192 countries, 57,000 cities -- and 2 million listings. Because what tools/process/system could they use to vett hosts or listings that would be effective?
Vile and scumbag "hosts", criminals and others, could put on a smiley face when/if interviewed, and say the right things. This particular host in this story....perhaps his home is in good shape and clean, and he's affable when talking to white males, particularly if "southern." One only gets creeped out when a woman or black individual walks by and sees his face become distorted and his eyes grow beady and cold. But he could pass muster...and only be discovered afterwards to be a monstrosity in host's clothing.
If Airbnb vetted hosts...that process too is likely to contain its own set of prejudices and then you're potentially trying to remedy flakiness, non-seriousness and discrmination, by a process subject to prejudice and discrimination. What if a host happens to be eccentric, unusual? Has a floating eye or happened to be working under a car that day and got grease on their hair and clothes? I was once mistaken for a bag lady because I happened to have a cup in my hand when I went up to ask a directions of a stranger on the street. She saw the cup and thought I was going to beg for spare change -- rebuffed me before I could open my mouth, said she doesn't give change to beggars. (I happen to wear ratty and tatty clothes a lot because in my repair work I crawl under houses, and under sinks, get covered with sheetrock dust etc) So human interactions can be rife with prejudice and my preference would be that Airbnb leave the doors wide open, and rely on the review system and feedback from guests to critique or remove listings/hosts afterwards, rather than before they have a chance to try their business.
 Sorry I don't talk to those who work for a living
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Post by High Priestess on Jun 3, 2016 14:45:56 GMT
Due to scandals like this, Airbnb is under increasing pressure to address discrimination -- eg this article
www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/02/airbnb-says-it-wants-to-take-action-to-crack-down-on-racial-discrimination-on-its-site/
Again it's my hope that we as hosts don't find that we end up being "policed" in our decision making process -- I do think there are some ways of working with this that are more sensible. Such as Airbnb featuring a prominent "banner" over its "create listing" page and the message thread of host with guest, stating that discriminatory statements are prohibited --- eg the exact same thing Craigslist does for its site in the USA (Craigslist doesn't have that banner stating that, for its non-USA sites) . Thus you can't post an ad for a property rental on Craigslist in the USA and not see information at the top of the page stating that discriminatory statements are prohibited, and giving examples of such, and a link to a page providing extensive information on The Fair Housing Act. It is doubtless the case that too many hosts, having never rented property, are ignorant of these laws, and should be made aware.
I have actually thought for quite some time that Airbnb should do something like this with a prominent banner over the message thread, and at the top of the create listing page -- if for no other reason than that in my years of being a host educator and leader I have encountered even quite a number of committed and serious hosts who don't know the laws about discrimination and the Fair Housing Act in the USA.
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Post by High Priestess on Jun 3, 2016 15:51:55 GMT
Yes, I agree --- Airbnb could certainly do what you suggest and what we did on New Hosts Forum, in processing applicants looking for basic things such as an acceptable profile photo. I had the sense though that they are already working on this -- developing software that allows them to screen and see if the photo is of a person, or just a palm tree. Yet even with such a technique, it would not be possible to know if the photo used is actually of that person who signed up, or someone else. What were you thinking of as far as specific ways to vett hosts?
I think it would be quite a bit more difficult to vett listings. There are a lot more listings than hosts, and some listings are used only very briefly, then discarded or snoozed. And I am not sure what process of vetting one could use for listings one can only see a few photos of...do we know if this is actually property owned or rented by the host? ARe the photos of the actual place that is offered, or are they of an apartment down the street? Are the photos truly representative, or is there a giant 3 ft hole in the bathroom ceiling or wall that has been carefully avoided in the photos? I dont' see any easily workable technique to vett listings -- do you have any ideas? What for instance might you think could be detected about a listing created by a scumbag such as this one -- which might be a tip off that something was rotten there?
I think that much of the reason for our success in NHF (and others, on other forums) , was that the really bad/flaky/irresponsible hosts, to say nothing of criminals or vile scumbags, are much less likely to want to take the time to join a host forum. Why would someone who could care less about getting their listing spruced up and tidy, join a forum where we talk about these kinds of things? So joining a forum is to my view already a sign of commitment and taking hosting seriously. ALso, I think another reason that I surmise we had so very very few problems with threads and posts there, was that there were a core group of us who were very active and would catch inappropriate posts very quickly and readily.
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Post by helgaparis on Jun 3, 2016 17:00:03 GMT
That was a horrible way to refuse someone. Worse still, I believe that there are many hosts out there who are that bigot and racist. Maybe he was just inspired after reading about the lawsuit on discrimination.
How could you vet hosts against that? Not via their listing. You would have to vet character or statistics, maybe analyse the refused bookings and if there is a statistical significance which kind of guests are refused, analyse the messages. I'm always halfway expecting that refusals would be analyzed, but no, not yet.
I get a lot first bookers and they often are very frustrated about refusals, no contact or even last minute cancellations. I can't say, if there is a bias against certain guests for their color or origin, as I don't notice that myself, but young men or elder persons may have a hard time when they are new.
In the dying anecdotes forum was a proud statement "I only take guests with two reviews!", an advice that so angered me, that I had to scroll down and give her a sarcastic answer. But the sentiment that guests need to meet special criteria to be good enough for the host, is far spread.
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Post by High Priestess on Jun 3, 2016 17:04:26 GMT
The fact is, there is already a team of people that review listings when they get flagged. At the very least, they could move this process to the point at which the listing is submitted and knock back listings that would have been removed anyway. |
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Post by Mabel on Jun 3, 2016 18:14:35 GMT
Hahah Milu... well at least they were honest in their description of "taking advantage" of fleet week. How disturbingly true. Um, nope indeed.
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Post by High Priestess on Jun 3, 2016 21:48:59 GMT
My hypothesis there, from a managerial perspective, is that requiring new listings to be approved by a QA team would require additional paid staff at the bottom of the pay-scale but significantly reduce the workload for the more thoroughly trained staff further up the totem pole. It would be very easy to outsource the initial assessment to an external contractor, as anyone could be trained to check listings for a few basic standards in one day. |
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Post by High Priestess on Jun 3, 2016 21:56:13 GMT
If it turns out that "Todd" was actually an active and regular host with a complete listing before getting banned, I will eat my hat.  |
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