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Post by High Priestess on Feb 13, 2016 20:37:03 GMT
Yes, I agree I wish Cynthia had sought advice first before putting any offensive language in her listing. My general advice to people is that they learn how to screen guests instead of putting language in a listing about what kind of people they don't want. It is less hurtful and you are less likely to offend anyone that way.
But as we have seen countless times, people start hosting without knowing the first thing about renting out property or laws that apply to property rental--- and that can lead to serious problems in many areas.
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Post by High Priestess on Feb 13, 2016 21:22:22 GMT
I have a feeling that if this thread was originally posted on the Airbnb community center, it might have been deleted or censored out, which would have been very unfortunate as it would have removed a great educational opportunity. I am in favor of people being able to speak openly and honestly about potentialkt sensitive/political issues, instead of getting shut down and censored out.
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Post by helgaparis on Feb 14, 2016 20:22:49 GMT
I had seen this thread growing on short glimpses over coffee on a busy day and when I wanted to read it on a computer, it was already gone. Good that you saved it, with all the interesting links you all provided. When I read the first part, I was sad to see such a question, admired how you handled it and then quite astonished how much Cynthia could stand. The more the thread grew, the more I got the feeling of a person ill at ease with sexuality and especially gay sexuality maybe because she missed that in her life. It was like she was more fascinated by the question than looking for easy ways to filter guests. When she asked at the beginning if "that" was a problem for anyone else, I read that as a request to sort out or confirm her feelings.
- The problem with the Community Center and such questions is that the censors are neither experienced hosts nor very intelligent nor educated nor especially kind people. They could not weigh in into such a discussion like you did and for fear of it getting out of hand or commit an infraction, their best solution would be to delete all. Could you imagine Lizzie giving the slightest glimpse into her own life or personality? She (and the others) has no presence, airbnb should have stuck with robots only.
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Post by becks on Feb 14, 2016 21:10:58 GMT
Maybe she removed the listing while she thinks about the wording she wants to use? I can't imagine anyone would have reported her, but who knows. Personally, I think it's probably for the best that she reconsiders hosting. I agree with you, Deborah, that honesty is generally a good thing. But I do find the assumption that everyone who is reading such 'honest thoughts' on the groups is white, heterosexual and from an English-speaking country to be arrogant and ignorant. It happens all the time in all areas of life, of course, this language of 'us' and 'them'. My own belief is that it should be challenged on a personal level as well as in the corporate business arena. How else will society really change? Of course Cynthia is entitled to express her thoughts but, in my view, her language and attitude needs to be challenged: "Weeding out this type of guest" Really?? Nobody who is thoughtful about others' feelings would write such a thing in a public international forum. In conclusion, no sympathy from me!
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Post by High Priestess on Feb 15, 2016 2:42:11 GMT
I had seen this thread growing on short glimpses over coffee on a busy day and when I wanted to read it on a computer, it was already gone. Good that you saved it, with all the interesting links you all provided. When I read the first part, I was sad to see such a question, admired how you handled it and then quite astonished how much Cynthia could stand. The more the thread grew, the more I got the feeling of a person ill at ease with sexuality and especially gay sexuality maybe because she missed that in her life. It was like she was more fascinated by the question than looking for easy ways to filter guests. When she asked at the beginning if "that" was a problem for anyone else, I read that as a request to sort out or confirm her feelings. - The problem with the Community Center and such questions is that the censors are neither experienced hosts nor very intelligent nor educated nor especially kind people. They could not weigh in into such a discussion like you did and for fear of it getting out of hand or commit an infraction, their best solution would be to delete all. Could you imagine Lizzie giving the slightest glimpse into her own life or personality? She (and the others) has no presence, airbnb should have stuck with robots only. Helga, you are always so delightfully insightful, on nearly every question, I just love reading your thoughts on these things. (Besides which I believe you are a born storyteller!!!) I too was quite surprised that Cynthia was able to reply calmly and politely after getting people replying to her the way some did, which would have been hard to take.
You're quite correct about the difficulty with Lizzie as a moderator, in terms of her limitations as someone who is not a peer (but also not an Airbnb employee -- she's actually part of an independent contracting company Airbnb hired out the moderating work to). That she can't really talk about herself makes her less effective in helping create community, and makes the Community Center somewhat stilted or artificial as a host community. Several of us predicted that problem before the Community Center even opened, as soon as we heard they would not use peer moderators.
ANd again, it's true that "censorship" is best when handled with wisdom, experience, finesse, and kindness. Lizzie does try her best to be polite and kind, I see that, but because she's not a peer, not a host, and is just an employee, that kindness has a different ring -- she has no stake in the game, no personal investment really in what happens on the forum. So that introduces the artificiality.
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Post by mbishara on Feb 15, 2016 9:29:37 GMT
Hi, In my opinion, if I can handle a straight couple in my rental's bedroom then I can handle a gay couple as well.
You're letting your imagination run with you. It's better not to imagine what someone does in the privacy of their own home (or rental) as long as they're respectful of your space.
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Post by High Priestess on Feb 18, 2016 4:22:22 GMT
Here's what happened to an Airbnb host in Texas who evicted a gay couple from her home: sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/04/30/airbnb-bans-host-who-evicted-gay-couple-from-texas-home/" — AirBnb has banned a host who allegedly kicked a same-sex couple out of a home they rented in Texas shortly after discovering they were gay. Jonathan Wang and his partner Brent booked two nights in the Galveston home for a friend’s wedding last week. After returning from the reception, the owner named “Heather” engaged them in a startling conversation: “Heather asked me, where my wife was. Who is this person? I said it was my significant other Brent. She said I thought you were bringing a wife. I said I didn’t say that specifically. I said is that going to be OK? She said. It’s not,” said Wang. Wang said the hosts told them to get out. He said he began packing his things. “She also commented while we were going upstairs that was their bedroom upstairs so they were even more uncomfortable with it,” said Wang. Wang and his partner eventually found a hotel room for the night. They later discovered there was a disclaimer on the bottom of the AirBnb listing, now removed, that said the hosts are “straight friendly” despite Galveston’s reputation as Texas’ gay friendliest destination. When asked if she rents to gay couples, Heather said, “That’s none of your business. That’s my private home.” AirBnb responded by removing the owner from the website, saying it has a zero tolerance policy for discrimination and “clear guidelines that a host or a guest may not promote hate or bigotry.” AirBnb also gave Wang and his partner a refund." ANALYSIS OF WHAT HAPPENED HERE:Keep in mind, as discussed above, it is totally legal to decline a guest or guests on ANY basis whatsoever. SO this host could have privately decided she did not want to rent to a gay couple, and carefully screened guests to exclude such,and that would be totally legal. However, it is illegal to tell someone that you are rejecting them because they are gay , or a gay couple. You can reject people on that basis but you cannot make statements to that effect. (Meaning, in essence, "don't ask don't tell" -- you can do something but can't honestly say what you are doing -- an odd way to create law, to say the least). So this host could have refused this gay couple, but where she went wrong, was evicting them, on the basis that they were a gay couple, once they arrived. That was not legal. This is an odd law, this weird "dont' ask don't tell", so it's important that hosts fully understand this. THose who understand this will understand why so many people who respond to Craigslist ads never hear back from those they contact. Most people renting property are wise enough to know that unfortunately the law does not allow you in many cases to be honest about why you are declining someone.
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Post by andrew on Feb 18, 2016 16:06:21 GMT
Actually, many people are surprised to learn that this is not true! The US has made a lot of progress on civil rights in recent years, but many in many states it is still perfectly legal to explicitly discriminate based on sexual orientation in housing, public accommodations, and employment. Texas is, predictably, one of those states, and there is currently no federal override to that. Note, for example, that in the Federal Fair Housing laws you posted, sexual orientation is not one of the protected categories at the federal level. So in 2016, Jonathan and Brent can get married in Texas, but they can still be denied a place to live, fired from their jobs, or kicked out of their honeymoon suite on their wedding night due to being a gay couple in Texas. And yes, this does still happen all the time - it's just that we only hear in the news about the wedding cakes and bouquets that get denied, rather than the lost livelihoods.
The Airbnb host may have been well aware that when she kicked out the gay couple, she was protected from prosecution according to state law (though the city of Galveston may have its own policy on the matter). Anti-gay advertising would be problematic, but not because of the Federal Fair Housing Act (which doesn't apply to LGBT people in Texas) but rather because advertising tends to pass through channels that have their own policies.
And that's where Airbnb comes in. Their own policy requires hosts to uphold local discrimination laws, but also has a pretty wide latitude to apply their own standards: "we prohibit content that promotes discrimination, bigotry, racism, hatred, harassment or harm against any individual or group, and we require all users to comply with local laws and regulations." This broadly gives Airbnb the discretion to remove listings and hosts that practice anti-gay bigotry everywhere, including the 78 countries where gays have no civil rights whatsoever.
In addition to being what I consider a fair policy, this is also good for their brand. They have a pathetically low bar to entry for hosts, but their concept fails if too many people have experiences like this. Their core market is Millennials, who are overwhelmingly in favor of LGBT rights, and LGBT folks ourselves make up a very significant portion of their business. There are many competitors out there angling for the gay market (MisterBnb, Ebab, Purpleroofs, etc) and if we can't use Airbnb without the full expectation that we'll be treated like any other guest, we will take our business to those that explicitly guarantee a gay-friendly environment. When Airbnb ditched the keyword search, they made it much harder to locate listings that promoted themselves as LGBT-friendly - with that in mind, I think it behooves them to "weed out" the hosts that are not gay-friendly.
Including Cynthia.
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Post by High Priestess on Feb 18, 2016 16:12:11 GMT
I think you're right, ANdrew -- I hadn't thought of that, but it's true that sexual orientation is NOT a protected category in every US state. It is in mine, and in many, but not in all, and so it's true that in many places one can make statements that one refuses to do business with a gay couple. I think Airbnb's policy is particularly important in such settings.
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Post by High Priestess on Feb 19, 2016 0:41:45 GMT
I still think Cynthia could have a career as a host -- perhaps not an Airbnb host but some type of host -- perhaps hosting Church Ladies? I see no problem with anyone setting up a niche hosting career and a target audience. I have seen some Airbnb listings that clearly cater to nudists, for instance -- and then there is the whole www.budandbreakfast.com/ which caters to cannibis users. So why not a bnb site for Church Ladies?! Just....they couldn't be gay male Church Ladies, for Cynthia, I guess.....
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