Post by High Priestess on May 2, 2016 13:57:48 GMT
For those who may at times have guests they don't get through Airbnb, but through some other site or directly, here is a thread that deals with a type of credit card fraud. Guest pay in advance via credit card, stay for the entire reservation without complaint, and then contact their credit card company and claim fraudulent use of their card, and ask that you be forced to return their entire payment. In this case, this story is particularly disturbing because the host didn't get paid directly, it was HomeAway that handled the payment, and hence they should be liable for the refund, not the host.
www.airbnb.ch/groups/content/content-218255 (German site) or www.airbnb.com/groups/content/content-218255 (US site)
Natalia shared on April 20 2016
Chargeback fraud
Hi all,
My query is not Airbnb related, but I'm hoping to find someone in the know on this forum.
I list my property with several websites, one of which is HomeAway.
I've just received an email from them with a chargeback notification, where they are basically debiting me with a rental that took place in February, made by what now appears to be a fraudster.
We are not talking about a small amount, it's more than 2K, and to add insult to injury, this includes an extra £200 fees more than what I've actually received.
The funds where paid by the guest using HomeAway online system, which I thought had me covered. They are now asking me for:
A.Signed rental agreement
B. Reservation Details
C. Screenshot of the "I Agree" button where the cardholder must click this box to agree to the terms and conditions of the Rental Agreement (one would think they already have access to this on their own platform).
Anyhow, even though I have most of the above + a copy of the guest passport, if the latter is a fraudster, I don't think it will have any value. Apparently the decision relies with Visa, they (HomeAway) will forward the documentation, but ultimately, they will hide behind a small print, of which I wasn't even aware, and if anything goes south, I'll have to foot the bill.
Can anything like this happen on Airbnb? Looks to me like hosts are better protected here. If there anyone on this forum that can offer advice, either from personal experience or legal know-how it will be most welcome.
Lizzie
Regret I am unable to offer any advice but wanted to commiserate with you & hope you will be able to resolve this issue.
Dieneke
This happened to me in my work - you have to give them all the evidence but often the fraudsters use someone else's credit card and know what they do. I had to take my losses, which were considerable and put it down to learning and be award that it doesn't happen again. But in your case you might want to check who is responsible for checking the credit card is not fake. If that is Homeaway then they are responsible not you
Natalia
In theory it should be their responsibility since I have no means to check the C/C used.. they take all the details and charge the guest through an online payment system - similar to airbnb.
Sara
Natalia we have had charge backs at my flower shop even though we follow all the rules and get a code over specific amounts if they can't collect they charge and fine us the worst that was very recent a chap came in and ordered flowers on his cc for a delivery card went through we take all phone numbers etc in case of non delivery he then went to the most famous London store begins with H and spent twenty five thousand on same card when police turned up to see if we had any info we handed all phone numbers addresses etc which were real so they got caught they had bought t. The flowers to test if card went through its not an ABB story but shows how we are all possible victims of cc fraud
Wish you luck
Dieneke
Hi Sara, what a story. Yes you have to be really aware of it. For our E-SHop we use Paypal and they do sometimes warn us, but in some cases you have to doublecheck addresses. Natalia, if you didn't approve the credit card, they really should not pass this on to you You have to look at the small print.
Alon
Natalia,
Your account is truly disturbing.
Moreover, since I don't have other business experience I'm baffled by the details, notably 'A.Signed rental agreement.' Given the company HomeAway handles the booking, how is it that they don't require this rental agreement every time they take a booking?
The question as you pose, if Airbnb operates differently?
With Airbnb I have always assumed since the company conducts the financial transaction, and warns it should only be conducted on the website, the company is entirely liable for any problem.
Perhaps it's worth getting a good investigative journalist to do an article on this topic to be published in a national newspaper. Adverse publicity can have a galvanizing effect and focus attention on the small print.
Otherwise, we do have one solicitor who regularly participates on this hub. Dom.
Perhaps he can address the issue.
Sara
Alon how about the Teledraph journalist who is an ABB host
Alon
I don't know this host? Does he/she participate on this hub or another one? In any case, it should be someone who is versed in this kind of subject matter.
Natalia
Yes, surely is disturbing. The whole experience has been extremely frustrating - you are lulled into a false sense of security having them handling the payment, but it's not the case.
I forgot the following points, which they also ask to provide:
D. Compelling evidence that the cardholder participated in the transaction
E. Rebuttal letter addressing the cardholder’s claim, including any attempts made by the property to resolve this matter directly with the cardholder
F. Provide copy of credit receipt, if applicable
Yapstone, the company that processes the payments for HomeAway will dispute the chargeback with Visa, but ultimately, I'm responsible for paying back. In 5 days they are in fact charging me via d/d (this is the method used to make the disbursements as well) the full amount + an extra £200
HomeAway is totally washing their hands by passing the bucket.
If there is a lesson to be learned here, it's not to deal with HomeAway or any companies with these ethos. Anything goes wrong you are left on your own - if the payments you receive from them can be disputed a couple of months later, it's not safe.
Am I wrong or it seems that only consumers are protected, but not service providers? We are mainly small business owners here, so instances like this can have an impact. Also, it's so difficult to prove anything when you don't have the resources - that's why rely on third parties.
If there is an investigative journalist on this forum that wants to get in touch please do. At least, other unaware hosts can be informed about the risks of dealing with some online platforms such as HA.
Any lawyer that can direct me to the best course of action, iif there is anything/organisation that protects hosts (or business owners) in such situations, of course most appreciated.
Dieneke
Dieneke10 days ago
Hello Natalia, I just looked at the terms and conditions from Home & Away. They use Yapstone as their payment platform and pass on any responsability to them. Looking at Yapstone's terms and conditions they pass on any liabiility to the customer. So you probably don't stand a chance from that point of view. However, this is not how a Site should be run. Their terms are awful and so different from Airbnb. This story could go in a financial column about cheats and they should contact Yapstone as well as Homeaway as it is absolutely atrocious. If Liz Hopkinson has no time, then contact the Evening Standard or the Sunday Times who also has a good money section. But of course probably the Telegraph as well. What I have found that also helps is do a tweet and copy in both Homeaway and Yapstone with their twitter addresses and do the chargeback with #. It is a very good way to make noise and get noticed and something actioned. Good luck Dieneke
Sara
Sara10 days ago
Her name is Liz Hodgkinson at least she would have the right connections being a host and a Telegraph journalist
Alon
Alon10 days ago
Natalia,
I've checked Liz Hodgkinson's website and 'Property' is one of her areas of specialization. So as Sara suggests it's worth contacting Liz.
I also emailed solicitor Dom and asked him to check this post, so perhaps he will comment in due course.
Natalia
Natalia10 days ago
Dieneke, Sara and Alon thank you so much - all very helpful points.
Sara
Die eke the Sunday Times or any Sunday is too late they are printed now the Standard is owned by Daily Mail Group,strongly suggest Liz as its a daily and she has already written about ABB see if she has a contact or Twitter account and I'm sure she will want the story as she knows the system good luck
Dieneke
Hi Sara, sounds good if she wants to do it. Otherwise there are the other options. But probably no one really will see this as extremely urgent so it might not come out immediately. Importantly is making noise and getting it resolved so that Natalia doesn't need to pay the chargeback which is totally wrong.
Alon
If there is no guarantee when a story will come out, creating noise in the media maybe effective in the long-run. -- Perhaps more immediate way to challenge the companies is via a solicitor. There will be costs, but a solicitor maybe able to predict which side will have to bear costs, especially if there are cases of precedence.
Sara
Only mentioned Standard because you don't want a London only paper as you need maximum publicity
Dieneke
Good point.
Sara
As you will be giving Liz a free story for which she will get paid its win win for her if a solicitor gets involved paper can't touch it yet so be sure you,choose the route you take
Natalia
something I forgot to point out - in all of this, since I have a pic of the guest passport image, can I report this London roaming fraudster to the police?
Alon
Natalia, I would say police should be first port of call in any case of fraud.... Come to think of it, not sure why HomeAway haven't involved police. Or have they? In short, if it's fraud, police priority rather than media.
Dieneke
When we had our chargeback case which involved a number of people we also contacted the police. There is a department involved in this. Didn't help much - their rolse seems to be much more that of comforting and also give the victim the feeling that they are not alone.
Sara
Yes of course I thought you did that it's a crime
Natalia
Have done this afternoon, at no avail. Apparently it's a civil matter (my end) and the fraud charge has to be pressed by Visa not myself.
Dieneke
Hello Natalia, I found the organisation to contact in the Police who will deal with this and passes it on as required. They are called Action Fraud. They are the UKs national reporting centre for fraud and internet crime. Their address is actionfraud dot police dot uk . You report the details to them first, and the passport details you have. They then pass it on to the relevant police department to investigate further. In my case they couldn't really do anything. But it is worth trying, particularly as you have the passport details - although that may be false as well. Also it makes you feel better that someone is helping you with it. Good luck
Natalia
Alon, HomeAway did absolutely nothing to help - zero. I now come to understand that they are nothing more than a sort of gumtree for your rental even if they want to compete with airbnb they're miles away.
Dieneke, seems like the fraud will get off scot-free then...
I'm so tempted to stop my DD with them, if it wan't for fear of something they might do to my credit score
Dieneke
Natalia, yes probably they do. We tried everything and lost thousands. I had to take out a loan in the end. But through making noise, and you could email tweet about it yourself you can put pressure on HomeAway and Yapstone for them to take on the loss and not you. Someone needs to contact Liz probably sooner rather than later to see what she says. If not you can try any of the other routes. Twitter is quite effective. We had a mistaken Thames Water bill which was for around £250,000. It happened on 1 April so I tweeted about it. It was resolved in no time. They actually had a Thames Water person dedicated to replying tweets from angry customers. The press also picks up stories from Twitter.
Sara
No Natalia they will be caught fraud is a crime with special police for cyber crimes I suggest you try to meet up with Liz she can direct you also that guy Dom on fake Britain
Natalia
Basically there is myself, HomeAway, Yapstone (the company collecting the payments) and Visa. There is even a 5th, called GoCardless, and they are the ones that will debit my account. A maze. Wherever I call, I get pointed to the other company - even the police, they told me it's Visa that is supposed the press the fraud charges, not me. I'm starting to get a headache. Until few days ago, I thought one of the biggest challenges of hosting was actually finding the right cleaner..
Natalia
Dieneke, have sent an email to Liz earlier this afternoon, hopefully she'll get back.
Dieneke
That is good to hear.
Sara
Remember if she is on weekly paper she won't be in the Telegrapgh till Monday do you want me to ask a friend of mine who works on Telegraph if he has seen her this week?
Natalia
Thanks Sara, I've contacted Liz through the online form on her website, hopefully she'll find it newsworthy.. Will keep you posted
Dieneke
Natalia. the way it works is that the fraudster contacts visa and says that the card is used fraudulently. As payment transactions are overseen by yapster they will notify yapster who then has to make a case that it isn't fraud. So they need to present proof of this. They then go to HomeWay who they have a contract with who then passes it on to you. That is incorrect as Homeaway through who. You did the booking should have the information. However they pass it on to you. In my case it concerned delivery of goods so I needed to have proof of delivery. In your case it should. E the booking confirmation from HomeWAy and if you have passport picture the better. I have details of who to contact in the police at the office, but I will see whether I can find a relevant email tomorrow. Poor you.
Dieneke
Natalia, just to add, but comparing your chargeback situation with ours. We use Paypal and Paypal had flagged a problem and stated that the payment was not protected, which is why we lost. Now Yapster should have a similar mechanism - as anyone - where they can see whether a payment is protected or not. If potentially fraudulent they should do further checks before proceeding with accepting the payment. Now they need proof of the fact that the person who is named on the credit card is the same person that stayed with you. So your passport evidence is perfect. This should go to Homeaway for them to pass on to Yapster. That should be enough evidence for them to know whether the person that used the credit card with a named person is the same as the person that stayed with you. In no account should they pass on payment to you. In first instance it might be Yapster who haven't followed the correct procedures. Or they alerted Homeaway who then failed to alert you. SO bottom line is Yapster is liable and you should battle it with them. As you are not the person in contact with Visa, but you have contact with Homeaway you take it up with Homeaway and they should not charge you. Bottom line they have to pay. Hope that clarifies it.
Dieneke
And don't panic. Just take it easy. These processes take a long time and if I remember correctly Yapster has 1 week to present evidence to Visa who will then go back to the fraudster - and then one can present further evidence.
Natalia
Dieneke - is it a good idea to stop the direct debit mandate with them or just pay up and hope for a refund after it has been investigated?
Dieneke
Natalia, I would stop the direct debit mandate. But not pay up. You should ask them the reason why they lay the blame with you. You also will have to make clear to them that until this has been resolved they should not charge you. In the end you are not responsible but it is they. You might ask questions like:
When the credit card was presented was there a fraud risk and was Homeaway be made aware of this?
What is the reason that they want you to pay.
The more you know the better, also for an article. You will have to expose their unethical behaviour. But it also may be the case that whoever dealt with this doesn't understand what it involves and panicked as well.
And ask anything else that is unclear for you.
Dieneke
May I ask but how much money is involved?
Natalia
£2K
Susan
Natalia, sorry you're having to deal with this. Very stressful for you. Have you tried doing a go ogle Reverse Image search on the guy's photo to see if it pops up anywhere else? If he's a serial con man, there's a chance you might be able to dig up some dirt on him that way. Best of luck with getting it sorted.
Dieneke
Natalia, that is a lot. Don't give in. Let Homeway and Yapster battle it out. How do they dare ask you for the money. That really would be a news story they surely don't want.
Dieneke
Are you on Twitter ?
Natalia
I do, albeit a dormant one..
Sara
Natalia we are all here to be supportive to you in any way and thanks for warning us about Homeaway sorry for your stress
Antwort Gefällt mir 1 Like
Maxine
Maxine9 days ago
Natalia. What Dienieke advises you is spot on. You did not handle the transaction, thereby there is no contract between you and the guest/fraudster. The contract lies with Homeaway. Their payment handlers should have had verifications in place- & if a risk was raised it was passed to Homeaway who did nothing & accepted the risk, not you. You weren't even aware of it.
It's between HomeAway and their payments handler both of whom should have insurance/processes in place to cover this sort of thing
Have a read of the terms of service between you and HomeAway - does it even mention fraud or charge back procedures?
Long & short of it they are trying it on by passing their loss to you. It's not your issue its there's.
Address all correspondence headed up Without Prejudice
And keep your questions consistent & factual- don't let them distract & obsficate matters and remain non-emotional
Stick to the point
1. You do not accept any liability in the matter
2. The matter & loss is a matter between HomeAway & their payments handler
3. You had no involvement in the transaction-
4. You contract is with HomeAway & is only concerned with provision of service to their client (the guest)
5. You provided the service to their client for which you have rightfully been paid & concludes the contract between you and HomeAway
6. It is their responsibility to seek payment from their client
7. You have a copy of their clients passport (if it's not a fake) which you can send them
Them asking you for copy of rental agreement etc is a nonsense- that's between them & their client & therefore already at gand to them, not you.
What they are trying to do is say they act as your agent. But as you have no access to 'their' client data or the transactions or agreement- they are not merely acting as agent but as the primary client
Hope this makes sense & best of luck with resolving it. Stay strong
Antwort Gefällt mir 1 Antwort
Natalia
Natalia9 days ago
Thank you Maxine for the in depth explanation. These are the parts about payments, from HomeAway T&Cs: (don't hink I'm allowed to post link. (3) ....owner further commits to manage communications enquiries and booking payments through HomeAway’s platform and tools. Use of external tools and payments not processed through HomeAway’s platform is strictly forbidden (4) Processing of the amounts paid by the Travellers, less HomeAway’s commission, is managed by HomeAway’s third party provider Yapstone International Limited...Owner acknowledges and accepts that HomeAway has no involvement in the payment process and shall have no responsibility with regards to the correct payment of the booking. Latest email from Yapstone: "We would like to draw your attention to paragraph 1.10 pertaining to chargebacks. Please note that you are fully liable for all chargeback amounts received by YapStone on your behalf and your account will be off set to reflect this transaction. In the event of failure on behalf of YapStone to recover these funds from your account we will forward your account to our collections department. " Paragraph 1.10 Chargebacks and Reversals. "Any Payment by a Guest is subject to a right of Chargeback if paid by credit or debit card and depending upon the Payment method may be subject to a Reversal, these rights exist between the Guest and their respective bank or credit card issuer. In the event of a Chargeback or Reversal of any Payment by a Guest, YapStone will automatically deduct such amount plus any fees associated with the Chargeback or Reversal from Your bank account. Thereafter, YapStone will use commercially reasonable efforts to investigate the validity of the Chargeback or Reversal on Your behalf. You agree to cooperate with YapStone and to provide any information that may be reasonably requested by YapStone in its investigation. You are liable for all Chargeback or Reversals of Payments processed on Your behalf by YapStone, including the Chargeback Fee listed the Fees Schedule." HomeAway obliges you to use their online payment and through further T&Cs from Yapstone, you have to take full responsibility for it. When you sign up with HomeAway, it's not immediately visible, that you are liable in the event of chargebacks. It just seems so wrong that they are able to provide a service where they handle your payments - don't give you any access to it - and at the same time have T&Cs that waves them for any responsibility.
Natalia
Natalia9 days ago
sorry for the big 'lump' of words above - paragraphs seem to have melted..
Antwort Gefällt mir 3 Antworten
Alon
Alon9 days ago
Natalia, the lumping is due to posting by 'REPLY' (as you did in 'Thank you Maxine...'.) The Reply prompt gives a faint 'write a reply' (as I'm doing now). -- For separation of paragraphs you rather need the other option as you just did in 'sorry...' The faint prompt for this option 'write a comment').
Dieneke
Dieneke9 days ago
Hello Natalia, Maxine' point by point reply is the way forward. With regards to the terms & conditions you describe, they cannot legally pass this on to you as the contract is between Yapstone & Homeaway. They cannot pass this onto you and both companies will be on very shaky ground. Neither of them i am sure will want this published.
Alon
Alon9 days ago
It seems like work for a solicitor. I can recommend my own who specializes in property. About 18 months ago he got me out of a bind with a Kitchen refurbishment company for prospective work £4-5k that I wanted to cancel within 14 day Cancellation period, but hadn't perused the trick & trap small-print. It took my solicitor less than 1/2 hour to peruse the contract, expose the flaw in the small-print, and draft a letter with counter-claim for unethical practise. We never heard from the company again.
Sara
Sara9 days ago
Natalia- after reading your terms and conditions I would agree totally with Alon you need an expert. Wow have we all read the T and CS in ABB?
Antwort Gefällt mir
Dieneke
Dieneke9 days ago
I had a quick look at the T and Cs for Airbnb. The payment equivalent is Airbnb Payment Services. The contract is directly with the Host. However it doesn't mention chargeback, but does mention the Airbnb guarantee. It also is much more straightforward and detailed then the other one. There is also very clear information about checking credit cards and other means of payment before accepting. So they follow a procedure most likely that should exclude the situation where a chargeback is made by a credit card company. It shows you the huge difference between Homeaway and Airbnb. We should be grateful for that!
Antwort Gefällt mir
Sara
Sara9 days ago
Thanks Dieneke
Antwort Gefällt mir
Dom
Dom 9 days ago
Natalie, sorry to hear about your problem with HomeAway.
Fraudulent use of credit cards is usually use of stolenllost cards, cloned card, or fraudulent representations, such as stolen or fake documents, o obtain the account, if the latter, then the credit card company will take responsibility. As this would have been an online booking, it's more difficult to detect. Technically, Visa is the victim. I think you should persevere with the police as although you are not lie victim you are a witness as presumably you met the fraudsters when they stayed at your place. There are jurisdiction issues here also Do you know which country the fraudster made the transaction from. You state that HomeAway"s terms and conditions pass on the Chargeback to you. If this is so, I would not recommend instructing a solicitor as it could cost a great deal more than the £2K you have already sustained. Ultimately you would have to be prepared to pursue HomeAway in court arguing it's an unfair contract term. Again, there will be jurisdiction difficulties as the company is based is US. I think Alon and Sara"s suggestion of getting publicity is excellent as it will put pressure on HomeAway to back down and take the hit, it is not going to want a mass exodus of hosts to Airbnb. Are there HomeAway forum groups like this where you can discuss with other hosts as they will be concerned it may happen to them also.
Saying that it's unusual, as most fraudsters purchase goods to sell on quickly. It's more risky to book a holiday.
If you would like, I can send a letter to HomeAway raising your concerns and try to persuade not to implement the Chargeback. I will not charge you. I will be at my office Monday afternoon. Phone number (phone number hidden) if you would like to call.
Alon, you cannot email me as my email address is incorrect. There is a letter missing. I have tried to change and spoken to cs but remains same.
Antwort Gefällt mir 1 Antwort•2 Likes
Natalia
Natalia8 days ago
Thank you Dom, as you can gather, it's one of the usual stories of companies hiding behind the small print. Thank you for your offer to help
Zandra
Zandra9 days ago
Having been the victim of fraud and theft ...l can only say how sorry I am you're in this situation. I really hope you get a good resolution to this
Antwort Gefällt mir 1 Like
Dom
Dom 8 days ago
Natalie My number ________________.
Antwort Gefällt mir 1 Antwort
Maxine
Maxine8 days ago
Great advice Dom (and others) - BTW: Where did you buy that lovely sofa bed on wheels? I need one and it looks easy to move around by one person, as on wheels. Sorry off topic question, but as you said your email via profile is not working, I couldn't send private message. I had email problem with ABB when I changed provider, and they said they couldn't fix it - gave me a load of baloney about it being a dot com - I had my engineer look into it and he said the system was caching the previous IP address. Anyway, in the end they said set up a gmail account and use that. So that's what I had to do. But hey they are only a 25bn technology company .... bless them
Dom
Dom 8 days ago
Maxine I gave up trying to change it. I will probably miss something important one day but never mind. The sofa bed is from IKEA. It's very ease to move around and convert back and forth.
Maxine
Maxine7 days ago
Thanks Dom :-)
www.airbnb.ch/groups/content/content-218255 (German site) or www.airbnb.com/groups/content/content-218255 (US site)
Natalia shared on April 20 2016
Chargeback fraud
Hi all,
My query is not Airbnb related, but I'm hoping to find someone in the know on this forum.
I list my property with several websites, one of which is HomeAway.
I've just received an email from them with a chargeback notification, where they are basically debiting me with a rental that took place in February, made by what now appears to be a fraudster.
We are not talking about a small amount, it's more than 2K, and to add insult to injury, this includes an extra £200 fees more than what I've actually received.
The funds where paid by the guest using HomeAway online system, which I thought had me covered. They are now asking me for:
A.Signed rental agreement
B. Reservation Details
C. Screenshot of the "I Agree" button where the cardholder must click this box to agree to the terms and conditions of the Rental Agreement (one would think they already have access to this on their own platform).
Anyhow, even though I have most of the above + a copy of the guest passport, if the latter is a fraudster, I don't think it will have any value. Apparently the decision relies with Visa, they (HomeAway) will forward the documentation, but ultimately, they will hide behind a small print, of which I wasn't even aware, and if anything goes south, I'll have to foot the bill.
Can anything like this happen on Airbnb? Looks to me like hosts are better protected here. If there anyone on this forum that can offer advice, either from personal experience or legal know-how it will be most welcome.
Lizzie
Regret I am unable to offer any advice but wanted to commiserate with you & hope you will be able to resolve this issue.
Dieneke
This happened to me in my work - you have to give them all the evidence but often the fraudsters use someone else's credit card and know what they do. I had to take my losses, which were considerable and put it down to learning and be award that it doesn't happen again. But in your case you might want to check who is responsible for checking the credit card is not fake. If that is Homeaway then they are responsible not you
Natalia
In theory it should be their responsibility since I have no means to check the C/C used.. they take all the details and charge the guest through an online payment system - similar to airbnb.
Sara
Natalia we have had charge backs at my flower shop even though we follow all the rules and get a code over specific amounts if they can't collect they charge and fine us the worst that was very recent a chap came in and ordered flowers on his cc for a delivery card went through we take all phone numbers etc in case of non delivery he then went to the most famous London store begins with H and spent twenty five thousand on same card when police turned up to see if we had any info we handed all phone numbers addresses etc which were real so they got caught they had bought t. The flowers to test if card went through its not an ABB story but shows how we are all possible victims of cc fraud
Wish you luck
Dieneke
Hi Sara, what a story. Yes you have to be really aware of it. For our E-SHop we use Paypal and they do sometimes warn us, but in some cases you have to doublecheck addresses. Natalia, if you didn't approve the credit card, they really should not pass this on to you You have to look at the small print.
Alon
Natalia,
Your account is truly disturbing.
Moreover, since I don't have other business experience I'm baffled by the details, notably 'A.Signed rental agreement.' Given the company HomeAway handles the booking, how is it that they don't require this rental agreement every time they take a booking?
The question as you pose, if Airbnb operates differently?
With Airbnb I have always assumed since the company conducts the financial transaction, and warns it should only be conducted on the website, the company is entirely liable for any problem.
Perhaps it's worth getting a good investigative journalist to do an article on this topic to be published in a national newspaper. Adverse publicity can have a galvanizing effect and focus attention on the small print.
Otherwise, we do have one solicitor who regularly participates on this hub. Dom.
Perhaps he can address the issue.
Sara
Alon how about the Teledraph journalist who is an ABB host
Alon
I don't know this host? Does he/she participate on this hub or another one? In any case, it should be someone who is versed in this kind of subject matter.
Natalia
Yes, surely is disturbing. The whole experience has been extremely frustrating - you are lulled into a false sense of security having them handling the payment, but it's not the case.
I forgot the following points, which they also ask to provide:
D. Compelling evidence that the cardholder participated in the transaction
E. Rebuttal letter addressing the cardholder’s claim, including any attempts made by the property to resolve this matter directly with the cardholder
F. Provide copy of credit receipt, if applicable
Yapstone, the company that processes the payments for HomeAway will dispute the chargeback with Visa, but ultimately, I'm responsible for paying back. In 5 days they are in fact charging me via d/d (this is the method used to make the disbursements as well) the full amount + an extra £200
HomeAway is totally washing their hands by passing the bucket.
If there is a lesson to be learned here, it's not to deal with HomeAway or any companies with these ethos. Anything goes wrong you are left on your own - if the payments you receive from them can be disputed a couple of months later, it's not safe.
Am I wrong or it seems that only consumers are protected, but not service providers? We are mainly small business owners here, so instances like this can have an impact. Also, it's so difficult to prove anything when you don't have the resources - that's why rely on third parties.
If there is an investigative journalist on this forum that wants to get in touch please do. At least, other unaware hosts can be informed about the risks of dealing with some online platforms such as HA.
Any lawyer that can direct me to the best course of action, iif there is anything/organisation that protects hosts (or business owners) in such situations, of course most appreciated.
Dieneke
Dieneke10 days ago
Hello Natalia, I just looked at the terms and conditions from Home & Away. They use Yapstone as their payment platform and pass on any responsability to them. Looking at Yapstone's terms and conditions they pass on any liabiility to the customer. So you probably don't stand a chance from that point of view. However, this is not how a Site should be run. Their terms are awful and so different from Airbnb. This story could go in a financial column about cheats and they should contact Yapstone as well as Homeaway as it is absolutely atrocious. If Liz Hopkinson has no time, then contact the Evening Standard or the Sunday Times who also has a good money section. But of course probably the Telegraph as well. What I have found that also helps is do a tweet and copy in both Homeaway and Yapstone with their twitter addresses and do the chargeback with #. It is a very good way to make noise and get noticed and something actioned. Good luck Dieneke
Sara
Sara10 days ago
Her name is Liz Hodgkinson at least she would have the right connections being a host and a Telegraph journalist
Alon
Alon10 days ago
Natalia,
I've checked Liz Hodgkinson's website and 'Property' is one of her areas of specialization. So as Sara suggests it's worth contacting Liz.
I also emailed solicitor Dom and asked him to check this post, so perhaps he will comment in due course.
Natalia
Natalia10 days ago
Dieneke, Sara and Alon thank you so much - all very helpful points.
Sara
Die eke the Sunday Times or any Sunday is too late they are printed now the Standard is owned by Daily Mail Group,strongly suggest Liz as its a daily and she has already written about ABB see if she has a contact or Twitter account and I'm sure she will want the story as she knows the system good luck
Dieneke
Hi Sara, sounds good if she wants to do it. Otherwise there are the other options. But probably no one really will see this as extremely urgent so it might not come out immediately. Importantly is making noise and getting it resolved so that Natalia doesn't need to pay the chargeback which is totally wrong.
Alon
If there is no guarantee when a story will come out, creating noise in the media maybe effective in the long-run. -- Perhaps more immediate way to challenge the companies is via a solicitor. There will be costs, but a solicitor maybe able to predict which side will have to bear costs, especially if there are cases of precedence.
Sara
Only mentioned Standard because you don't want a London only paper as you need maximum publicity
Dieneke
Good point.
Sara
As you will be giving Liz a free story for which she will get paid its win win for her if a solicitor gets involved paper can't touch it yet so be sure you,choose the route you take
Natalia
something I forgot to point out - in all of this, since I have a pic of the guest passport image, can I report this London roaming fraudster to the police?
Alon
Natalia, I would say police should be first port of call in any case of fraud.... Come to think of it, not sure why HomeAway haven't involved police. Or have they? In short, if it's fraud, police priority rather than media.
Dieneke
When we had our chargeback case which involved a number of people we also contacted the police. There is a department involved in this. Didn't help much - their rolse seems to be much more that of comforting and also give the victim the feeling that they are not alone.
Sara
Yes of course I thought you did that it's a crime
Natalia
Have done this afternoon, at no avail. Apparently it's a civil matter (my end) and the fraud charge has to be pressed by Visa not myself.
Dieneke
Hello Natalia, I found the organisation to contact in the Police who will deal with this and passes it on as required. They are called Action Fraud. They are the UKs national reporting centre for fraud and internet crime. Their address is actionfraud dot police dot uk . You report the details to them first, and the passport details you have. They then pass it on to the relevant police department to investigate further. In my case they couldn't really do anything. But it is worth trying, particularly as you have the passport details - although that may be false as well. Also it makes you feel better that someone is helping you with it. Good luck
Natalia
Alon, HomeAway did absolutely nothing to help - zero. I now come to understand that they are nothing more than a sort of gumtree for your rental even if they want to compete with airbnb they're miles away.
Dieneke, seems like the fraud will get off scot-free then...
I'm so tempted to stop my DD with them, if it wan't for fear of something they might do to my credit score
Dieneke
Natalia, yes probably they do. We tried everything and lost thousands. I had to take out a loan in the end. But through making noise, and you could email tweet about it yourself you can put pressure on HomeAway and Yapstone for them to take on the loss and not you. Someone needs to contact Liz probably sooner rather than later to see what she says. If not you can try any of the other routes. Twitter is quite effective. We had a mistaken Thames Water bill which was for around £250,000. It happened on 1 April so I tweeted about it. It was resolved in no time. They actually had a Thames Water person dedicated to replying tweets from angry customers. The press also picks up stories from Twitter.
Sara
No Natalia they will be caught fraud is a crime with special police for cyber crimes I suggest you try to meet up with Liz she can direct you also that guy Dom on fake Britain
Natalia
Basically there is myself, HomeAway, Yapstone (the company collecting the payments) and Visa. There is even a 5th, called GoCardless, and they are the ones that will debit my account. A maze. Wherever I call, I get pointed to the other company - even the police, they told me it's Visa that is supposed the press the fraud charges, not me. I'm starting to get a headache. Until few days ago, I thought one of the biggest challenges of hosting was actually finding the right cleaner..
Natalia
Dieneke, have sent an email to Liz earlier this afternoon, hopefully she'll get back.
Dieneke
That is good to hear.
Sara
Remember if she is on weekly paper she won't be in the Telegrapgh till Monday do you want me to ask a friend of mine who works on Telegraph if he has seen her this week?
Natalia
Thanks Sara, I've contacted Liz through the online form on her website, hopefully she'll find it newsworthy.. Will keep you posted
Dieneke
Natalia. the way it works is that the fraudster contacts visa and says that the card is used fraudulently. As payment transactions are overseen by yapster they will notify yapster who then has to make a case that it isn't fraud. So they need to present proof of this. They then go to HomeWay who they have a contract with who then passes it on to you. That is incorrect as Homeaway through who. You did the booking should have the information. However they pass it on to you. In my case it concerned delivery of goods so I needed to have proof of delivery. In your case it should. E the booking confirmation from HomeWAy and if you have passport picture the better. I have details of who to contact in the police at the office, but I will see whether I can find a relevant email tomorrow. Poor you.
Dieneke
Natalia, just to add, but comparing your chargeback situation with ours. We use Paypal and Paypal had flagged a problem and stated that the payment was not protected, which is why we lost. Now Yapster should have a similar mechanism - as anyone - where they can see whether a payment is protected or not. If potentially fraudulent they should do further checks before proceeding with accepting the payment. Now they need proof of the fact that the person who is named on the credit card is the same person that stayed with you. So your passport evidence is perfect. This should go to Homeaway for them to pass on to Yapster. That should be enough evidence for them to know whether the person that used the credit card with a named person is the same as the person that stayed with you. In no account should they pass on payment to you. In first instance it might be Yapster who haven't followed the correct procedures. Or they alerted Homeaway who then failed to alert you. SO bottom line is Yapster is liable and you should battle it with them. As you are not the person in contact with Visa, but you have contact with Homeaway you take it up with Homeaway and they should not charge you. Bottom line they have to pay. Hope that clarifies it.
Dieneke
And don't panic. Just take it easy. These processes take a long time and if I remember correctly Yapster has 1 week to present evidence to Visa who will then go back to the fraudster - and then one can present further evidence.
Natalia
Dieneke - is it a good idea to stop the direct debit mandate with them or just pay up and hope for a refund after it has been investigated?
Dieneke
Natalia, I would stop the direct debit mandate. But not pay up. You should ask them the reason why they lay the blame with you. You also will have to make clear to them that until this has been resolved they should not charge you. In the end you are not responsible but it is they. You might ask questions like:
When the credit card was presented was there a fraud risk and was Homeaway be made aware of this?
What is the reason that they want you to pay.
The more you know the better, also for an article. You will have to expose their unethical behaviour. But it also may be the case that whoever dealt with this doesn't understand what it involves and panicked as well.
And ask anything else that is unclear for you.
Dieneke
May I ask but how much money is involved?
Natalia
£2K
Susan
Natalia, sorry you're having to deal with this. Very stressful for you. Have you tried doing a go ogle Reverse Image search on the guy's photo to see if it pops up anywhere else? If he's a serial con man, there's a chance you might be able to dig up some dirt on him that way. Best of luck with getting it sorted.
Dieneke
Natalia, that is a lot. Don't give in. Let Homeway and Yapster battle it out. How do they dare ask you for the money. That really would be a news story they surely don't want.
Dieneke
Are you on Twitter ?
Natalia
I do, albeit a dormant one..
Sara
Natalia we are all here to be supportive to you in any way and thanks for warning us about Homeaway sorry for your stress
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Maxine
Maxine9 days ago
Natalia. What Dienieke advises you is spot on. You did not handle the transaction, thereby there is no contract between you and the guest/fraudster. The contract lies with Homeaway. Their payment handlers should have had verifications in place- & if a risk was raised it was passed to Homeaway who did nothing & accepted the risk, not you. You weren't even aware of it.
It's between HomeAway and their payments handler both of whom should have insurance/processes in place to cover this sort of thing
Have a read of the terms of service between you and HomeAway - does it even mention fraud or charge back procedures?
Long & short of it they are trying it on by passing their loss to you. It's not your issue its there's.
Address all correspondence headed up Without Prejudice
And keep your questions consistent & factual- don't let them distract & obsficate matters and remain non-emotional
Stick to the point
1. You do not accept any liability in the matter
2. The matter & loss is a matter between HomeAway & their payments handler
3. You had no involvement in the transaction-
4. You contract is with HomeAway & is only concerned with provision of service to their client (the guest)
5. You provided the service to their client for which you have rightfully been paid & concludes the contract between you and HomeAway
6. It is their responsibility to seek payment from their client
7. You have a copy of their clients passport (if it's not a fake) which you can send them
Them asking you for copy of rental agreement etc is a nonsense- that's between them & their client & therefore already at gand to them, not you.
What they are trying to do is say they act as your agent. But as you have no access to 'their' client data or the transactions or agreement- they are not merely acting as agent but as the primary client
Hope this makes sense & best of luck with resolving it. Stay strong
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Natalia
Natalia9 days ago
Thank you Maxine for the in depth explanation. These are the parts about payments, from HomeAway T&Cs: (don't hink I'm allowed to post link. (3) ....owner further commits to manage communications enquiries and booking payments through HomeAway’s platform and tools. Use of external tools and payments not processed through HomeAway’s platform is strictly forbidden (4) Processing of the amounts paid by the Travellers, less HomeAway’s commission, is managed by HomeAway’s third party provider Yapstone International Limited...Owner acknowledges and accepts that HomeAway has no involvement in the payment process and shall have no responsibility with regards to the correct payment of the booking. Latest email from Yapstone: "We would like to draw your attention to paragraph 1.10 pertaining to chargebacks. Please note that you are fully liable for all chargeback amounts received by YapStone on your behalf and your account will be off set to reflect this transaction. In the event of failure on behalf of YapStone to recover these funds from your account we will forward your account to our collections department. " Paragraph 1.10 Chargebacks and Reversals. "Any Payment by a Guest is subject to a right of Chargeback if paid by credit or debit card and depending upon the Payment method may be subject to a Reversal, these rights exist between the Guest and their respective bank or credit card issuer. In the event of a Chargeback or Reversal of any Payment by a Guest, YapStone will automatically deduct such amount plus any fees associated with the Chargeback or Reversal from Your bank account. Thereafter, YapStone will use commercially reasonable efforts to investigate the validity of the Chargeback or Reversal on Your behalf. You agree to cooperate with YapStone and to provide any information that may be reasonably requested by YapStone in its investigation. You are liable for all Chargeback or Reversals of Payments processed on Your behalf by YapStone, including the Chargeback Fee listed the Fees Schedule." HomeAway obliges you to use their online payment and through further T&Cs from Yapstone, you have to take full responsibility for it. When you sign up with HomeAway, it's not immediately visible, that you are liable in the event of chargebacks. It just seems so wrong that they are able to provide a service where they handle your payments - don't give you any access to it - and at the same time have T&Cs that waves them for any responsibility.
Natalia
Natalia9 days ago
sorry for the big 'lump' of words above - paragraphs seem to have melted..
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Alon
Alon9 days ago
Natalia, the lumping is due to posting by 'REPLY' (as you did in 'Thank you Maxine...'.) The Reply prompt gives a faint 'write a reply' (as I'm doing now). -- For separation of paragraphs you rather need the other option as you just did in 'sorry...' The faint prompt for this option 'write a comment').
Dieneke
Dieneke9 days ago
Hello Natalia, Maxine' point by point reply is the way forward. With regards to the terms & conditions you describe, they cannot legally pass this on to you as the contract is between Yapstone & Homeaway. They cannot pass this onto you and both companies will be on very shaky ground. Neither of them i am sure will want this published.
Alon
Alon9 days ago
It seems like work for a solicitor. I can recommend my own who specializes in property. About 18 months ago he got me out of a bind with a Kitchen refurbishment company for prospective work £4-5k that I wanted to cancel within 14 day Cancellation period, but hadn't perused the trick & trap small-print. It took my solicitor less than 1/2 hour to peruse the contract, expose the flaw in the small-print, and draft a letter with counter-claim for unethical practise. We never heard from the company again.
Sara
Sara9 days ago
Natalia- after reading your terms and conditions I would agree totally with Alon you need an expert. Wow have we all read the T and CS in ABB?
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Dieneke
Dieneke9 days ago
I had a quick look at the T and Cs for Airbnb. The payment equivalent is Airbnb Payment Services. The contract is directly with the Host. However it doesn't mention chargeback, but does mention the Airbnb guarantee. It also is much more straightforward and detailed then the other one. There is also very clear information about checking credit cards and other means of payment before accepting. So they follow a procedure most likely that should exclude the situation where a chargeback is made by a credit card company. It shows you the huge difference between Homeaway and Airbnb. We should be grateful for that!
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Sara
Sara9 days ago
Thanks Dieneke
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Dom
Dom 9 days ago
Natalie, sorry to hear about your problem with HomeAway.
Fraudulent use of credit cards is usually use of stolenllost cards, cloned card, or fraudulent representations, such as stolen or fake documents, o obtain the account, if the latter, then the credit card company will take responsibility. As this would have been an online booking, it's more difficult to detect. Technically, Visa is the victim. I think you should persevere with the police as although you are not lie victim you are a witness as presumably you met the fraudsters when they stayed at your place. There are jurisdiction issues here also Do you know which country the fraudster made the transaction from. You state that HomeAway"s terms and conditions pass on the Chargeback to you. If this is so, I would not recommend instructing a solicitor as it could cost a great deal more than the £2K you have already sustained. Ultimately you would have to be prepared to pursue HomeAway in court arguing it's an unfair contract term. Again, there will be jurisdiction difficulties as the company is based is US. I think Alon and Sara"s suggestion of getting publicity is excellent as it will put pressure on HomeAway to back down and take the hit, it is not going to want a mass exodus of hosts to Airbnb. Are there HomeAway forum groups like this where you can discuss with other hosts as they will be concerned it may happen to them also.
Saying that it's unusual, as most fraudsters purchase goods to sell on quickly. It's more risky to book a holiday.
If you would like, I can send a letter to HomeAway raising your concerns and try to persuade not to implement the Chargeback. I will not charge you. I will be at my office Monday afternoon. Phone number (phone number hidden) if you would like to call.
Alon, you cannot email me as my email address is incorrect. There is a letter missing. I have tried to change and spoken to cs but remains same.
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Natalia
Natalia8 days ago
Thank you Dom, as you can gather, it's one of the usual stories of companies hiding behind the small print. Thank you for your offer to help
Zandra
Zandra9 days ago
Having been the victim of fraud and theft ...l can only say how sorry I am you're in this situation. I really hope you get a good resolution to this
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Dom
Dom 8 days ago
Natalie My number ________________.
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Maxine
Maxine8 days ago
Great advice Dom (and others) - BTW: Where did you buy that lovely sofa bed on wheels? I need one and it looks easy to move around by one person, as on wheels. Sorry off topic question, but as you said your email via profile is not working, I couldn't send private message. I had email problem with ABB when I changed provider, and they said they couldn't fix it - gave me a load of baloney about it being a dot com - I had my engineer look into it and he said the system was caching the previous IP address. Anyway, in the end they said set up a gmail account and use that. So that's what I had to do. But hey they are only a 25bn technology company .... bless them
Dom
Dom 8 days ago
Maxine I gave up trying to change it. I will probably miss something important one day but never mind. The sofa bed is from IKEA. It's very ease to move around and convert back and forth.
Maxine
Maxine7 days ago
Thanks Dom :-)