Post by High Priestess on May 30, 2016 0:29:00 GMT
Gretchen shared on Hosting 911
www.airbnb.com/groups/content/content-101823
I just kicked out our renters for smoking pot in the house and having extra guests.
I'm just venting because it's all over now (I hope, they're pretty pissed off).
Our listing will sleep 8 and we clearly list that we have three queen beds and a queen air mattress. This "guest" emailed last minute yesterday wanting to rent for 6 people. Fine. She was only 21 but she was honest about it. Fine. She didn't have any reviews but we've frequently rented to first timers and most people have been great so, ok. I'll give them a shot. Any one of those things would probably have been fine but all three? I must have lost my mind.
A neighbor called tonight to say that they'd seen a minivan pull up, 8 people go into the house, then the van drives away with two people still in it. At this point they didn't have a car at the house so someone was coming back for sure. Then a different car pulls up and one more person goes in.
So I call Airbnb to find out what my options are and emailed them the contract that we make everyone sign showing the number of people they'd agreed to and the part of the contract that says they may not have additional guest on the property at all and that violation means they must immediately vacate and forfeit the remaining rent.
Airbnb tells me I can tell them they have to keep to 6 guests or I can tell them they need to vacate immediately. I decide that since they've already broken my trust that I'll tell them they have to leave. I go over to the house (about 15 minutes away from my apartment) and there are cigarette butts all over the front steps (also against house house rules and agreement). I knock on the door and (I'm so not kidding, this was like walking into a Cheech and Chong movie) the kid who answers is breathing out smoke that is obviously pot. It hits my face (disgusting) like a wall. I ask if the person who rented the house is there and he coughs (!) out more smoke and says "Just a minute, who's calling?" I say "the owner" and he disappears. She comes out and I tell her that shes violated our contract and what her violations were and that they need to leave. She just replies "ok" and goes back inside.
I went back to sit in my car and to their credit, they left in half an hour. They come over to my car and start yelling at me that it's perfectly legal to smoke pot in Colorado so I'm breaking the law by kicking them out (I'm not) and that the house doesn't actually sleep 8 like our listing says (We list three beds and a queen air mattress, if they'd read the listing they would know that, also, they only rented for 6 so why should that matter?) and that I was trespassing (!) by coming on the property that THEY were renting (of course our agreement says that we have access to the house at any time). They argue with me for a few minutes about whether or not they will get a refund for tonight (they won't, we're strict) then flip me off and drive away blasting their horn all the way down the street. So I go inside to change the entrance code so they can't come back and the house smells like, I'm sure, the frat house in National Lampoon's Animal House. Stale beer and pot. The also unrolled all the toilet paper onto the floor.
So that happened. Obviously we'll get a scathing review from them but we have 26 great reviews so I'm not too worried about that. We are being reviewed for superhost status (and meet the requirements) so I wonder if this will ruin that. Ugh. I'm thinking we need a minimum age to rent in the future.
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Deborah
Nic and Rach
ian
Deborah
Deboraha year ago
Good for you for kicking them out!! Sorry though that you had to go through the hassle of dealing with such nasty folks and their abusive response to you.
See what I wrote below on the other post about the guests smoking pot in the host's space...I think it might be good for those of you in Colorado to very specifically state in your house rules that even though marijuana is legal in your state, it is PROHIBITED to smoke it in your home, just like it is prohibited to smoke tobacco in your home which is also totally legal. Even though this should be quite obvious, as you can see from what these dingalings said to you as they were leaving, they felt entitled to smoke pot in your home simply because it was legal in your state. So perhaps they intentionally misinterpreted your rule against pot smoking indoors as being solely based on pot being illegal -- eg their clueless rationalizing might go: "well she won't let us smoke it because she thinks it is illegal but IT's NOT so her rule isn't legal". Just being one more bit redundant in house rules could help with such dingbats...possibly. At the end of the day, though, people are always going to have their insane justifications for their incredibly disrespectful behavior.
At which point we just have to wave them off....and write an honest review.
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Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
I posted below too but here is what our rental agreement says. I voted to legalize pot and so far all the people who have come to Denver as pot tourists have been exemplary guests. Ironically one of the cruddier guests we had were in town for a Christian convention. They stole the towels.
"Smoking is allowed outside only. A $300 fee will be charged for elimination of any smoking odors or litter indoors or out. Please dispose of all smoking trash in the dumpster in the alley, not in the trash cans inside the house. We are very proud of Colorado’s progressive stance on marijuana and ask that you follow all laws concerning the possession and consumption of marijuana and dispose of any leftovers in legal ways and according to this agreement. It is legal to smoke marijuana outside while on our property and you do have our permission."
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Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
I don't smoke pot but I felt that we were fighting an un-winnable war and the resources we were using to jail minor drug crimes could be better used elsewhere.
Deborah
Deboraha year ago
Very good statement in your rental agreement!! You make it clear that you allow smoking outside, which is more generous than many hosts. I would maybe put the word OUTSIDE in bold, and make it OUTSIDE ONLY while on our property, just for those who are speed-reading your rules and after they come to the part about "proud of Colorado's progressive stance on marijuana" they just skip over the next part, thinking they have got the picture on your rules on marijuana.
kat
kata year ago
Gretchen, I'm sorry to hear about this. I went through something a little similar just this week (which I posted about here) in that a party of 3 (my max) turned into 5. In my case, they realized immediately my home wouldn't accommodate them so they left in the middle of the night and then demanded to litigate if they didn't get a full refund. I've been dealing with it all week; what ABB has decided to do has still not been disclosed to me. Like you, I saw red flags before they rented but didn't heed them. Unfortunately, I was not in town so I couldn't take care of things personally. It sounds to me like you were totally justified in your decision and good for you for standing firm. I'm glad this is unusual and that you've had so many good experiences. This is only my fourth ABB experience and a one out of four batting average makes me a little nervous.
Reply Like 1 reply•1 like
Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
Oh, I'm so sorry! Really, I knew I shouldn't rent to them but I've given young kids a chance in the past and they've been great so . . . I really do feel that while there are some that will take advantage most are really great. Stick with it a bit longer. Mostly it's rewarding.
Salvia
Salviaa year ago
Kudos to you Gretchen! And I am so glad for You that they left right away! Besides you have all my respect not only for your attitude and believe in the fight for legalization of Marihuana but also for willingness to give younger guests a chance to book. The ones who were respectful could also help others to behave when you review them also a bit like "role models"; transmitting that way the message what decent and respectful behaviour looks like.
We can not educate everyone but can do our best to help find good host/guest matches.
Reply Like 1 like
Joyce
Joycea year ago
Gretchen, you have my admiration and respect!
You handled that so perfectly. I am taking note of your house rules and I am making changes to my rules today. I am so glad you posted this, I learned so much on how to handle a situation like this. I know it will happen again, it's life in Colorado now.
Reply Like 1 reply•1 like
Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
The house rules listed on Airbnb are just the highlights. We also make them sign a rental agreement that is much more lengthy and covers the contents of the house, the dates and times of the rental, the penalty of checking out late (an extra night will be charged, a price list for linens and towels should they go missing or be ruined, conditions under which we will offer a refund (Basically evacuation of our home or theirs, a natural disaster that make the house inaccessible, and airport closure), sound violations and Denver's laws about excessive noise, that they will be removed from the property if they violate noise ordinances, that we encourage them to purchase travel insurance, only use appliances for their intended purposes, that they will keep the property in good working order, that we don't provide housekeeping during their stay, that they will not have open flames indoor or use the fireplace, our pet policy, Denver's parking policies, instructions about not flushing anything but toilet paper and waste as the plumbing is a bit touchy.
kat
kata year ago
BTW, Gretchen, your house is beautiful. Is that 171/night for as many as 6 people? That's a bargain (by LA standards, anyway). I know where I'm staying when I visit CO! ;-)
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Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
That's about what the market will bear this time of year. Our summer rates are a bit higher and I think I'll raise them even more next summer as we're booking up pretty fast. It hurts us that we have only one bathroom.
Carrie
Carriea year ago
Gretchen - I think that they won't be able to leave a review. Assuming you (or they) cancel the reservation - they didn't even stay one night, right? So, if the reservation is cancelled, neither one of you can leave a review.
Reply Like 3 replies•2 likes
Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
This was the second night of their two night stay, neither of us canceled. I just contacted airbnb and they said I could kick them out.
Carrie
Carriea year ago
Oh, OK. I thought they hadn't actually stayed there yet. So, yes, you can both leave reviews. My bet is that the guest won't, but you never know.
Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
I'm pretty sure they will as they totally felt the were justified in all their violations. They argued that they were vaping instead of smoking indoors and my agreement says smoking so they weren't breaking the rules. That their friends were only staying the night because they had an early flight and wanted to be closer to the airport, that the house doesn't actually sleep 8 and we were advertising falsely. Despite the fact that they rented for 6 people. That I was trespassing because they had paid for the house so it was theirs for the time they rented. All very poor arguments but in their mind they were the ones taken advantage of. It seems to me that they are ignorant of the law and have a nasty surprise coming if they try to take us to court.
kat
kata year ago
I didn't realize that. Is that true?
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Salvia
Salviaa year ago
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Sheryl
Sheryl a year ago
Sorry this happened. Much admiration for the way you handled it!
While it is not your fault that your guests did not follow your rules, I would like to suggest that a simpler presentation might increase the chances that future guests will read and understand them. As we all know, guests’ attention spans are limited (including mine!). Honestly, by the time I got to the language about how proud you are of the laws, my attention started drifting. I had already concluded you were cool with pot smoking and wasn’t thinking about the rest!
I would like to suggest this language:
NO smoking indoors. A $300.00 fee will be charged for the removal of any smoke odors detected inside.
NO littering of the premises. A $300.00 fee will be charged for the removal of litter found indoors or outdoors. This includes cigarette butts and debris found outside.
Of course, your security deposit should be at least $300.00. And I think you should place a “smoking stand” outside of the door of the home. Guests won’t have the excuse of having no place to put their butts.
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Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
Those are great suggestions. I'm not going to place a smoking stand outside as I think they're disgusting and I don't want people to have to smell them coming up to the house. Also I don't want to deal with emptying it. If they litter I charge them. It's their job to read the rules tho you're right that I can make them more clear. Saying "but I didn't read the contract!" is not a valid legal way out of a contract. If you sign it and it's a valid contract you're bound to it, whether you read it or not. I'm not their mom. This may be a nasty lesson for them but I imagine it will stick!
Sheryl
Sheryl a year ago
Of course it's not. But a lot of guests don't really understand that their payment to you for accommodations presented with specific rules IS actually a contract. While you may be right on the back end if they violate your rules, I think it's better to "help" guests not do so.
And I understand your point about the smoking stand. Maybe an ashtray for outside? Just offering a suggestion for a place for them to put their smoking debris. To me, not having any is like not having trash cans as a place to put the trash. Smokers instinctively drop their butts on the ground - - - especially if there is nowhere else to put them .
You know, another option is NO SMOKING. If you are a non-smoker and find it disgusting, why not eliminate all possibilities!
Reply Like 2 replies
Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
I really think that even if we make the house no smoking at all we'll still have people breaking that rule. So I'd rather define the parameters right away. So far I've never found a butt on the ground near the house. So it's not that big a problem. So far everyone has managed to make it to the dumpster in the alley with their trash.
Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
Oh, and that's also why we make everyone sign a contract. So they know they are entering a legal arrangement. I think many people don't really read it so that's a problem but I don't know how to overcome that one. It clearly says that they can't use the fireplace but this time of your I'd say about half of people call me to ask if they can have a fire. So they aren't reading it for sure. Also, we have a welcome letter with some emergency information, a quick recap of the most important rules and the code to get into the house. A few people email me back saying I forgot to send the code. It's there, it's just buried in the text so they have to actually read it to find the code.
kat
kata year ago
I'm just going to back up here -- because this pertains to my situation too. If a guest cancels on you after staying just one night (or less) then are they unable to leave a review? That would be a relief. I've been waiting to see if these people who canceled were going to leave a review.
Reply Like
Deborah
www.airbnb.com/groups/content/content-101823
I just kicked out our renters for smoking pot in the house and having extra guests.
I'm just venting because it's all over now (I hope, they're pretty pissed off).
Our listing will sleep 8 and we clearly list that we have three queen beds and a queen air mattress. This "guest" emailed last minute yesterday wanting to rent for 6 people. Fine. She was only 21 but she was honest about it. Fine. She didn't have any reviews but we've frequently rented to first timers and most people have been great so, ok. I'll give them a shot. Any one of those things would probably have been fine but all three? I must have lost my mind.
A neighbor called tonight to say that they'd seen a minivan pull up, 8 people go into the house, then the van drives away with two people still in it. At this point they didn't have a car at the house so someone was coming back for sure. Then a different car pulls up and one more person goes in.
So I call Airbnb to find out what my options are and emailed them the contract that we make everyone sign showing the number of people they'd agreed to and the part of the contract that says they may not have additional guest on the property at all and that violation means they must immediately vacate and forfeit the remaining rent.
Airbnb tells me I can tell them they have to keep to 6 guests or I can tell them they need to vacate immediately. I decide that since they've already broken my trust that I'll tell them they have to leave. I go over to the house (about 15 minutes away from my apartment) and there are cigarette butts all over the front steps (also against house house rules and agreement). I knock on the door and (I'm so not kidding, this was like walking into a Cheech and Chong movie) the kid who answers is breathing out smoke that is obviously pot. It hits my face (disgusting) like a wall. I ask if the person who rented the house is there and he coughs (!) out more smoke and says "Just a minute, who's calling?" I say "the owner" and he disappears. She comes out and I tell her that shes violated our contract and what her violations were and that they need to leave. She just replies "ok" and goes back inside.
I went back to sit in my car and to their credit, they left in half an hour. They come over to my car and start yelling at me that it's perfectly legal to smoke pot in Colorado so I'm breaking the law by kicking them out (I'm not) and that the house doesn't actually sleep 8 like our listing says (We list three beds and a queen air mattress, if they'd read the listing they would know that, also, they only rented for 6 so why should that matter?) and that I was trespassing (!) by coming on the property that THEY were renting (of course our agreement says that we have access to the house at any time). They argue with me for a few minutes about whether or not they will get a refund for tonight (they won't, we're strict) then flip me off and drive away blasting their horn all the way down the street. So I go inside to change the entrance code so they can't come back and the house smells like, I'm sure, the frat house in National Lampoon's Animal House. Stale beer and pot. The also unrolled all the toilet paper onto the floor.
So that happened. Obviously we'll get a scathing review from them but we have 26 great reviews so I'm not too worried about that. We are being reviewed for superhost status (and meet the requirements) so I wonder if this will ruin that. Ugh. I'm thinking we need a minimum age to rent in the future.
12 comments•3 likes
Following
Liked
Deborah
Nic and Rach
ian
Deborah
Deboraha year ago
Good for you for kicking them out!! Sorry though that you had to go through the hassle of dealing with such nasty folks and their abusive response to you.
See what I wrote below on the other post about the guests smoking pot in the host's space...I think it might be good for those of you in Colorado to very specifically state in your house rules that even though marijuana is legal in your state, it is PROHIBITED to smoke it in your home, just like it is prohibited to smoke tobacco in your home which is also totally legal. Even though this should be quite obvious, as you can see from what these dingalings said to you as they were leaving, they felt entitled to smoke pot in your home simply because it was legal in your state. So perhaps they intentionally misinterpreted your rule against pot smoking indoors as being solely based on pot being illegal -- eg their clueless rationalizing might go: "well she won't let us smoke it because she thinks it is illegal but IT's NOT so her rule isn't legal". Just being one more bit redundant in house rules could help with such dingbats...possibly. At the end of the day, though, people are always going to have their insane justifications for their incredibly disrespectful behavior.
At which point we just have to wave them off....and write an honest review.
Reply Like 3 likes
Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
I posted below too but here is what our rental agreement says. I voted to legalize pot and so far all the people who have come to Denver as pot tourists have been exemplary guests. Ironically one of the cruddier guests we had were in town for a Christian convention. They stole the towels.
"Smoking is allowed outside only. A $300 fee will be charged for elimination of any smoking odors or litter indoors or out. Please dispose of all smoking trash in the dumpster in the alley, not in the trash cans inside the house. We are very proud of Colorado’s progressive stance on marijuana and ask that you follow all laws concerning the possession and consumption of marijuana and dispose of any leftovers in legal ways and according to this agreement. It is legal to smoke marijuana outside while on our property and you do have our permission."
Reply Like 2 replies•2 likes
Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
I don't smoke pot but I felt that we were fighting an un-winnable war and the resources we were using to jail minor drug crimes could be better used elsewhere.
Deborah
Deboraha year ago
Very good statement in your rental agreement!! You make it clear that you allow smoking outside, which is more generous than many hosts. I would maybe put the word OUTSIDE in bold, and make it OUTSIDE ONLY while on our property, just for those who are speed-reading your rules and after they come to the part about "proud of Colorado's progressive stance on marijuana" they just skip over the next part, thinking they have got the picture on your rules on marijuana.
kat
kata year ago
Gretchen, I'm sorry to hear about this. I went through something a little similar just this week (which I posted about here) in that a party of 3 (my max) turned into 5. In my case, they realized immediately my home wouldn't accommodate them so they left in the middle of the night and then demanded to litigate if they didn't get a full refund. I've been dealing with it all week; what ABB has decided to do has still not been disclosed to me. Like you, I saw red flags before they rented but didn't heed them. Unfortunately, I was not in town so I couldn't take care of things personally. It sounds to me like you were totally justified in your decision and good for you for standing firm. I'm glad this is unusual and that you've had so many good experiences. This is only my fourth ABB experience and a one out of four batting average makes me a little nervous.
Reply Like 1 reply•1 like
Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
Oh, I'm so sorry! Really, I knew I shouldn't rent to them but I've given young kids a chance in the past and they've been great so . . . I really do feel that while there are some that will take advantage most are really great. Stick with it a bit longer. Mostly it's rewarding.
Salvia
Salviaa year ago
Kudos to you Gretchen! And I am so glad for You that they left right away! Besides you have all my respect not only for your attitude and believe in the fight for legalization of Marihuana but also for willingness to give younger guests a chance to book. The ones who were respectful could also help others to behave when you review them also a bit like "role models"; transmitting that way the message what decent and respectful behaviour looks like.
We can not educate everyone but can do our best to help find good host/guest matches.
Reply Like 1 like
Joyce
Joycea year ago
Gretchen, you have my admiration and respect!
You handled that so perfectly. I am taking note of your house rules and I am making changes to my rules today. I am so glad you posted this, I learned so much on how to handle a situation like this. I know it will happen again, it's life in Colorado now.
Reply Like 1 reply•1 like
Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
The house rules listed on Airbnb are just the highlights. We also make them sign a rental agreement that is much more lengthy and covers the contents of the house, the dates and times of the rental, the penalty of checking out late (an extra night will be charged, a price list for linens and towels should they go missing or be ruined, conditions under which we will offer a refund (Basically evacuation of our home or theirs, a natural disaster that make the house inaccessible, and airport closure), sound violations and Denver's laws about excessive noise, that they will be removed from the property if they violate noise ordinances, that we encourage them to purchase travel insurance, only use appliances for their intended purposes, that they will keep the property in good working order, that we don't provide housekeeping during their stay, that they will not have open flames indoor or use the fireplace, our pet policy, Denver's parking policies, instructions about not flushing anything but toilet paper and waste as the plumbing is a bit touchy.
kat
kata year ago
BTW, Gretchen, your house is beautiful. Is that 171/night for as many as 6 people? That's a bargain (by LA standards, anyway). I know where I'm staying when I visit CO! ;-)
Reply Like 1 reply
Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
That's about what the market will bear this time of year. Our summer rates are a bit higher and I think I'll raise them even more next summer as we're booking up pretty fast. It hurts us that we have only one bathroom.
Carrie
Carriea year ago
Gretchen - I think that they won't be able to leave a review. Assuming you (or they) cancel the reservation - they didn't even stay one night, right? So, if the reservation is cancelled, neither one of you can leave a review.
Reply Like 3 replies•2 likes
Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
This was the second night of their two night stay, neither of us canceled. I just contacted airbnb and they said I could kick them out.
Carrie
Carriea year ago
Oh, OK. I thought they hadn't actually stayed there yet. So, yes, you can both leave reviews. My bet is that the guest won't, but you never know.
Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
I'm pretty sure they will as they totally felt the were justified in all their violations. They argued that they were vaping instead of smoking indoors and my agreement says smoking so they weren't breaking the rules. That their friends were only staying the night because they had an early flight and wanted to be closer to the airport, that the house doesn't actually sleep 8 and we were advertising falsely. Despite the fact that they rented for 6 people. That I was trespassing because they had paid for the house so it was theirs for the time they rented. All very poor arguments but in their mind they were the ones taken advantage of. It seems to me that they are ignorant of the law and have a nasty surprise coming if they try to take us to court.
kat
kata year ago
I didn't realize that. Is that true?
Reply Like
Salvia
Salviaa year ago
[-[
Reply Like
Sheryl
Sheryl a year ago
Sorry this happened. Much admiration for the way you handled it!
While it is not your fault that your guests did not follow your rules, I would like to suggest that a simpler presentation might increase the chances that future guests will read and understand them. As we all know, guests’ attention spans are limited (including mine!). Honestly, by the time I got to the language about how proud you are of the laws, my attention started drifting. I had already concluded you were cool with pot smoking and wasn’t thinking about the rest!
I would like to suggest this language:
NO smoking indoors. A $300.00 fee will be charged for the removal of any smoke odors detected inside.
NO littering of the premises. A $300.00 fee will be charged for the removal of litter found indoors or outdoors. This includes cigarette butts and debris found outside.
Of course, your security deposit should be at least $300.00. And I think you should place a “smoking stand” outside of the door of the home. Guests won’t have the excuse of having no place to put their butts.
Reply Like 1 reply
Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
Those are great suggestions. I'm not going to place a smoking stand outside as I think they're disgusting and I don't want people to have to smell them coming up to the house. Also I don't want to deal with emptying it. If they litter I charge them. It's their job to read the rules tho you're right that I can make them more clear. Saying "but I didn't read the contract!" is not a valid legal way out of a contract. If you sign it and it's a valid contract you're bound to it, whether you read it or not. I'm not their mom. This may be a nasty lesson for them but I imagine it will stick!
Sheryl
Sheryl a year ago
Of course it's not. But a lot of guests don't really understand that their payment to you for accommodations presented with specific rules IS actually a contract. While you may be right on the back end if they violate your rules, I think it's better to "help" guests not do so.
And I understand your point about the smoking stand. Maybe an ashtray for outside? Just offering a suggestion for a place for them to put their smoking debris. To me, not having any is like not having trash cans as a place to put the trash. Smokers instinctively drop their butts on the ground - - - especially if there is nowhere else to put them .
You know, another option is NO SMOKING. If you are a non-smoker and find it disgusting, why not eliminate all possibilities!
Reply Like 2 replies
Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
I really think that even if we make the house no smoking at all we'll still have people breaking that rule. So I'd rather define the parameters right away. So far I've never found a butt on the ground near the house. So it's not that big a problem. So far everyone has managed to make it to the dumpster in the alley with their trash.
Gretchen
Gretchena year ago
Oh, and that's also why we make everyone sign a contract. So they know they are entering a legal arrangement. I think many people don't really read it so that's a problem but I don't know how to overcome that one. It clearly says that they can't use the fireplace but this time of your I'd say about half of people call me to ask if they can have a fire. So they aren't reading it for sure. Also, we have a welcome letter with some emergency information, a quick recap of the most important rules and the code to get into the house. A few people email me back saying I forgot to send the code. It's there, it's just buried in the text so they have to actually read it to find the code.
kat
kata year ago
I'm just going to back up here -- because this pertains to my situation too. If a guest cancels on you after staying just one night (or less) then are they unable to leave a review? That would be a relief. I've been waiting to see if these people who canceled were going to leave a review.
Reply Like
Deborah