Post by High Priestess on Mar 10, 2016 0:00:37 GMT
I originally posted this on a board that is not visible to all members so I want to also post it here so others can read it.
This post is a good example of the hostile and holier than thou attitude which is unfortunately too common on the AIrbnb Volunteer Staffed HelpDesk, er, I mean, the CC.This is a good example of why I have stopped posting on the Community Center. I neither wish to engage in conversations that have someone like Robin participating, nor do I wish to confront someone like this, when I don't have the power to remove someone like that from the community group. If it were up to ANdrew and I, we would remove such a sanctimonious group member in a heartbeat. Someone like that has no business participating in a community group, perched high up on their self-righteous pedestal as they are, lecturing to all the sorry peons below their golden feet.
Helga, Louise, Deanna, Jessa, Shannon and Dave and Deb are hosts replying who have what I consider the true spirit of the Old Host Community and I'm glad they posted there.
community.airbnb.com/t5/General-Hosting/Condo-Board-Sent-me-a-notice-to-stop-hosting/td-p/41409
Alexander:
Condo Board Sent me a notice to stop hosting
I have to cancel my reservations starting in a week after recieving a notice from my condo board. What is the best way to do this? Does this count as an extenuating circumstance?
A real bummer, I was having a great time hosting and meeting people.
Thank you
Solved! Go to the Most Helpful post.
y
Robin
(aka "SanctiMommy" according to some ) ---
Robin
@alexander Sorry Alexander, this is definitely not an extenuating circumstance....in fact it is one we see on the CC on an almost daily basis.
Airbnb, specifically asks you if you have approval to host from Landlords, Condo managers and other principals and it is up to you to be truthfull. In fact they go as far as to say, If you do not own your own property you must have all relevant approvals prior to submitting a listing.
You will be hit with a cancellation fee for each confirmed booking that you cancel, and you will have an automated response put on your review window for each booking stating that you cancelled a guest booking, and that will put your superhost status out the window for at least the next year!! Although just yesterday I did read of another host who had exactly the same situation as you have and Airbnb did release him without an immediate fine but they stated they would take accrued fines from his future bookings if his account remained open!
It is up to you to do your homework Alexander, and it does annoy me that people will trash the effort that other quality hosts put into the Airbnb principal simply to make a quick buck on the side. You reflect on us all....potential guests don't trust Airbnb!!
It's probably a fair bet you didn't have any form of sharecover, or hosting insurance either, which would have meant that any liability issues would not have been addressed by the Condo's (or your) insurer as they have a habit of cancelling general insurance if they find out short term sub-letting is taking place. You not only put yourself at severe risk you put other Condo owners who do the right thing at risk!
This question comes up so often, and I dare say what we see here on this forum is possibly just the tip of the iceberg. I have said it before and I will say it again.....Airbnb must start to enforce some compliance standards with listings or we will all suffer.
No sympathy I am afraid Alexander....you are the sole architect of your current dillema.....cheers....Rob
Momi
Momi
Dear @alexander
I would like to add on this as I am in the legal field here in Hawaii. (adding to what robin so eloquently wrote)
It really troubles me as a homeowner and a LANDLORD when tenants break the lease rules /condo rules/ Airbnb rules.
Please make it your business and rental responsibility to understand what you are doing to the homeowner as well.
I have been accessed over $500 in fines for what my tenants have done. And of course, I now have to seek getting that monies back from my tenants who broke several rules of the condo association because as their landlord, (and homeowner), I am the one held accountable to my Homeowners Association for anything my tenants do.
It is incredibly irresponsble on your part to not have read the rules on both Airbnb AND the condo association which 99.9% of them have clearly stated in their CONDO association terms and conditions on what is allowed and what is not. It is also your landlords duty to give you a copy of that book. If you didn't receive it, I recommend that you ask for it in the future should you move to a new place.
Guess what else is not allowed at my rental place? Pets! And yet, my tenants decided to sneak one in and destroyed my entire carpet which was only 4 years old. Guess who doesn't live in my condo rental unit anymore. You could actually be evicted over this.
Also, I think it would be very kind and mature on your part to write a letter TO EACH BOOKED GUEST explaining that you are being required to cancel because you didn't follow the rules of the condo building association rules, so the Airbnb guests doesn't blame this on Airbnb which I have seen many times on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. At least take the responsbility to do that. Please.
with Aloha Spirit,
Momi
Robin
@momi Thank you Momi....well said....cheers.....Rob
Alexander
Greetings Momi and Robin-
I appreciate the time it took you to write a response to my inquiry, if not necessarily the somewhat off-topic content or snarky tone. Granted, I should have expected as much, seeing as this is, after all, an internet community, and a good dose of Holier-Than-Thou is par for the course.
I suppose I will elaborate on my situation a bit, for better or worse. I am renting the apartment from my friend, who is the owner. I never recieved any Condo Association rulebook or guidelines when I moved in. It was he who had the idea, and encouraged me, to post the apartment on Airbnb, as I am quite often not occupying it. Seeing as my legal landlord encouraged me to post the apartment on Airbnb, I did not inquire as to whether this was violating a general building policy that I was unaware of.
After recieving notice from the Condo Association that I was in violation of the rules, (I can rent on Airbnb for 30+ days, it seems, but not less) I have started cancelling my reservations. Since I am not an complete scumbag, and actually quite a decent person, I am sending an apology to each person, letting them know that their funds are available immediately to rebook on Airbnb, or can be 100% refunded online, and furthermore hoping that this experience does not reflect poorly on the good people of Airbnb or the city of Portland. FURTHERMORE (Momi, let me know if caps are necessary, or just somewhat condescending...), I am directing each guest to another similarly priced Airbnb booking in Portland and offering assistance with neighborhood choice if they are not familiar with the city. So far it is going well, and the guests are thankful for my help.
I understand that you two probably see this situation quite often, but am quite put off by the tone of your replies. I can't help but point out that, in case you are wondering why you see this situation repeatedly, Airbnb makes it extremely easy to list an apartment, with only a halfhearted, if any, attempt to bring up issues that may have legal ramifications to hosts. And why not? They are a large corporation and the more people that host, the more money they make, and the more exposure. I am now faced with $1000 in penalties for a situation that is a legal and ethical grey area, at best, for yours truly. I can host for 30+ days (will be checking the heretofore unknown to me Condo Rules just to make sure), but will be hit with these fines taken out of any future earnings. Is there an appeals process here, or just a community of hosts going "tsk-tsk" and shaking their heads?
Momi, I am sorry about damage to your condo caused by tenants, as well as PETS, but am confused as to the relevance, unless you intended your reply to be a general rant on people not following the rules.
With Aloha Spirit,
Alexander
Helga
Helga
Most Helpful
@alexander, you could try to talk airbnb into considering the cancellations as caused by the same event and error and that they should apply only one penalty to all of them, not one to every single one. You have understandable cause for your error and it would encourage you to continue hosting with the same account and on airbnb.
Call them and keep trying. Try to get a case manager or get higher up and plead your good will. That you tried to minimise damage to guests and airbnb image should help, insist on that.
When the airbnb founders started to lodge students on an airbed in their living room, they did not have permission to do that either. Their "illegal" idea is worth billions today.
Unfortunately, this forum is getting more hostile by the day. And I could not even say if the unsolicited attacks are worse or the unmotivated All-is-well-be-happy nonsense the same people post on other triggers. It's just pavlovian reflexes is action.
I'm very sorry that you got that straight off when asking for help.
Good luck for your negotiations!
Robin
@alexander @momi....Yes Alexander, I was hard on you....and I offer no apology for that.
It may well be that you are to some extent, a victim of circumstance, in that you may have been given the wrong advice by (your) landlord but, in reality Alexander, ignorance is no excuse! The first thing I would have done in your situation, knowing full well this property was encumbered by Condo regulations, was seek a letter of approval from the Condo committee to begin hosting. Alexander, that's not brain surgery!!
I made mention of liability issues, and I did that for good reason Alexander....What if one of your guests had discarded a cigarette butt into a dumpster between two Condos (or worse, two blocks of Condo's) setting each of them on fire! Who pays if the insurance has been cancelled due to a sub-letting agreement???
I will tell you why your situation annoys me......
I have a cottage in my rear garden, and when I decided I wanted to host, I invited a council inspector to pay me a visit. After studying the premises fully he gave me a certificate of occupancy which declared that the cottage was fit for habitation and complied with all aspects of the local building code. But that did not give me the right to list! I still had to apply for council approval and the inspector told me that would not be possible if I listed it as the self contained facility that it is. This area is classified as R1 residential, meaning, one residence per allotment.....no exceptions!! The only way I could get approval was to list as a 'private room', infering that it shares facilities with the main house and is regarded as part of it. This limits an enormous amount of my listing appeal because most guests would prefer a self contained accommodation rather than one where they may run into some stranger in the middle of the night on the way to the toilet!!
Alexander, I did my homework, I have involved the relevant authorities every step of the way in my short hosting career, I have got all relevant approvals and insurances......and I can sleep at night!
I am doing my best to bring out THE best in the Airbnb concept, and as I said in my previous post it annoys me beyond measure when other don't.
I don't like to see others go through unwarranted financial cost and I really do feel a touch of pain at what will happen in your situation,. but Alexander, don't shoot the messenger, we did not dreate this problem for you! We are here to offer advice and to help each other.....this is not a cosy old closed shop, it is a community forum site and we each have to give advice, not just to the person whose post we are addressing, but to the rest of the community.
Alexander, I wish you luck and hope that next time you embark on this sort of thing you will prepare yourself a little bit better. Remember, every day teaches us something.....cheers......Rob
Alexander
Helga, thank you very much! I will try to get in contact with Airbnb and see if they can reduce these fines. I have had an excellent experience hosting and have met some wonderful people!
A bientot!
Alexandre
Momi
HI @alexander you are very welcome. Thanks for appreciating robin too.
And, I was not offended by your choice to cap the words you did....(furthermore and pets). Just made it easier to read without
my glasses. Nor was I put off by your reply......even though one could probably guess your tone wasn't delightful either.
thanks for elaborating your situation. Wish you had done so from the get so (I can remind your legal landlord/friend /condo owner that they too need to read their association rules as well. Ignorance is not a viable excuse in any regard.
Great to hear you contacted each guest, but completely disagree with your opinion about Airbnb as their terms and conditions are very clear.....for those who take the time to read them.
If you have more time, you should read the post I wrote yesterday THANKING another host for calling me out publically on giving the wrong advice to another host because I had read part of her question scenario wrong....and I sincerely thanked that host because I don't have an issue learning, humbling and appreciating anyone who takes the time to call me out even if it did embarass me. That's how we all grow.
and to address your other comments you directed at me....all I can say is...."YEP!"
with Aloha Spirit,
Momi
Robin
@helga....Hi Helga, Rather disappointed with that post. If you have checked on mine, in 95% of posts they have been cheerie, helpful and informative. It is very rare for me to sound off in the way I did here, and as I have just said, I did it for good reason.
We each need to respect each others opinions, realise that we are not always going to be right but, there are times for froth and bubble and there are times when home truths need to be told.
I respect what you have to say Helga, you have offered much sound advice over a considerable amount of time and, as a rule, I enjoy reading your responses......just not on this occasion....cheers....Rob
Momi
well the Good news @helga is, I am raising our 12 year old daughter to be a responsbile educated individual who should always check the laws, rules and get sound advice on anything she might consider doing or getting invovled with. (what she does at school, dance studio, karate, animal shelter volunteer job, etc, which is probably why she was recognized for being the most respected, disciplined, Straight A student at her school 4 years in a row. (Only one student per grade receives this annual award, "Principal Award". Yes I am a proud mommy.
here's a great example of this...this past weekend, she wanted to bring her big floaty raft to a hotel pool that we were going to be hanging out at with our Airbnb guests who checked into a hotel after staying with us for 6 days and invited us to join them. We were looking foward to it because we liked them alot. She asked me if she could bring her new pool toy which I replied that I wasn't sure. She googled the hotel number, called them and asked the manager if she was allowed to bring her pool toy with her. She received an approval which provided hours of fun for her and the other kids who were there. As a good parent, its my job to make sure she understands that just because a friend told her it was ok, doesn't make it so. Right Robin ?
with Aloha Spirit,
Momi
Helga
Desr folks, I dropped into this thread by chance and it contained three posts:
Alexander looking for advice and clearly distraught- most people do not rent their own living space for fun or to have company and facing a huge fine is a shock if you are not rich.
Then followed two posts telling him how it was his fault, how he should have avoided that situation and how good humans others are.
Sorry to say, I hate seeing if a man down is kicked for good measure and reading how good people think they are is rather boring. Shame on you for indulging in such self elevation and denigrating of other's without even knowing the background.
This is an international forum and it's improbable that all your moral values and choices will apply. People looking for help usually ask " What can I do now?" They do not ask "What should I have done?" Nor "What choice do you think is the best moral choice?"
Just answer with ideas for the future. After having been hit on the head by the consequences of the past choice, they know already what they should have chosen if they were omniscient.
The moralising is just disgusting, if I wanted that, I'd join a church.
Maryam Al Fakheer
100 Thumbs UP for you @helga
Robin
@helga.....Ok.I give up, I will go and look after my little corner of the 'Cabbage patch'. I had this misguided notion that we were here to offer advice, be it good or bad for others to learn from, but obviously I am wrong!!!!....we are here to hand out sugar coated pills!!!!
God almighty, what is the point of having a forum site....lets all just pat each other on the back.....deary me.....
Helga:
Robin, offer advice, that will be appreciated. Reproaches are not advice. Selfprise is not advice.
No need to add sugar nor vinegar. Just take the situation in, analyse future possibilities and indicate what is helpful. You can trust that Alexandre had already imagined the horror scenarios.
I really don't understand you. If you want to speak about your happy life, create your own threads. I remember your opossum story and that was really funny reading.
Then there are always threads where people tell a more harmless experience and others chirp in with similar experiences and everyone has a nice chat.
But someone facing a 1000 bucks in fines and the end of a business opportunity does not need stories about how you prepared everything meticulously to comply with every potential regulation in your part of the world.
- Or the other story, not yours, of an inflatable raft in a hotel pool. What was that? Kafka under laughing gas?
You are always advising to treat guests very kindly, often to the point of self-sacrifice. I’m pleading to treat your fellow hosts kindly too.
@maryam Al Fakheer, thank you !
Deanna
This comment was shared before being removed by Lizzie:
Robin, FYI Mostpeople find you to be a Meddling busybody, they just don't say so on this forum. Your scolding tone and constant references to yourself are quite tiresome.
Deanna
I always enjoy hearing your responses Helga, as you have a measured tone and speak from great life experience. And you have no sense of self-aggrandizement, unlike some of the other hosts who seem to get a real boost to their fragile egos by their constant pedantic and boring responses.
Helga
@deanna, so nice to see you again. We have to uphold our honor here, that we try to help before judging !
From an European point of view those Condo regulations seem very strange. We have regulations too between co-owners in residencies, but they are good will agreements not higher than civil law and religious commendments combined.
Jeet
Wow! Here's some soothing music. Hope it calms everyone down a bit
Also, at this point, I think it'd be nice if all of us take a quick CC Guidelines refresher
Here are some relevant to this thread.
1) Respect each other: New members and regular contributors, whether they’re Hosts, Guests, or Airbnb staff, all have the right to post their own views and ask questions, regardless of their level of knowledge. Different experiences and backgrounds are a huge strength of our online community! Let’s respect this and each other.
2) Say thank you: Many community members help others out and post amazing and useful content for everybody to see. Remember to say thank you by replying to their posts and clicking the Thumbs Up button below each helpful post. Liking a post can also mean that you agree with the point in the message, or that you have found it funny or useful. However, don’t manipulate the Thumbs Up function by actively trying to get others to give Thumbs Up to your own posts.
3) Stay on topic and avoid pointless posts: Avoid posting off topic replies that don’t offer value or contribute to the discussion. If you want to discuss something unrelated, start a new thread. Community Team staff may move replies/threads somewhere more appropriate if they start to head off topic. If you want to discuss something that doesn’t fit in any other category, or is not related to Airbnb, post it in our off-topic boards: The Living Room (Hosts) or The Cafe (Guests).
4) Encourage Best Answers: Ask or encourage members to accept one of the replies they received to a question as the accepted solution.
5) Don't threaten, personally attack others, or post hate speech: Safety is Airbnb’s first priority. Don’t threaten anyone - we will delete your content and we reserve the right to escalate to law enforcement. While it’s ok for you to speak broadly on people, companies, and issues in the public eye, we will act on any abusive behavior directed at private individuals when it comes to our attention. Similarly, you may challenge institutions, events, beliefs, ideas, and practices, but we strictly forbid attacks on people based on race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex, gender, sexual orientation, disability, medical condition, or other protected characteristics.
Happy hosting and keep helping
Jeet
Helga:
@jeet, what is this for? Please explain how any of the posts was in infraction of any of these guidelines.
I hate soothing music, but that's maybe a personal characteristic.
Jeet
Hello @helga,
Yup, it's a personal characteristic and that's fine, we all are diverse people and that's what makes this community so amazing
Unfortunately, if you fail to identify posts that violate the guidelines, you might be failing to understand the guidelines itself. I cannot think of any way to explain further.
Maybe someone else from the community can take a shot at helping you out.
Also, just to clarify, the Guidelines Refresher post is for everyone and not targetted specifically at you in case you thought that way
Helga
img src="https://a0.muscache.com/im/users/1122470/profile_pic/1371471019/original.jpg?aki_policy=profile_x_medium"]
@jeet, I was one of the launchpad hosts and my level 10 comes from a lot of hard work in testing the community center and giving feedback on its functions. I have no problem understanding guidelines per se, I fail to see why you feel the need to post your soothing music post like an ultimate crush on a discussion under adults which was not especially turbulent.
In the original specifications of the setup of the community center it was the aim that this forum should do all that the old forums did but better.
In the old forums, we helped and still help each other, motivate each other and laugh together. In this thread, at the beginning there was no intention of help nor motivation and no laughter.
I don't see how soothing everyone or giving moralising feedback could help anyone and it makes me wish to cry. My motivation in life is finding solutions to tricky questions, help people and laugh.
If you need harmony and soothing so much that it becomes an aim in itself, that's fine for you, but please let other people have differing opinions and let them express them.
If however you wish to insinuate that my mental capacities are not up to understand your level of reasoning, rest assured that that is not the case ;-) If you wish to insult me, be welcome to try but try harder to make it stick.
Jeet
@helga, it's actually funny that you think that my post was about soothing music, especially when 99% of it was about Community Guidelines.
Didn't mean to insult you, but if you still haven't understood the purpose of my post then, anyways, I'm off this thread.
Have a nice day
If a host has helped you today in the Community Center, feel free to thank them, give them a thumbs up and/or select "Mark as Most Helpful" to the left of the thumbs up.
Helga
@jeet, your post was not about soothing music, you used the guidelines and a remark about soothing music to end the discussion. As you were not involved in it and have not delivered a single argument so far, this was inapprobriate - not by definition of any forum guidelines but by the rules of civilised behaviour.
Have a nice day too.
Jessa
(this is JEssa's post prior to being edited/censored by Lizzie)
Robin your posts, and airbnbs grande roll out of a 'community center' neither managed by airbnb nor by hosts is the reason why the majority of hosts helping each other out on the old forums have no interest in this 'community'. You're mighty high in your ivory tower to be scolding someone with approval from his landlord to rent out a condo. I'm guessing it is due to the inflation in listings in the recent months not matching increase in demand that so many hosts find themselves with time on their hands to lecture and scold people for being in legally grey areas. Airbnb is in legally grey waters for that matter, across the globe, from Amsterdam to Cape Town to New York, hosts are fighting legislation. If it weren't for what you call ignorance, you'd have no airbnb listing. Hosts across the globe ignoring legal frameworks is the only reason why airbnb exists so please get off your high horse. As for the 'fines' - airbnb can't fine anyone who stops hosting, they're not the law, handing out fines is a distasteful move imo. @alexander I hope you can, together with your landlord, talk to the condo board and try to sway them into thinking airbnb is nothing to be afraid of, just like some of the commentators here have done amazing work swaying local legislators into thinking airbnb is nothing to be afraid of.
Lizzie's edited version of Jessa's comment:
Lizzie
Hello everyone,
I am just going to step in to this discussion.
I think we need to take a step back from this conversation and consider what is being posted. We welcome different opinions here and they don't always have to be positive, but I hope they will be constructive, and personal attacks on other members of the CC will not be tolerated (and is against the CC Guidelines). Most of the comments are not a response to the question at heart and simply not necessary and certainly not enjoyable to read.
For this reason, I have removed some of the comments here.
Alexander, I do hope you get this sorted.
Thanks, Lizzie
Louise
Actually Robin, the information given to you by your local council inspector is most likely wrong. Sadly, a not unusual occurence of late as councils all over the country are struggling to get their heads around the Airbnb concept.
Your local council is the District Council of Mount Barker, yes? Check the LEP and the prescribed and proscribed (if relevant) usages for residential zoning.
Firstly, regardless of where you reside in Australia, how you choose to describe your place on Airbnb is irrelevant under both state and local zoning laws and regulations. If it's on the same title as your house, the fact that it's physically attached, or not, to that part of the dwelling in which you reside is irrelevant. To take the inspector's reasoning to its logical and absurd conclusion, if you were to build an enclosed path between your backdoor and the granny flat entrance it would allegedly become compliant.
The inspector is likely to be confusing two issues - (A) the separate rental of two discrete properties on the one title with (B) your current proposed activity - the listing of the granny flat on Airbnb while you continue to reside on the property. The former (A) may or may not be permitted - depending on the DA and permitted usage applying to your granny flat. The latter (B), as you are currently residing on that title, is generally a permissible usage.
BTW, I find the tone of your posts often inappropriate. The information you dole out is frequently inaccurate and your 'advice' rarely helpful or supportive. The overarching impression is of someone whose primary succour is schadenfreude. Perhaps you're not even aware of it, but to many of us it would appear that you derive a great deal of pleasure in the suffering of others and seem to go to extraordinary lengths to boast of your own 'achievements' whilst belittling others. Is this really necessary? If you need to do this for your own well-being, perhaps you can find a less hurtful and hateful outlet?
JEssa:
the edits made by a London based consultancy firm that has nothing to do with airbnb - were me tagging Robin and calmly explaining that Robin's tone is the reason I rarely visit this 'community'. Good night <3
Maryam Al Fakheer
I am SHOCKED to see how lizzie deleted words and complete sentences out of the post of jessa!!!! This has nothing much to do with the guidelines anymore. No freedom of "speach" or opinion anymore here ?
Helga
jessa, louise, thank you.
I don't even know how I picked that fight but for the reason Louise mentioned, the general feeling of Schadenfreude instead of a wish to help. And the original poster certainly needed help.
lizzie you may well censor out the names, but people get the mails in full lenght.
Dave & Deb
I know this has nothing to do with the topic but, I would just like to say, I am so glad to see 3 of my favourite people over here.
Welcome @helga, jessa and louise!
Now you can return to the regularly scheduled broadcast!
Dave
If a host has helped you today in the Community Center, feel free to thank them, give them a thumbs up and/or select "Mark as Most Helpful" to the left of the thumbs up.
Louise
And Lizzie, I know your intial reaction may be to edit or even delete my post. But please, give pause before you do this. I believe, as clearly do many others, that my comments are warranted and they highlight what is becoming an increasing and worrying issue with this forum.
For whatever reason, the new style forum is creating an environment which is far removed from the supportive, engaged and collaborative style of the old Groups. I'd hope that Airbnb will take a step back and consider why this is so and more importantly, what needs to be done to address the destruction of the true sense of 'community' that existed prior to this 'improvement'.
Helga
@maryam Al Fakheer this forum was set up to have censorship and unfortunately it is not censored by qualified airbnb employees. The censorship was my first concern and it was absolutely clear from the beginning that a censored forum would not allow free speech and thereby only result in a a small circle of people who have no other wish as to confirm themselves, to raise a cult and praise the cult"s ideas.
The problem is only that this forum had the purpose in it's existance to vaunt airbnb's image and to increase the hosting capacities of airbnb's hosts and thereby to increase the image even more. And the money. I'm perfectly fine with that purpose.
As I see it, airbnb pays here to damage it's image and to have some less qualified hosts raise a cult and influence help seeking new hosts.
As said to @jonny before, I usually help a lot of hosts on other forums every day and many people estimate my advice. I will not continue giving that advice for free when my words are censored.
Helga
dave & Deb, thank you. I admired your stamina the last days, you and Clare hold up this forum as well as you can. Your guidebooks are great work.
I have been feeling more and more unwell in this environment, I dropped in yesterday to give it another try but it's an oppressive admosphere.
Maryam Al Fakheer
CENSORSHIP ? I can't believe this. This is not normal anymore. It seems that I have more freedom of speach or opinion here in Islamic JORDAN than in AIRBNB ! I know this practice of censorship from WWII !!! But NOT in modern world anno 2016 !
Ernie
Level 8
San Francisco, CA
"We believe in free speech, transparency, and clear communication."
Maxine:
Robin @helga Alexander -
Robin, I've followed some of your posts and sometimes I agree with your researched based assertions. However, as a fellow friendly host I feel you are coming across in this instance as more than a wee bit sanctimonious.
Helga was spot on, on point.
Alexander, got it wrong with the Condo - he trusted in a mate - something we have all done I'm sure. When he was advised of the rental issue by the condo - he went out of hs way to assist in the re-housing of his guests with a local, fellow ABB host.
Many others would not have done that. It was an honourable thing to do.
So in this instance Robin, give him some credit, and climb down off of that high horse before you fall and cause yourself an injury.
With best regards, M
Shannon
@maryam Al Fakheer, Censorship we have more on this page then the Groups. That is why I do not support this platform with my time. the more you all support this platform, visa vie, writing here the more censorship we will all swallow and the faster they will take down our Groups. I am only here now, at the prodding of Helga because of a disagreement. Come back to the A and S Group Maryam and say a curse word, or something that comes to mind, Freely. Rock on my sista, keep speaking the truth, but stop waisting your efforts here.
Shannon
Is this the Queen's Royal WE?
Shannon
maxine, Here, Here!!!
Shannon
@helga will you ever learn? LMAO. I cannot believe you snared me into this trap of muck and myer.
I feel as if I am getting motion sickness.
Shannon
@helga, You are spot on again. I have not found my way to the orgional condo thread because it is difficult to navigate this page as things are in horrid order. It is strange in America that the Condo and Home Owners Regulations over ride civil law. Why? It is called a wavier of Civil Rights, when you sign up and pay the board you trade a right for a license. A right cannot be taken away, but can be signed away and one can be dumb enough to pay for it, go figure, us FREEDOM loving Americans, sign away our freedoms, FREELY, but not free, every single day. It is sad really. I live in a city where there is NO HOA and NO Board. I have a fee simple estate. I can challange civil law, sure I probably won't win, but if my research is good and I don't hire an attorney, I might not lose to bad. John Locke would be spinning in a grave if such a thing were possible. What is funny is the rich people are the ones who can afford to pay to have their rights taken away, under the guise of, it is your neighbors rights that MAY be taken away if he does not obey any of the initial rules , or any following rules made up by a board of OCD nut jobs. I am not an attorney and this not legal advice.
Dave & Deb
@shannon, You are always a hoot! I think it is time for me to return to A & S. No lizzie, A&S may look like a swear but it is not so please do not censor me!
Look what you started @alexander!
Dave
If a host has helped you today in the Community Center, feel free to thank them, give them a thumbs up and/or select "Mark as Most Helpful" to the left of the thumbs up.
Shannon
Robin Actually, the first thing that should be done is to get out the condo regulations origionally agreed to and signed. Then to get a hold of any revisions to the orgional agreement and discover who and how many votes it took to amend. Then if you cannot find a loop hole there, Go to the individuals who revised or created said ammendments and ask for clarity. It is not a federal case, but every written and argued legal word goes back to the intent of the persons who authored the words and their ligitmacy at the time. This is not legal advice and I am not a lawyer. Just sayin. I am a paralegal and worked at a lawfirm for many years. Consult an attorney for the facts, after reading your documents.
Maxine
@shannon toot, toot, sister
Shannon
@alexander, Wait, what? Airbnb assessed the fine? Now I am lost. This thread is hard to follow as I cannot find your entire story. However, it did my heart good to see you have sorted it. It is like Helga said, you must keep calling and calling until you get a person at airbnb willing to take up your cause. So I take it you are still in business and not fined a grand? a freaking Grand? Holy Canolies.
Alexander:
Hello everybody(!)
I certainly didn't intend on instigating such a contentious debate, but I do have to say that I appreciate the responses, as some of them have been quite helpful, and even heartwarming. All the rest has been eye-opening and an interesting insight into Airbnb, as well as online user communities as a whole.
I am in the midst of talking to each guest that I have had to cancel, and the community in general (I hope) will be happy to hear that every guest, with no exception, has understood the situation and thanked me for the personal messages, while displaying no ill will towards Airbnb. I have spent much of the day helping guests rebook with other Airbnb hosts, which has involved running searches for their particular dates, recommending a few listings by name, and answering questions about the new listing locations and other changes. So far, so good.
@shannon Airbnb asses a $50 penalty for each cancellation, which means that as it stands now I have over $1000 of penalties, which will be deducted from any future earnings. I am at the moment waiting for my final guest (who is arriving 7 hours after the check-in time), to show her the apartment and make her feel at home, as I do with every guest. I expect to recieve no money for this 4 day reservation, and if the penalties stand will make almost no money in the future for a whole month's rental. I am in the process of appealing to Airbnb in hopes that they see my situation as somewhat extraordinary and reduce the hefty sum of penalties. We will see how that turns out.
dave & Deb Ha! Looks like I stuck my hand into a beehive! (Some of the responses have stung a bit)
Alexander
@helga Thank you so much for your helpful answers, as well as candid messages on the other topics. I enjoyed reading all of your replies, and your realistic approach to problems is a nice breath of fresh air.
Alexander
maxine Thank you! after the first two responses I wondered if I was living in an alternate universe where nobody makes any decision without reading every bit of fine print they can get their hands on. (In that universe, nobody would ever even make it to using iTunes, Adobe, etc...)
As a general rule, I follow the regulations as they are presented to me. In this situation, when my friend (and more importantly, legal landlord) encouraged me to list the apartment on Airbnb, I felt no responsibilty to dive into the Condo Association rules. I didn't even know there were Condo Association rules governing the apartment building!
@momi As entertaining, in a weird way, your short story was about the straight-A student, karate practicing daughter who googled a pool number to confirm that she could bring a floaty toy, I am at a loss to understand the relevance, again. Now, if her friend, who was the MANAGER at the pool, said "come to the pool I LEGALLY MANAGE, and be sure to bring your floaty toy", would you seriously have her call the pool and ask for the artciles of incorporation, book of regulations governing pool use, and relevant state, county and town statutes regarding floaty toy use in swimming pools? Because that is essentially what you are expecting me to do. That would be ridiculous, and for future reference those answers are unhelpful on a community forum.
Maryam Al Fakheer
dave & Deb @shannon maxine
Can somebody tell me what is the A and S group, please?
Olivier:
Maryam Al Fakheer,
It's the Anecdote & Storie old group (https://www.airbnb.fr/groups/429). Helga is one of the most important contributor, posting many many funny stories and anecdotes about being a host.
Olivier François
Maryam Al Fakheer
Thank you olivier François Is this group still active? Somehow I can not use the link you sent me.
Olivier François
@maryam Al Fakheer,
Try making a copy/paste of the link on your computer. If it doesn't work perhaps it's just still open to members (it is supposed to be closed, like all the other old groups after 29/04). And yes it's still active...and funnier than this one.
Maxine
@maryam Al Fakheer - hi, A & S = Anecdotes & Stories
See you in there :-)
Helga
@alexander, olivier François, maxine, @maryam Al Fakheer, @shannon,
Hi everyone,
thank you everyone who decided to come onto this thread – Alexander you got probably a surprise opening your mailbox and seeing the flood. I'll try to keep it to one message - to keep it short would be harder to me;-)
I'm impressed by your way of handling the crisis. You are certainly a very good host on whom guests can depend on in all circonstances. From a commercial point of view, it is more interesting to have reliable partners who can resolve even a dire crisis on their own leaving good impressions on the clients and not involving customer service for ridiculous questions.
In my estimation, it is in Airbnb's best interest to keep you hosting and not scare you off for good. Even if you loose the fight at hand with the condo board, you may find another place in three days, next year or in a few years, where you could exerce your skills and make money for yourself and Airbnb. Or make it for another intermediary...
In that sense, I proposed to negotiate a deal with Airbnb to waive part of the consequences to keep you as a convinced image ambassador for Airbnb, a future guest and a future host as well.
There is nothing immoral in such a proposition, it's a commercial deal which is frequently concluded between airbnb and hosts, between business partners, even between companies and the tax authorities of different countries.
From a psychological point of view, it's very hard to give money back but it is easier to waive future money, the more so if it's improbable to recover it. In that sense, you will have to be a very sharp negotiator to get the payment for your not yet paid hosting. Even if it hurts to lose money for which you worked, I would concentrate to keep the fines limited to that amount or better that amount less the charges you really had to host those guests. But in compensation, I hope you get the automatic posts about cancellation waived as this would make your account unusuable and would keep you from making any money under this name for yourself and for airbnb.…
Shannon, you opened my eyes concerning those condo regulations, which I never understood. Effectively, co-owners hand over some rights by designing a management, but in Europe, as Nathalie pointed out, you can't do that to an extent where it limits your civil rights or human rights. European lawmakers believe n protecting people from their own stupidity, Americans and Australians believe in applying natural selection. (Even if they are creationists).
As Olivier pointed out, there have been airbnb forums for several years, some dedicated to helping new hosts, worldwide or locally, others to different topics and there is the Anecdotes ans Stories forum, which is a stranger one than others. It was abandoned by its moderator a long time ago, so different hosts moderated it based on social pressure to good behaviour, but without any power to delete posts or throw out contradictory opinions. As it starts with A, it's the first in the list still presented in the app and every newbie who starts hosting with a phone, a place and not much else drops in there and asks questions. We post stories there and we answer the questions.
I was born and raised in a house full of guests, I worked for international companies in many countries and domains and we started renting our apartments 13 years ago when they were empty during our travels. That is a good way to finance a nomadic life style and for my peace of mind I found out only years later that it was in infraction of local laws – one of the sideeffects of moving from country to country : you have to learn the language first and pretty well, to be able to read cryptic rules which you never imagined that they even exist.;-)
The old groups have been declared dead twice so far as you can check in the announcements section of the community center. We got a delay of two months in the very last hours before execution this time. The new execution is planned for end of April. Evidently not everyone of the old guard likes it here, so there are many other forums now, none of them censored.
You find the old forums on the app or by going to your airbnb account on a computer. Then click on the address bar and delete everything that comes behind the dot com or dot local extension but leave the slash /. Then add groups/429 – 429 being the group number of the story forum. Or number 41, that's the New Host forum, with a more professionally helpful approach. NHF is there to help and sometimes laugh, S&A is there to laugh and then learn from it.
Robin, I'm sorry about what happened this time to you. Not that I caused it to happen but that the circonstances were set tot make it happen, inevitably. That it fell on you and Momi was just bad luck.
I believe you are rather a nice guy, a bit lonely and you found a forum here, in the sense of a public place where you can speak out and others will listen. Unfortunately, the more reasonable voices of the community left, first one by one and then in thrombes. You started to speak louder and louder and you found followers. Group dynamics kicked in, the censor helping and this board became a place where it's very easy to start snearing and get applause for it, where it's very easy to post a craintive post and be congratulated for fears and where posts can turn very paranoid and in my opinion creating a huge damage to the image of airbnb.
That was never the intent in creating a board nor a help desk.
In A&S we have also had a lot of new hosts who started posting with fearful questions. We answer reasonably, we motivate them, we find solutions for them, we make them laugh. We consider them, in Shannon's words, our fledglings. And we are very very proud and happy when they return as majestic swans and eagles and start helping others in their turn and tell us stories in their turn.
Robin, you had a long life, from what I gathered, it was full and you live in such an interesting part of the world. You love telling stories, in that sense we should understand each other. You would have much more success, if you just tell the stories and leave the conclusions to the readers. Tell what you did, for what rational reasons you did it and what was the outcome. It will have much more impact without the moral guidelines and people will praise you for it all by themselves.
Lizzie, you cannot carry water in a fist. I’ll post a statement on a non-public board later.
Besides, I found another bug: you can only hail the last five posters, then the function goes random. It was my intent to address everyone as in my experience it is more productive to address people personally and in clear words. That cannot be done here.
Lizzie
Hello everyone,
I wanted to come back to the points raised here about removal of text. This is something I don't take lightly and I don't like doing, but as I mentioned in my last post, personal attacks towards an individual are not permitted in the Community Center and if a response of this nature is posted then I have to remove it.
It is likely that you will not always agree with the way or tone someone has responded to you or another member here in the CC, but I believe it is the way we respond which is the important part. If you are unhappy with something, consider if your response will improve the mood and remember you can flag it to me and I can take a look.
-----
Helga, it is good to read you last post here; providing advice and possible options to Alexander. Thanks also for highlighting the name tagging function here, it does drive me crazy, but it is being looked in to - it is just a little trickier than it looks!
Thanks,
Lizzie
Maryam:
Lizzie I understand what you saying, but... I find your way of censoring selective. Some can post nasty unhelpful arrogant texts, and that is fine with you, but as soon someone comment on that, it get consored.....?
Jeet:
Greetings!
I'm not sure whether attacking an employee of the company under the pretext of "Free Speech" is ignorance about the fact that freedom comes with responsibilities OR is one of the the worst forms of Cyber-bullying existing today. I think it's the latter.
Abusing a person with a perspective different than yours on a public forum and gathering a support crowd from external groups is not Free Speech but bullying with the sole intension of breaking down the target. And if you are going to oppose this post too then you are most welcome but please be non-abusive, respectful and constructive in your expressions. Else, we definitely need a lesson here on valuing diversity of thoughts especially in a space that is created for the intention of learning from differences and varied experiences, bitter or sweet.
1) The refresher on CC guidelines wasn't irrelevant afterall.
2) Don't let a bunch of Hosts shut you up in a community made up of more than 3.5 lakh hosts and millions of travellers.
3) Let's actively flag inappropriate content and make CC a clean and safe forum, here's a How-to Guide on Reporting Inappropriate Content.
Good day
Jeet
If a host has helped you today in the Community Center, feel free to thank them, give them a thumbs up and/or select "Mark as Most Helpful" to the left of the thumbs up.
Helga
Jeet, I ignored you mostly and for good reason.
Lizzie is not an employee of airbnb.
I did not gather a crowd. I told Shannon in a private mail, as a joke, that I'm engaged in a discussion here, as Shannon is coming to Europe to meet a few hosts from a few European countries. That is an example of the relationships we formed on the other groups. I lured her to Europe to meet a dozen friends found on an airbnb forum ;-))
The funny thing is, a good part of the people who intervened after your posting of the houserules of this forum so Helpfully, have clashed with me over a topic or other, maybe several times. Several of us know of each other well, we know that we have different or even very different approaches to hosting. I'd say that these clashes and discussions have led to mutual respect and learning from each other. Evidently, that result is much easier obtained, if there is a minimum level of understanding and the desire to speak, not shut discussions down by hitting the other over the head with a rulebook.
I was surprised to receive such support but I don't attribute it to me personally. People came in to make their own concerns known. This
thread brought to light a growing feeling of unease about censorship in a modern society, about the way fellow help seeking hosts should be treated, about the conception of this forum culminiating in rules that all but forbid discussions and different opinions and exclude even the idea of several diverging solutions that could all be the right solution for someone.
The discussion brought it into the light, it's up to airbnb to decide what kind of forum will be the most profitable in the long run. Free help by engaged hosts who have great fun together, coach each other, console each other and make friends or else decouraging everyone with a problem by throwing rulebooks around. A chance for the company, to have both solutions active side by side for 5 months now, so they can make a really profond study of it.
Actually, I'm smiling reading your first paragraph that is visible whilst I write my answer: if you are not sure what it is, what you read and to what you make a statement, why do you make statements?
Analysing your words it's quite clear that you are very emotive, maybe exclusively emotive, and I'm on the opposite end of the human spectrum. The very idea of bitter or sweet experiences is very funny to me, there is no chance that we ever talk to each other and profit from it. But have no fear, I'll not post on new threads of this center anymore.
Maxine:
Wow - who knew one hosts request for help could end in such a dust up, censorship row & experienced hosts exiting the CC .
Robin.
Helga is well regarded for her balanced views & good sense advice put across in a way others can act upon without getting offended or feeling 'told off'.
Reading your story regarding the personal incidences that led to your approach to rule book advice explains a lot.
But you just need to find a more balanced way of presenting your views & advice. If you just thump people on the head or rap their knuckles with a heavy rule book - you'll get the reactions you have seen in this discussion
Helga did not court support at all. Another host posted a note in a Group saying has anyone seen the row going on ....... but only a couple of people popped in to take a peek - everybody else was already involved. There was no whipping up of a crowd, it formed organically & divided opinions. It also brought to a head the growing disquiet over ABB arbitrary censorship. And that became the bigger issue.
So whilst you might feel a bit bruised, remember you did wade in waving the rule book, that kicked it all off. So perhaps take a rest & think about how you can share your views & experience without whacking people with a big stick for misdemeanours.
Best regards, Maxine
Helga
Robin, I did not answer immediately to your post as I wanted to think it over. You decided to share such a painful personal experience and gave us insights into your personal feelings and that deserved a calm answer. Besides, I had a very nice guest and we spent a few hours together every day, having dinner and even redecorating the guest room together. An Airbnb experience at its best, one of those that you yourself cherish in hosting too. Less time to hang out in a forum for a few days.
I thank you for telling the story of your friends. That makes it understandable that you wish to verify that the i’s are dotted and the t’s crossed. For me it illustrates however that there is no guarantee that a layman reading all the rules before creating a business can exclude that a catastrophe may happen. Your friends, having good business sense and the sense of hard work, were certainly not careless. Perhaps they even read all the papers they signed. Perhaps it was a single word or sentence that was a trap. I have seen that too, in international companies and huge deals. But less rule trusting people expect deception and have insurance and failsafes against even that. I don’t see Alexander's experience so different from the story you told: he trusted he had all the rules covered.
I have seen that a few times, that good people dig their own graves, but never to the extent of your friends’ tragic outcome.
You conclude that the rules will safe you if you know them all and apply them all. My approach is that you will never be able to know all the rules and there will always be someone who finds a way to get a better interpretation against you. Therefore I do not judge how people arrived where they are, I see a situation, I guess or they tell me what they want and I find a way or two to make that happen as far as it can be made possible.
Sometimes I counsel strategies I would not follow to the end, as that end is not that important to me as to the poster and I’m less courageous than some. Sometimes I counsel strategies that I would do and find easy and others tell me « Helga, you dream, I could never do that. » Ok, I have to scratch my head some more ;-)
And often, in a forum, I’m one of the first to pick up a problem but I’m not the one finding the final workable solution for the poster. Everyone contributes and I learn from it as much as everyone else. With the advantage of an excellent memory, I seem so very much wiser the next time ;-)
It was very interesting to read that the community center structure and the unpredictable application of rules do not benefit you either. I saw the last row, when you left for a while. An ironie of the sort, then you crashed into a lawyer who has a lawyer’s approach to rules too. You did not discuss rules then but that it got so hot so fast was also due to opposite perceptions of procedure.
I can understand that forum writing is addictive, it is too me as well. I discovered the Anecdotes forum with a funny cry for help and was on the hook ;-)
I wanted to tell you not to give up forum writing. It takes all kinds to make a world and you are so dedicated and love writing, it would be a pity if you did not continue.
However I would suggest for your own personal satisfaction that you find a forum where you can express yourself to full extent without being one day censored for this the other for that and the third day sent to start new topics for new thoughts.
In a peer moderated forum, people find their tone, if you are too long, people tell you « I did not read to the end but the start was good » and you cut the next post shorter, if you are mean, people tell you so to your face and if you are nice or hilarious, people tell you so too. Wouldn’t you prefer that after all, to tell a funny story even if it was nothing important, just a funny exchange with a guest or a nice little experience, and to trigger laughter, other comments, a serious question treated in between and everyone has a good time?
I would chat with you anytime everywhere else - as said above a little clash now and then can create respect if people can face each other and clear the air.
It will not be here as I decided not to participate in new threads anymore in the present set-up.
maxine, thank you, but even if the church just restructures the procedure, you still have to wait that I'm dead to declare me a saint ;-)))
This post is a good example of the hostile and holier than thou attitude which is unfortunately too common on the AIrbnb Volunteer Staffed HelpDesk, er, I mean, the CC.This is a good example of why I have stopped posting on the Community Center. I neither wish to engage in conversations that have someone like Robin participating, nor do I wish to confront someone like this, when I don't have the power to remove someone like that from the community group. If it were up to ANdrew and I, we would remove such a sanctimonious group member in a heartbeat. Someone like that has no business participating in a community group, perched high up on their self-righteous pedestal as they are, lecturing to all the sorry peons below their golden feet.
Helga, Louise, Deanna, Jessa, Shannon and Dave and Deb are hosts replying who have what I consider the true spirit of the Old Host Community and I'm glad they posted there.
community.airbnb.com/t5/General-Hosting/Condo-Board-Sent-me-a-notice-to-stop-hosting/td-p/41409
Alexander:
Condo Board Sent me a notice to stop hosting
I have to cancel my reservations starting in a week after recieving a notice from my condo board. What is the best way to do this? Does this count as an extenuating circumstance?
A real bummer, I was having a great time hosting and meeting people.
Thank you
Solved! Go to the Most Helpful post.
y
Robin
(aka "SanctiMommy" according to some ) ---
Robin
@alexander Sorry Alexander, this is definitely not an extenuating circumstance....in fact it is one we see on the CC on an almost daily basis.
Airbnb, specifically asks you if you have approval to host from Landlords, Condo managers and other principals and it is up to you to be truthfull. In fact they go as far as to say, If you do not own your own property you must have all relevant approvals prior to submitting a listing.
You will be hit with a cancellation fee for each confirmed booking that you cancel, and you will have an automated response put on your review window for each booking stating that you cancelled a guest booking, and that will put your superhost status out the window for at least the next year!! Although just yesterday I did read of another host who had exactly the same situation as you have and Airbnb did release him without an immediate fine but they stated they would take accrued fines from his future bookings if his account remained open!
It is up to you to do your homework Alexander, and it does annoy me that people will trash the effort that other quality hosts put into the Airbnb principal simply to make a quick buck on the side. You reflect on us all....potential guests don't trust Airbnb!!
It's probably a fair bet you didn't have any form of sharecover, or hosting insurance either, which would have meant that any liability issues would not have been addressed by the Condo's (or your) insurer as they have a habit of cancelling general insurance if they find out short term sub-letting is taking place. You not only put yourself at severe risk you put other Condo owners who do the right thing at risk!
This question comes up so often, and I dare say what we see here on this forum is possibly just the tip of the iceberg. I have said it before and I will say it again.....Airbnb must start to enforce some compliance standards with listings or we will all suffer.
No sympathy I am afraid Alexander....you are the sole architect of your current dillema.....cheers....Rob
Momi
Momi
Dear @alexander
I would like to add on this as I am in the legal field here in Hawaii. (adding to what robin so eloquently wrote)
It really troubles me as a homeowner and a LANDLORD when tenants break the lease rules /condo rules/ Airbnb rules.
Please make it your business and rental responsibility to understand what you are doing to the homeowner as well.
I have been accessed over $500 in fines for what my tenants have done. And of course, I now have to seek getting that monies back from my tenants who broke several rules of the condo association because as their landlord, (and homeowner), I am the one held accountable to my Homeowners Association for anything my tenants do.
It is incredibly irresponsble on your part to not have read the rules on both Airbnb AND the condo association which 99.9% of them have clearly stated in their CONDO association terms and conditions on what is allowed and what is not. It is also your landlords duty to give you a copy of that book. If you didn't receive it, I recommend that you ask for it in the future should you move to a new place.
Guess what else is not allowed at my rental place? Pets! And yet, my tenants decided to sneak one in and destroyed my entire carpet which was only 4 years old. Guess who doesn't live in my condo rental unit anymore. You could actually be evicted over this.
Also, I think it would be very kind and mature on your part to write a letter TO EACH BOOKED GUEST explaining that you are being required to cancel because you didn't follow the rules of the condo building association rules, so the Airbnb guests doesn't blame this on Airbnb which I have seen many times on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. At least take the responsbility to do that. Please.
with Aloha Spirit,
Momi
Robin
@momi Thank you Momi....well said....cheers.....Rob
Alexander
Greetings Momi and Robin-
I appreciate the time it took you to write a response to my inquiry, if not necessarily the somewhat off-topic content or snarky tone. Granted, I should have expected as much, seeing as this is, after all, an internet community, and a good dose of Holier-Than-Thou is par for the course.
I suppose I will elaborate on my situation a bit, for better or worse. I am renting the apartment from my friend, who is the owner. I never recieved any Condo Association rulebook or guidelines when I moved in. It was he who had the idea, and encouraged me, to post the apartment on Airbnb, as I am quite often not occupying it. Seeing as my legal landlord encouraged me to post the apartment on Airbnb, I did not inquire as to whether this was violating a general building policy that I was unaware of.
After recieving notice from the Condo Association that I was in violation of the rules, (I can rent on Airbnb for 30+ days, it seems, but not less) I have started cancelling my reservations. Since I am not an complete scumbag, and actually quite a decent person, I am sending an apology to each person, letting them know that their funds are available immediately to rebook on Airbnb, or can be 100% refunded online, and furthermore hoping that this experience does not reflect poorly on the good people of Airbnb or the city of Portland. FURTHERMORE (Momi, let me know if caps are necessary, or just somewhat condescending...), I am directing each guest to another similarly priced Airbnb booking in Portland and offering assistance with neighborhood choice if they are not familiar with the city. So far it is going well, and the guests are thankful for my help.
I understand that you two probably see this situation quite often, but am quite put off by the tone of your replies. I can't help but point out that, in case you are wondering why you see this situation repeatedly, Airbnb makes it extremely easy to list an apartment, with only a halfhearted, if any, attempt to bring up issues that may have legal ramifications to hosts. And why not? They are a large corporation and the more people that host, the more money they make, and the more exposure. I am now faced with $1000 in penalties for a situation that is a legal and ethical grey area, at best, for yours truly. I can host for 30+ days (will be checking the heretofore unknown to me Condo Rules just to make sure), but will be hit with these fines taken out of any future earnings. Is there an appeals process here, or just a community of hosts going "tsk-tsk" and shaking their heads?
Momi, I am sorry about damage to your condo caused by tenants, as well as PETS, but am confused as to the relevance, unless you intended your reply to be a general rant on people not following the rules.
With Aloha Spirit,
Alexander
Helga
Helga
Most Helpful
@alexander, you could try to talk airbnb into considering the cancellations as caused by the same event and error and that they should apply only one penalty to all of them, not one to every single one. You have understandable cause for your error and it would encourage you to continue hosting with the same account and on airbnb.
Call them and keep trying. Try to get a case manager or get higher up and plead your good will. That you tried to minimise damage to guests and airbnb image should help, insist on that.
When the airbnb founders started to lodge students on an airbed in their living room, they did not have permission to do that either. Their "illegal" idea is worth billions today.
Unfortunately, this forum is getting more hostile by the day. And I could not even say if the unsolicited attacks are worse or the unmotivated All-is-well-be-happy nonsense the same people post on other triggers. It's just pavlovian reflexes is action.
I'm very sorry that you got that straight off when asking for help.
Good luck for your negotiations!
Robin
@alexander @momi....Yes Alexander, I was hard on you....and I offer no apology for that.
It may well be that you are to some extent, a victim of circumstance, in that you may have been given the wrong advice by (your) landlord but, in reality Alexander, ignorance is no excuse! The first thing I would have done in your situation, knowing full well this property was encumbered by Condo regulations, was seek a letter of approval from the Condo committee to begin hosting. Alexander, that's not brain surgery!!
I made mention of liability issues, and I did that for good reason Alexander....What if one of your guests had discarded a cigarette butt into a dumpster between two Condos (or worse, two blocks of Condo's) setting each of them on fire! Who pays if the insurance has been cancelled due to a sub-letting agreement???
I will tell you why your situation annoys me......
I have a cottage in my rear garden, and when I decided I wanted to host, I invited a council inspector to pay me a visit. After studying the premises fully he gave me a certificate of occupancy which declared that the cottage was fit for habitation and complied with all aspects of the local building code. But that did not give me the right to list! I still had to apply for council approval and the inspector told me that would not be possible if I listed it as the self contained facility that it is. This area is classified as R1 residential, meaning, one residence per allotment.....no exceptions!! The only way I could get approval was to list as a 'private room', infering that it shares facilities with the main house and is regarded as part of it. This limits an enormous amount of my listing appeal because most guests would prefer a self contained accommodation rather than one where they may run into some stranger in the middle of the night on the way to the toilet!!
Alexander, I did my homework, I have involved the relevant authorities every step of the way in my short hosting career, I have got all relevant approvals and insurances......and I can sleep at night!
I am doing my best to bring out THE best in the Airbnb concept, and as I said in my previous post it annoys me beyond measure when other don't.
I don't like to see others go through unwarranted financial cost and I really do feel a touch of pain at what will happen in your situation,. but Alexander, don't shoot the messenger, we did not dreate this problem for you! We are here to offer advice and to help each other.....this is not a cosy old closed shop, it is a community forum site and we each have to give advice, not just to the person whose post we are addressing, but to the rest of the community.
Alexander, I wish you luck and hope that next time you embark on this sort of thing you will prepare yourself a little bit better. Remember, every day teaches us something.....cheers......Rob
Alexander
Helga, thank you very much! I will try to get in contact with Airbnb and see if they can reduce these fines. I have had an excellent experience hosting and have met some wonderful people!
A bientot!
Alexandre
Momi
HI @alexander you are very welcome. Thanks for appreciating robin too.
And, I was not offended by your choice to cap the words you did....(furthermore and pets). Just made it easier to read without
my glasses. Nor was I put off by your reply......even though one could probably guess your tone wasn't delightful either.
thanks for elaborating your situation. Wish you had done so from the get so (I can remind your legal landlord/friend /condo owner that they too need to read their association rules as well. Ignorance is not a viable excuse in any regard.
Great to hear you contacted each guest, but completely disagree with your opinion about Airbnb as their terms and conditions are very clear.....for those who take the time to read them.
If you have more time, you should read the post I wrote yesterday THANKING another host for calling me out publically on giving the wrong advice to another host because I had read part of her question scenario wrong....and I sincerely thanked that host because I don't have an issue learning, humbling and appreciating anyone who takes the time to call me out even if it did embarass me. That's how we all grow.
and to address your other comments you directed at me....all I can say is...."YEP!"
with Aloha Spirit,
Momi
Robin
@helga....Hi Helga, Rather disappointed with that post. If you have checked on mine, in 95% of posts they have been cheerie, helpful and informative. It is very rare for me to sound off in the way I did here, and as I have just said, I did it for good reason.
We each need to respect each others opinions, realise that we are not always going to be right but, there are times for froth and bubble and there are times when home truths need to be told.
I respect what you have to say Helga, you have offered much sound advice over a considerable amount of time and, as a rule, I enjoy reading your responses......just not on this occasion....cheers....Rob
Momi
well the Good news @helga is, I am raising our 12 year old daughter to be a responsbile educated individual who should always check the laws, rules and get sound advice on anything she might consider doing or getting invovled with. (what she does at school, dance studio, karate, animal shelter volunteer job, etc, which is probably why she was recognized for being the most respected, disciplined, Straight A student at her school 4 years in a row. (Only one student per grade receives this annual award, "Principal Award". Yes I am a proud mommy.
here's a great example of this...this past weekend, she wanted to bring her big floaty raft to a hotel pool that we were going to be hanging out at with our Airbnb guests who checked into a hotel after staying with us for 6 days and invited us to join them. We were looking foward to it because we liked them alot. She asked me if she could bring her new pool toy which I replied that I wasn't sure. She googled the hotel number, called them and asked the manager if she was allowed to bring her pool toy with her. She received an approval which provided hours of fun for her and the other kids who were there. As a good parent, its my job to make sure she understands that just because a friend told her it was ok, doesn't make it so. Right Robin ?
with Aloha Spirit,
Momi
Helga
Desr folks, I dropped into this thread by chance and it contained three posts:
Alexander looking for advice and clearly distraught- most people do not rent their own living space for fun or to have company and facing a huge fine is a shock if you are not rich.
Then followed two posts telling him how it was his fault, how he should have avoided that situation and how good humans others are.
Sorry to say, I hate seeing if a man down is kicked for good measure and reading how good people think they are is rather boring. Shame on you for indulging in such self elevation and denigrating of other's without even knowing the background.
This is an international forum and it's improbable that all your moral values and choices will apply. People looking for help usually ask " What can I do now?" They do not ask "What should I have done?" Nor "What choice do you think is the best moral choice?"
Just answer with ideas for the future. After having been hit on the head by the consequences of the past choice, they know already what they should have chosen if they were omniscient.
The moralising is just disgusting, if I wanted that, I'd join a church.
Maryam Al Fakheer
100 Thumbs UP for you @helga
Robin
@helga.....Ok.I give up, I will go and look after my little corner of the 'Cabbage patch'. I had this misguided notion that we were here to offer advice, be it good or bad for others to learn from, but obviously I am wrong!!!!....we are here to hand out sugar coated pills!!!!
God almighty, what is the point of having a forum site....lets all just pat each other on the back.....deary me.....
Helga:
Robin, offer advice, that will be appreciated. Reproaches are not advice. Selfprise is not advice.
No need to add sugar nor vinegar. Just take the situation in, analyse future possibilities and indicate what is helpful. You can trust that Alexandre had already imagined the horror scenarios.
I really don't understand you. If you want to speak about your happy life, create your own threads. I remember your opossum story and that was really funny reading.
Then there are always threads where people tell a more harmless experience and others chirp in with similar experiences and everyone has a nice chat.
But someone facing a 1000 bucks in fines and the end of a business opportunity does not need stories about how you prepared everything meticulously to comply with every potential regulation in your part of the world.
- Or the other story, not yours, of an inflatable raft in a hotel pool. What was that? Kafka under laughing gas?
You are always advising to treat guests very kindly, often to the point of self-sacrifice. I’m pleading to treat your fellow hosts kindly too.
@maryam Al Fakheer, thank you !
Deanna
This comment was shared before being removed by Lizzie:
Robin, FYI Mostpeople find you to be a Meddling busybody, they just don't say so on this forum. Your scolding tone and constant references to yourself are quite tiresome.
Deanna
I always enjoy hearing your responses Helga, as you have a measured tone and speak from great life experience. And you have no sense of self-aggrandizement, unlike some of the other hosts who seem to get a real boost to their fragile egos by their constant pedantic and boring responses.
Helga
@deanna, so nice to see you again. We have to uphold our honor here, that we try to help before judging !
From an European point of view those Condo regulations seem very strange. We have regulations too between co-owners in residencies, but they are good will agreements not higher than civil law and religious commendments combined.
Jeet
Wow! Here's some soothing music. Hope it calms everyone down a bit
Also, at this point, I think it'd be nice if all of us take a quick CC Guidelines refresher
Here are some relevant to this thread.
1) Respect each other: New members and regular contributors, whether they’re Hosts, Guests, or Airbnb staff, all have the right to post their own views and ask questions, regardless of their level of knowledge. Different experiences and backgrounds are a huge strength of our online community! Let’s respect this and each other.
2) Say thank you: Many community members help others out and post amazing and useful content for everybody to see. Remember to say thank you by replying to their posts and clicking the Thumbs Up button below each helpful post. Liking a post can also mean that you agree with the point in the message, or that you have found it funny or useful. However, don’t manipulate the Thumbs Up function by actively trying to get others to give Thumbs Up to your own posts.
3) Stay on topic and avoid pointless posts: Avoid posting off topic replies that don’t offer value or contribute to the discussion. If you want to discuss something unrelated, start a new thread. Community Team staff may move replies/threads somewhere more appropriate if they start to head off topic. If you want to discuss something that doesn’t fit in any other category, or is not related to Airbnb, post it in our off-topic boards: The Living Room (Hosts) or The Cafe (Guests).
4) Encourage Best Answers: Ask or encourage members to accept one of the replies they received to a question as the accepted solution.
5) Don't threaten, personally attack others, or post hate speech: Safety is Airbnb’s first priority. Don’t threaten anyone - we will delete your content and we reserve the right to escalate to law enforcement. While it’s ok for you to speak broadly on people, companies, and issues in the public eye, we will act on any abusive behavior directed at private individuals when it comes to our attention. Similarly, you may challenge institutions, events, beliefs, ideas, and practices, but we strictly forbid attacks on people based on race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex, gender, sexual orientation, disability, medical condition, or other protected characteristics.
Happy hosting and keep helping
Jeet
Helga:
@jeet, what is this for? Please explain how any of the posts was in infraction of any of these guidelines.
I hate soothing music, but that's maybe a personal characteristic.
Jeet
Hello @helga,
Yup, it's a personal characteristic and that's fine, we all are diverse people and that's what makes this community so amazing
Unfortunately, if you fail to identify posts that violate the guidelines, you might be failing to understand the guidelines itself. I cannot think of any way to explain further.
Maybe someone else from the community can take a shot at helping you out.
Also, just to clarify, the Guidelines Refresher post is for everyone and not targetted specifically at you in case you thought that way
Helga
img src="https://a0.muscache.com/im/users/1122470/profile_pic/1371471019/original.jpg?aki_policy=profile_x_medium"]
@jeet, I was one of the launchpad hosts and my level 10 comes from a lot of hard work in testing the community center and giving feedback on its functions. I have no problem understanding guidelines per se, I fail to see why you feel the need to post your soothing music post like an ultimate crush on a discussion under adults which was not especially turbulent.
In the original specifications of the setup of the community center it was the aim that this forum should do all that the old forums did but better.
In the old forums, we helped and still help each other, motivate each other and laugh together. In this thread, at the beginning there was no intention of help nor motivation and no laughter.
I don't see how soothing everyone or giving moralising feedback could help anyone and it makes me wish to cry. My motivation in life is finding solutions to tricky questions, help people and laugh.
If you need harmony and soothing so much that it becomes an aim in itself, that's fine for you, but please let other people have differing opinions and let them express them.
If however you wish to insinuate that my mental capacities are not up to understand your level of reasoning, rest assured that that is not the case ;-) If you wish to insult me, be welcome to try but try harder to make it stick.
Jeet
@helga, it's actually funny that you think that my post was about soothing music, especially when 99% of it was about Community Guidelines.
Didn't mean to insult you, but if you still haven't understood the purpose of my post then, anyways, I'm off this thread.
Have a nice day
If a host has helped you today in the Community Center, feel free to thank them, give them a thumbs up and/or select "Mark as Most Helpful" to the left of the thumbs up.
Helga
@jeet, your post was not about soothing music, you used the guidelines and a remark about soothing music to end the discussion. As you were not involved in it and have not delivered a single argument so far, this was inapprobriate - not by definition of any forum guidelines but by the rules of civilised behaviour.
Have a nice day too.
Jessa
(this is JEssa's post prior to being edited/censored by Lizzie)
Robin your posts, and airbnbs grande roll out of a 'community center' neither managed by airbnb nor by hosts is the reason why the majority of hosts helping each other out on the old forums have no interest in this 'community'. You're mighty high in your ivory tower to be scolding someone with approval from his landlord to rent out a condo. I'm guessing it is due to the inflation in listings in the recent months not matching increase in demand that so many hosts find themselves with time on their hands to lecture and scold people for being in legally grey areas. Airbnb is in legally grey waters for that matter, across the globe, from Amsterdam to Cape Town to New York, hosts are fighting legislation. If it weren't for what you call ignorance, you'd have no airbnb listing. Hosts across the globe ignoring legal frameworks is the only reason why airbnb exists so please get off your high horse. As for the 'fines' - airbnb can't fine anyone who stops hosting, they're not the law, handing out fines is a distasteful move imo. @alexander I hope you can, together with your landlord, talk to the condo board and try to sway them into thinking airbnb is nothing to be afraid of, just like some of the commentators here have done amazing work swaying local legislators into thinking airbnb is nothing to be afraid of.
Lizzie's edited version of Jessa's comment:
*** airbnbs grande roll out of a 'community center' neither managed by airbnb nor by hosts is the reason why the majority of hosts helping each other out on the old forums have no interest in this 'community'. *** I'm guessing it is due to the inflation in listings in the recent months not matching increase in demand that so many hosts find themselves with time on their hands to lecture and scold people for being in legally grey areas. Airbnb is in legally grey waters for that matter, across the globe, from Amsterdam to Cape Town to New York, hosts are fighting legislation. *** Hosts across the globe ignoring legal frameworks is the only reason why airbnb exists so please get off your high horse. As for the 'fines' - airbnb can't fine anyone who stops hosting, they're not the law, handing out fines is a distasteful move imo. @alexander I hope you can, together with your landlord, talk to the condo board and try to sway them into thinking airbnb is nothing to be afraid of, just like some of the commentators here have done amazing work swaying local legislators into thinking airbnb is nothing to be afraid of.
Lizzie
Hello everyone,
I am just going to step in to this discussion.
I think we need to take a step back from this conversation and consider what is being posted. We welcome different opinions here and they don't always have to be positive, but I hope they will be constructive, and personal attacks on other members of the CC will not be tolerated (and is against the CC Guidelines). Most of the comments are not a response to the question at heart and simply not necessary and certainly not enjoyable to read.
For this reason, I have removed some of the comments here.
Alexander, I do hope you get this sorted.
Thanks, Lizzie
Louise
Actually Robin, the information given to you by your local council inspector is most likely wrong. Sadly, a not unusual occurence of late as councils all over the country are struggling to get their heads around the Airbnb concept.
Your local council is the District Council of Mount Barker, yes? Check the LEP and the prescribed and proscribed (if relevant) usages for residential zoning.
Firstly, regardless of where you reside in Australia, how you choose to describe your place on Airbnb is irrelevant under both state and local zoning laws and regulations. If it's on the same title as your house, the fact that it's physically attached, or not, to that part of the dwelling in which you reside is irrelevant. To take the inspector's reasoning to its logical and absurd conclusion, if you were to build an enclosed path between your backdoor and the granny flat entrance it would allegedly become compliant.
The inspector is likely to be confusing two issues - (A) the separate rental of two discrete properties on the one title with (B) your current proposed activity - the listing of the granny flat on Airbnb while you continue to reside on the property. The former (A) may or may not be permitted - depending on the DA and permitted usage applying to your granny flat. The latter (B), as you are currently residing on that title, is generally a permissible usage.
BTW, I find the tone of your posts often inappropriate. The information you dole out is frequently inaccurate and your 'advice' rarely helpful or supportive. The overarching impression is of someone whose primary succour is schadenfreude. Perhaps you're not even aware of it, but to many of us it would appear that you derive a great deal of pleasure in the suffering of others and seem to go to extraordinary lengths to boast of your own 'achievements' whilst belittling others. Is this really necessary? If you need to do this for your own well-being, perhaps you can find a less hurtful and hateful outlet?
JEssa:
the edits made by a London based consultancy firm that has nothing to do with airbnb - were me tagging Robin and calmly explaining that Robin's tone is the reason I rarely visit this 'community'. Good night <3
Maryam Al Fakheer
I am SHOCKED to see how lizzie deleted words and complete sentences out of the post of jessa!!!! This has nothing much to do with the guidelines anymore. No freedom of "speach" or opinion anymore here ?
Helga
jessa, louise, thank you.
I don't even know how I picked that fight but for the reason Louise mentioned, the general feeling of Schadenfreude instead of a wish to help. And the original poster certainly needed help.
lizzie you may well censor out the names, but people get the mails in full lenght.
Dave & Deb
I know this has nothing to do with the topic but, I would just like to say, I am so glad to see 3 of my favourite people over here.
Welcome @helga, jessa and louise!
Now you can return to the regularly scheduled broadcast!
Dave
If a host has helped you today in the Community Center, feel free to thank them, give them a thumbs up and/or select "Mark as Most Helpful" to the left of the thumbs up.
Louise
And Lizzie, I know your intial reaction may be to edit or even delete my post. But please, give pause before you do this. I believe, as clearly do many others, that my comments are warranted and they highlight what is becoming an increasing and worrying issue with this forum.
For whatever reason, the new style forum is creating an environment which is far removed from the supportive, engaged and collaborative style of the old Groups. I'd hope that Airbnb will take a step back and consider why this is so and more importantly, what needs to be done to address the destruction of the true sense of 'community' that existed prior to this 'improvement'.
Helga
@maryam Al Fakheer this forum was set up to have censorship and unfortunately it is not censored by qualified airbnb employees. The censorship was my first concern and it was absolutely clear from the beginning that a censored forum would not allow free speech and thereby only result in a a small circle of people who have no other wish as to confirm themselves, to raise a cult and praise the cult"s ideas.
The problem is only that this forum had the purpose in it's existance to vaunt airbnb's image and to increase the hosting capacities of airbnb's hosts and thereby to increase the image even more. And the money. I'm perfectly fine with that purpose.
As I see it, airbnb pays here to damage it's image and to have some less qualified hosts raise a cult and influence help seeking new hosts.
As said to @jonny before, I usually help a lot of hosts on other forums every day and many people estimate my advice. I will not continue giving that advice for free when my words are censored.
Helga
dave & Deb, thank you. I admired your stamina the last days, you and Clare hold up this forum as well as you can. Your guidebooks are great work.
I have been feeling more and more unwell in this environment, I dropped in yesterday to give it another try but it's an oppressive admosphere.
Maryam Al Fakheer
CENSORSHIP ? I can't believe this. This is not normal anymore. It seems that I have more freedom of speach or opinion here in Islamic JORDAN than in AIRBNB ! I know this practice of censorship from WWII !!! But NOT in modern world anno 2016 !
Ernie
Level 8
San Francisco, CA
"We believe in free speech, transparency, and clear communication."
Maxine:
Robin @helga Alexander -
Robin, I've followed some of your posts and sometimes I agree with your researched based assertions. However, as a fellow friendly host I feel you are coming across in this instance as more than a wee bit sanctimonious.
Helga was spot on, on point.
Alexander, got it wrong with the Condo - he trusted in a mate - something we have all done I'm sure. When he was advised of the rental issue by the condo - he went out of hs way to assist in the re-housing of his guests with a local, fellow ABB host.
Many others would not have done that. It was an honourable thing to do.
So in this instance Robin, give him some credit, and climb down off of that high horse before you fall and cause yourself an injury.
With best regards, M
Shannon
@maryam Al Fakheer, Censorship we have more on this page then the Groups. That is why I do not support this platform with my time. the more you all support this platform, visa vie, writing here the more censorship we will all swallow and the faster they will take down our Groups. I am only here now, at the prodding of Helga because of a disagreement. Come back to the A and S Group Maryam and say a curse word, or something that comes to mind, Freely. Rock on my sista, keep speaking the truth, but stop waisting your efforts here.
Shannon
Is this the Queen's Royal WE?
Shannon
maxine, Here, Here!!!
Shannon
@helga will you ever learn? LMAO. I cannot believe you snared me into this trap of muck and myer.
I feel as if I am getting motion sickness.
Shannon
@helga, You are spot on again. I have not found my way to the orgional condo thread because it is difficult to navigate this page as things are in horrid order. It is strange in America that the Condo and Home Owners Regulations over ride civil law. Why? It is called a wavier of Civil Rights, when you sign up and pay the board you trade a right for a license. A right cannot be taken away, but can be signed away and one can be dumb enough to pay for it, go figure, us FREEDOM loving Americans, sign away our freedoms, FREELY, but not free, every single day. It is sad really. I live in a city where there is NO HOA and NO Board. I have a fee simple estate. I can challange civil law, sure I probably won't win, but if my research is good and I don't hire an attorney, I might not lose to bad. John Locke would be spinning in a grave if such a thing were possible. What is funny is the rich people are the ones who can afford to pay to have their rights taken away, under the guise of, it is your neighbors rights that MAY be taken away if he does not obey any of the initial rules , or any following rules made up by a board of OCD nut jobs. I am not an attorney and this not legal advice.
Dave & Deb
@shannon, You are always a hoot! I think it is time for me to return to A & S. No lizzie, A&S may look like a swear but it is not so please do not censor me!
Look what you started @alexander!
Dave
If a host has helped you today in the Community Center, feel free to thank them, give them a thumbs up and/or select "Mark as Most Helpful" to the left of the thumbs up.
Shannon
Robin Actually, the first thing that should be done is to get out the condo regulations origionally agreed to and signed. Then to get a hold of any revisions to the orgional agreement and discover who and how many votes it took to amend. Then if you cannot find a loop hole there, Go to the individuals who revised or created said ammendments and ask for clarity. It is not a federal case, but every written and argued legal word goes back to the intent of the persons who authored the words and their ligitmacy at the time. This is not legal advice and I am not a lawyer. Just sayin. I am a paralegal and worked at a lawfirm for many years. Consult an attorney for the facts, after reading your documents.
Maxine
@shannon toot, toot, sister
Shannon
@alexander, Wait, what? Airbnb assessed the fine? Now I am lost. This thread is hard to follow as I cannot find your entire story. However, it did my heart good to see you have sorted it. It is like Helga said, you must keep calling and calling until you get a person at airbnb willing to take up your cause. So I take it you are still in business and not fined a grand? a freaking Grand? Holy Canolies.
Alexander:
Hello everybody(!)
I certainly didn't intend on instigating such a contentious debate, but I do have to say that I appreciate the responses, as some of them have been quite helpful, and even heartwarming. All the rest has been eye-opening and an interesting insight into Airbnb, as well as online user communities as a whole.
I am in the midst of talking to each guest that I have had to cancel, and the community in general (I hope) will be happy to hear that every guest, with no exception, has understood the situation and thanked me for the personal messages, while displaying no ill will towards Airbnb. I have spent much of the day helping guests rebook with other Airbnb hosts, which has involved running searches for their particular dates, recommending a few listings by name, and answering questions about the new listing locations and other changes. So far, so good.
@shannon Airbnb asses a $50 penalty for each cancellation, which means that as it stands now I have over $1000 of penalties, which will be deducted from any future earnings. I am at the moment waiting for my final guest (who is arriving 7 hours after the check-in time), to show her the apartment and make her feel at home, as I do with every guest. I expect to recieve no money for this 4 day reservation, and if the penalties stand will make almost no money in the future for a whole month's rental. I am in the process of appealing to Airbnb in hopes that they see my situation as somewhat extraordinary and reduce the hefty sum of penalties. We will see how that turns out.
dave & Deb Ha! Looks like I stuck my hand into a beehive! (Some of the responses have stung a bit)
Alexander
@helga Thank you so much for your helpful answers, as well as candid messages on the other topics. I enjoyed reading all of your replies, and your realistic approach to problems is a nice breath of fresh air.
Alexander
maxine Thank you! after the first two responses I wondered if I was living in an alternate universe where nobody makes any decision without reading every bit of fine print they can get their hands on. (In that universe, nobody would ever even make it to using iTunes, Adobe, etc...)
As a general rule, I follow the regulations as they are presented to me. In this situation, when my friend (and more importantly, legal landlord) encouraged me to list the apartment on Airbnb, I felt no responsibilty to dive into the Condo Association rules. I didn't even know there were Condo Association rules governing the apartment building!
@momi As entertaining, in a weird way, your short story was about the straight-A student, karate practicing daughter who googled a pool number to confirm that she could bring a floaty toy, I am at a loss to understand the relevance, again. Now, if her friend, who was the MANAGER at the pool, said "come to the pool I LEGALLY MANAGE, and be sure to bring your floaty toy", would you seriously have her call the pool and ask for the artciles of incorporation, book of regulations governing pool use, and relevant state, county and town statutes regarding floaty toy use in swimming pools? Because that is essentially what you are expecting me to do. That would be ridiculous, and for future reference those answers are unhelpful on a community forum.
Maryam Al Fakheer
dave & Deb @shannon maxine
Can somebody tell me what is the A and S group, please?
Olivier:
Maryam Al Fakheer,
It's the Anecdote & Storie old group (https://www.airbnb.fr/groups/429). Helga is one of the most important contributor, posting many many funny stories and anecdotes about being a host.
Olivier François
Maryam Al Fakheer
Thank you olivier François Is this group still active? Somehow I can not use the link you sent me.
Olivier François
@maryam Al Fakheer,
Try making a copy/paste of the link on your computer. If it doesn't work perhaps it's just still open to members (it is supposed to be closed, like all the other old groups after 29/04). And yes it's still active...and funnier than this one.
Maxine
@maryam Al Fakheer - hi, A & S = Anecdotes & Stories
See you in there :-)
Helga
@alexander, olivier François, maxine, @maryam Al Fakheer, @shannon,
Hi everyone,
thank you everyone who decided to come onto this thread – Alexander you got probably a surprise opening your mailbox and seeing the flood. I'll try to keep it to one message - to keep it short would be harder to me;-)
I'm impressed by your way of handling the crisis. You are certainly a very good host on whom guests can depend on in all circonstances. From a commercial point of view, it is more interesting to have reliable partners who can resolve even a dire crisis on their own leaving good impressions on the clients and not involving customer service for ridiculous questions.
In my estimation, it is in Airbnb's best interest to keep you hosting and not scare you off for good. Even if you loose the fight at hand with the condo board, you may find another place in three days, next year or in a few years, where you could exerce your skills and make money for yourself and Airbnb. Or make it for another intermediary...
In that sense, I proposed to negotiate a deal with Airbnb to waive part of the consequences to keep you as a convinced image ambassador for Airbnb, a future guest and a future host as well.
There is nothing immoral in such a proposition, it's a commercial deal which is frequently concluded between airbnb and hosts, between business partners, even between companies and the tax authorities of different countries.
From a psychological point of view, it's very hard to give money back but it is easier to waive future money, the more so if it's improbable to recover it. In that sense, you will have to be a very sharp negotiator to get the payment for your not yet paid hosting. Even if it hurts to lose money for which you worked, I would concentrate to keep the fines limited to that amount or better that amount less the charges you really had to host those guests. But in compensation, I hope you get the automatic posts about cancellation waived as this would make your account unusuable and would keep you from making any money under this name for yourself and for airbnb.…
Shannon, you opened my eyes concerning those condo regulations, which I never understood. Effectively, co-owners hand over some rights by designing a management, but in Europe, as Nathalie pointed out, you can't do that to an extent where it limits your civil rights or human rights. European lawmakers believe n protecting people from their own stupidity, Americans and Australians believe in applying natural selection. (Even if they are creationists).
As Olivier pointed out, there have been airbnb forums for several years, some dedicated to helping new hosts, worldwide or locally, others to different topics and there is the Anecdotes ans Stories forum, which is a stranger one than others. It was abandoned by its moderator a long time ago, so different hosts moderated it based on social pressure to good behaviour, but without any power to delete posts or throw out contradictory opinions. As it starts with A, it's the first in the list still presented in the app and every newbie who starts hosting with a phone, a place and not much else drops in there and asks questions. We post stories there and we answer the questions.
I was born and raised in a house full of guests, I worked for international companies in many countries and domains and we started renting our apartments 13 years ago when they were empty during our travels. That is a good way to finance a nomadic life style and for my peace of mind I found out only years later that it was in infraction of local laws – one of the sideeffects of moving from country to country : you have to learn the language first and pretty well, to be able to read cryptic rules which you never imagined that they even exist.;-)
The old groups have been declared dead twice so far as you can check in the announcements section of the community center. We got a delay of two months in the very last hours before execution this time. The new execution is planned for end of April. Evidently not everyone of the old guard likes it here, so there are many other forums now, none of them censored.
You find the old forums on the app or by going to your airbnb account on a computer. Then click on the address bar and delete everything that comes behind the dot com or dot local extension but leave the slash /. Then add groups/429 – 429 being the group number of the story forum. Or number 41, that's the New Host forum, with a more professionally helpful approach. NHF is there to help and sometimes laugh, S&A is there to laugh and then learn from it.
Robin, I'm sorry about what happened this time to you. Not that I caused it to happen but that the circonstances were set tot make it happen, inevitably. That it fell on you and Momi was just bad luck.
I believe you are rather a nice guy, a bit lonely and you found a forum here, in the sense of a public place where you can speak out and others will listen. Unfortunately, the more reasonable voices of the community left, first one by one and then in thrombes. You started to speak louder and louder and you found followers. Group dynamics kicked in, the censor helping and this board became a place where it's very easy to start snearing and get applause for it, where it's very easy to post a craintive post and be congratulated for fears and where posts can turn very paranoid and in my opinion creating a huge damage to the image of airbnb.
That was never the intent in creating a board nor a help desk.
In A&S we have also had a lot of new hosts who started posting with fearful questions. We answer reasonably, we motivate them, we find solutions for them, we make them laugh. We consider them, in Shannon's words, our fledglings. And we are very very proud and happy when they return as majestic swans and eagles and start helping others in their turn and tell us stories in their turn.
Robin, you had a long life, from what I gathered, it was full and you live in such an interesting part of the world. You love telling stories, in that sense we should understand each other. You would have much more success, if you just tell the stories and leave the conclusions to the readers. Tell what you did, for what rational reasons you did it and what was the outcome. It will have much more impact without the moral guidelines and people will praise you for it all by themselves.
Lizzie, you cannot carry water in a fist. I’ll post a statement on a non-public board later.
Besides, I found another bug: you can only hail the last five posters, then the function goes random. It was my intent to address everyone as in my experience it is more productive to address people personally and in clear words. That cannot be done here.
Lizzie
Hello everyone,
I wanted to come back to the points raised here about removal of text. This is something I don't take lightly and I don't like doing, but as I mentioned in my last post, personal attacks towards an individual are not permitted in the Community Center and if a response of this nature is posted then I have to remove it.
It is likely that you will not always agree with the way or tone someone has responded to you or another member here in the CC, but I believe it is the way we respond which is the important part. If you are unhappy with something, consider if your response will improve the mood and remember you can flag it to me and I can take a look.
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Helga, it is good to read you last post here; providing advice and possible options to Alexander. Thanks also for highlighting the name tagging function here, it does drive me crazy, but it is being looked in to - it is just a little trickier than it looks!
Thanks,
Lizzie
Maryam:
Lizzie I understand what you saying, but... I find your way of censoring selective. Some can post nasty unhelpful arrogant texts, and that is fine with you, but as soon someone comment on that, it get consored.....?
Jeet:
Greetings!
I'm not sure whether attacking an employee of the company under the pretext of "Free Speech" is ignorance about the fact that freedom comes with responsibilities OR is one of the the worst forms of Cyber-bullying existing today. I think it's the latter.
Abusing a person with a perspective different than yours on a public forum and gathering a support crowd from external groups is not Free Speech but bullying with the sole intension of breaking down the target. And if you are going to oppose this post too then you are most welcome but please be non-abusive, respectful and constructive in your expressions. Else, we definitely need a lesson here on valuing diversity of thoughts especially in a space that is created for the intention of learning from differences and varied experiences, bitter or sweet.
1) The refresher on CC guidelines wasn't irrelevant afterall.
2) Don't let a bunch of Hosts shut you up in a community made up of more than 3.5 lakh hosts and millions of travellers.
3) Let's actively flag inappropriate content and make CC a clean and safe forum, here's a How-to Guide on Reporting Inappropriate Content.
Good day
Jeet
If a host has helped you today in the Community Center, feel free to thank them, give them a thumbs up and/or select "Mark as Most Helpful" to the left of the thumbs up.
Helga
Jeet, I ignored you mostly and for good reason.
Lizzie is not an employee of airbnb.
I did not gather a crowd. I told Shannon in a private mail, as a joke, that I'm engaged in a discussion here, as Shannon is coming to Europe to meet a few hosts from a few European countries. That is an example of the relationships we formed on the other groups. I lured her to Europe to meet a dozen friends found on an airbnb forum ;-))
The funny thing is, a good part of the people who intervened after your posting of the houserules of this forum so Helpfully, have clashed with me over a topic or other, maybe several times. Several of us know of each other well, we know that we have different or even very different approaches to hosting. I'd say that these clashes and discussions have led to mutual respect and learning from each other. Evidently, that result is much easier obtained, if there is a minimum level of understanding and the desire to speak, not shut discussions down by hitting the other over the head with a rulebook.
I was surprised to receive such support but I don't attribute it to me personally. People came in to make their own concerns known. This
thread brought to light a growing feeling of unease about censorship in a modern society, about the way fellow help seeking hosts should be treated, about the conception of this forum culminiating in rules that all but forbid discussions and different opinions and exclude even the idea of several diverging solutions that could all be the right solution for someone.
The discussion brought it into the light, it's up to airbnb to decide what kind of forum will be the most profitable in the long run. Free help by engaged hosts who have great fun together, coach each other, console each other and make friends or else decouraging everyone with a problem by throwing rulebooks around. A chance for the company, to have both solutions active side by side for 5 months now, so they can make a really profond study of it.
Actually, I'm smiling reading your first paragraph that is visible whilst I write my answer: if you are not sure what it is, what you read and to what you make a statement, why do you make statements?
Analysing your words it's quite clear that you are very emotive, maybe exclusively emotive, and I'm on the opposite end of the human spectrum. The very idea of bitter or sweet experiences is very funny to me, there is no chance that we ever talk to each other and profit from it. But have no fear, I'll not post on new threads of this center anymore.
Maxine:
Wow - who knew one hosts request for help could end in such a dust up, censorship row & experienced hosts exiting the CC .
Robin.
Helga is well regarded for her balanced views & good sense advice put across in a way others can act upon without getting offended or feeling 'told off'.
Reading your story regarding the personal incidences that led to your approach to rule book advice explains a lot.
But you just need to find a more balanced way of presenting your views & advice. If you just thump people on the head or rap their knuckles with a heavy rule book - you'll get the reactions you have seen in this discussion
Helga did not court support at all. Another host posted a note in a Group saying has anyone seen the row going on ....... but only a couple of people popped in to take a peek - everybody else was already involved. There was no whipping up of a crowd, it formed organically & divided opinions. It also brought to a head the growing disquiet over ABB arbitrary censorship. And that became the bigger issue.
So whilst you might feel a bit bruised, remember you did wade in waving the rule book, that kicked it all off. So perhaps take a rest & think about how you can share your views & experience without whacking people with a big stick for misdemeanours.
Best regards, Maxine
Helga
Robin, I did not answer immediately to your post as I wanted to think it over. You decided to share such a painful personal experience and gave us insights into your personal feelings and that deserved a calm answer. Besides, I had a very nice guest and we spent a few hours together every day, having dinner and even redecorating the guest room together. An Airbnb experience at its best, one of those that you yourself cherish in hosting too. Less time to hang out in a forum for a few days.
I thank you for telling the story of your friends. That makes it understandable that you wish to verify that the i’s are dotted and the t’s crossed. For me it illustrates however that there is no guarantee that a layman reading all the rules before creating a business can exclude that a catastrophe may happen. Your friends, having good business sense and the sense of hard work, were certainly not careless. Perhaps they even read all the papers they signed. Perhaps it was a single word or sentence that was a trap. I have seen that too, in international companies and huge deals. But less rule trusting people expect deception and have insurance and failsafes against even that. I don’t see Alexander's experience so different from the story you told: he trusted he had all the rules covered.
I have seen that a few times, that good people dig their own graves, but never to the extent of your friends’ tragic outcome.
You conclude that the rules will safe you if you know them all and apply them all. My approach is that you will never be able to know all the rules and there will always be someone who finds a way to get a better interpretation against you. Therefore I do not judge how people arrived where they are, I see a situation, I guess or they tell me what they want and I find a way or two to make that happen as far as it can be made possible.
Sometimes I counsel strategies I would not follow to the end, as that end is not that important to me as to the poster and I’m less courageous than some. Sometimes I counsel strategies that I would do and find easy and others tell me « Helga, you dream, I could never do that. » Ok, I have to scratch my head some more ;-)
And often, in a forum, I’m one of the first to pick up a problem but I’m not the one finding the final workable solution for the poster. Everyone contributes and I learn from it as much as everyone else. With the advantage of an excellent memory, I seem so very much wiser the next time ;-)
It was very interesting to read that the community center structure and the unpredictable application of rules do not benefit you either. I saw the last row, when you left for a while. An ironie of the sort, then you crashed into a lawyer who has a lawyer’s approach to rules too. You did not discuss rules then but that it got so hot so fast was also due to opposite perceptions of procedure.
I can understand that forum writing is addictive, it is too me as well. I discovered the Anecdotes forum with a funny cry for help and was on the hook ;-)
I wanted to tell you not to give up forum writing. It takes all kinds to make a world and you are so dedicated and love writing, it would be a pity if you did not continue.
However I would suggest for your own personal satisfaction that you find a forum where you can express yourself to full extent without being one day censored for this the other for that and the third day sent to start new topics for new thoughts.
In a peer moderated forum, people find their tone, if you are too long, people tell you « I did not read to the end but the start was good » and you cut the next post shorter, if you are mean, people tell you so to your face and if you are nice or hilarious, people tell you so too. Wouldn’t you prefer that after all, to tell a funny story even if it was nothing important, just a funny exchange with a guest or a nice little experience, and to trigger laughter, other comments, a serious question treated in between and everyone has a good time?
I would chat with you anytime everywhere else - as said above a little clash now and then can create respect if people can face each other and clear the air.
It will not be here as I decided not to participate in new threads anymore in the present set-up.
maxine, thank you, but even if the church just restructures the procedure, you still have to wait that I'm dead to declare me a saint ;-)))